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Tanking talent build


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#1 Monedula

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:04 AM

I just dinged 80 and my guild is planning naxx 25 on Sunday. Very likely I will be tanking. But since my gear is not that super yet (I had t4/bage gear before WotLK) I want to have the best tanking spec available.

This is the spec I would prefer:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Here I put 4 the last 4 "free" talents I had in rend and tear since I find maul is a really nice thing to use on groups of mobs which you are mainly swiping. and have more rage then you want.

However since my defense is not the best (and I should really look towards surviving a bossfight) I might want to remove some offensive abilities and rather invest in defensive ones.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Because Predatory Instincts is for catform only and assuming Infected Wounds does not apply to bosses, Feral Agression (which is nearly worthless in bearform in my opinion) is the best talent since it at least has some defensive ability.

At this moment I don't think I should be looking at threat done, TPS. DPSsers should take care not to overagro me. A misdirect can help, and those hunters doing 3.5k TPS... well let them FD then.

I would appreciate any input on this.

#2 Torosso

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:45 AM

Unless you have a warrior Thunderclapping for you then you should have infected wounds, as it does effect bosses (or should).

My current planned MT build is something like this

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

#3 Jone

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:31 AM

Does anyone know yet how much AP a boss has? In previous expansions, fully removing boss AP cut incoming damage 30% -- this used to require two points in imp demo shout.

We don't have to worry about added AP from Recklessness because FF is better, but it's unrealistic to expect a warlock to use CoW instead of a damaging curse, and given the shout strength is the same for warriors and druids this expansion, it's quite likely you'll need to keep this up in raids with no warriors of appropriate spec. Infected wounds's attack speed debuff, on the other hand, can be replaced by warriors, paladins, or death knights when specced appropriately, so it's more likely you'll be able to talk your co-tanks into speccing it if you can't find the points yourself.

#4 Grubsnik

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:23 AM

As people have pointed out, you've skipped both Feral Agression and Infected Wounds. Both offer redundant debuffs that drastically lower incoming damage. If you have those covered from other people in the raid, no problem, otherwise i'd suggest dropping the resto-tree points to get those.

You haven't told if you are going MT or OT/DPS.

Primal tenacity might also be a good idea to pick up, while 30% less damage while stunned might seem situational, it will always apply in situations where you are stunned, meaning a 95% chance of getting hit on every boss-swing.

#5 Abradix

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:04 AM

There isn't really one set 25man MT raid spec, because it depends on the rest of your raid. This is my base spec, which has just one point free for primal tenacity or feral aggression or basically whatever you want. You could take out Imp LotP and go for Infected Wounds, but in my case there will be TC up on every boss anyway, making Infected Wounds a waste.

Having said that, Rend and Tear and Maul are not "Nice", they're borderline overpowered and Maul will be the source of 50-60% of your threat and damage on any fight you main tank, making RnT much more powerful then Master Shapeshifter (5 points for a 2% damage buff per point, vs 5 points for 0.8% damage buff per point if you include the 3 points in Natural Shapeshifter).

#6 Monedula

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 01:56 PM

I did not say MT or OT because I simply don;t know.
Though new at raid tanking in this expansion I will most likely be OT.

Thanks for pointing out which talents are pretty useless if you are in a raid (other debuffs will be stronger).
All that remains is to know whether I'll be stunned a lot in Naxx 25 to get those last points into primal tenacity or not.

#7 Deathwing

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:25 PM

I believe it only takes one rank in improved demo shout/feral aggression to reach the AP cap on mobs.

#8 Caniki

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:45 PM

This is what I'm running right now, and I'm pretty happy with it. I usually OT with a Warrior MT, but like having Infected Wounds and Improved LOTP for questing and 5-mans. Five points in Furor is wasting one point, and I like having Improved Mark of the Wild, so I keep just three points there. It's never been an issue for me.

#9 Stigmata

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:50 PM

I believe it only takes one rank in improved demo shout/feral aggression to reach the AP cap on mobs.


Any details on this, I currently have 5 points in it for the increased debuff, I would hate to think im wasting 4 talent points.

#10 Cluey

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:37 PM

Here I put 4 the last 4 "free" talents I had in rend and tear since I find maul is a really nice thing to use on groups of mobs which you are mainly swiping. and have more rage then you want.

Others have commented on specs and different talent points but I thought I would add a bit to this.
Rend and Tear increases damage on bleeding targets.
In a raid AoE situation there is a chance of a bleed being up via one of the warriors with Deep Wounds Whirl Winding but keep this in mind when choosing the talent.
In smaller group settings the chances are fairly high that the mobs Maul is hitting won't be bleeding, the talent is still worth taking if you ever expect to do DPS in cat form on a tanked mob though.

This aspect of our 45-50 point talent does irk me a bit and I thought I would bring it up.

I believe it only takes one rank in improved demo shout/feral aggression to reach the AP cap on mobs.

Believing something doesn't make it true, I and many others would like to know what leads you to think this.

#11 Abradix

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:44 PM

The bleed aspect of Rend and Tear nothing but an extremely minor inconveniance. There's hunter pets with rake, rogues with garrote, warriors with deep wounds and of course there is lacerate. If you're going to be discussing tanking builds then let's not assume it's for 50k health mobs in a 5man group because you could tank that with a full moonkin spec if you would really want to.

#12 Deathwing

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:21 PM

Believing something doesn't make it true, I and many others would like to know what leads you to think this.


I had read it here somewhere. I had hoped my comment would provoke someone to post a link because I just spent a half hour trying to find it myself.

Unless boss AP has jumped considerably, you won't need 5/5. Boss AP was ~300 at level 60 and ~340 at 70. The only reason people went 5/5 before is effectively gone.

#13 Regigulus

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:35 PM

My build, which is more focused on tanking.. I'm open to feedback. I have ~150 experise rating (15 experise) from gear alone. So I bi-passed Primal Precision. My build didn't fit Shreding Attacks either, but seems like a minor loss.

#14 kalbear

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:45 PM

My build, which is more focused on tanking.. I'm open to feedback. I have ~150 experise rating (15 experise) from gear alone. So I bi-passed Primal Precision. My build didn't fit Shreding Attacks either, but seems like a minor loss.

Unless you are maxed out on expertise - and by maxed out, I mean you have enough to negate parries entirely - skipping primal precision for master shapeshifter will be a net loss. Each point of primal precision gives 1.25% fewer parries and dodges. Even if it is 1.25% fewer parries, that means each point is worth 1.25% more hits. Which is basically the same as 1.25% more DPS and TPS (not exactly due to FF not being part of it, static effects, and keeping lacerate stacks up - but closer). If you are below the dodge cap (and with your current gear, you are), you're looking at 2.5% damage per point. And you are reducing the chance of parry gib by 1.25% per point as well, so it adds some mitigational effect.

Master shapeshifter increases your physical damage by 2% per point, but it costs 3 useless points to get there. Even if you didn't factor in those three points, it still is not as good as primal precision on a per-point basis.

#15 Nightstryde

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:42 PM

Question?

Looking to be a Off tank /dps in raid settings. Is thick hide needed attribute anymore? Since the massive down grade in druid armor and the lack of high armor items for druids these days makes beleive that armor is very low on the totem poll. Agi and STa seem to be the rising fad that everyone will strive to obtain.

#16 kalbear

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:44 PM

Looking to be a Off tank /dps in raid settings. Is thick hide needed attribute anymore? Since the massive down grade in druid armor and the lack of high armor items for druids these days makes beleive that armor is very low on the totem poll. Agi and STa seem to be the rising fad that everyone will strive to obtain.

10% more overall armor is 10% more overall armor. Thick hide is a multiplier for all armor no matter the source. No thick hide would result in the loss of about 2000-3000 armor depending on your gear level.

Gearing for armor specifically is not big on the totem pole, but having a lot of it still is.

#17 Baggles

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 10:52 AM

Currently using this for 5 and 25-man tanking. I can't stress enough how little of an issue threat is at this point. You should reliably hold double the threat of your highest dps with no problem. What's good about this spec, also, is that it allows you to still do very high kitty dps. I have been top 5 on a number of 25-man encounters with this spec. You basically give up shred, which does hurt, but if you go with 2p t6, you just keep up SR, rake, rip, and mangle when you have the energy. Shred on clearcasts, and the extra CP allows for a bite in between generally (although it does not guarantee crit).

I just don't find R&T to be useful in a tanking situation. To be honest, the talent, especially as a 45-50 pt, lacks in general. Thoughts?

Also:

10% more overall armor is 10% more overall armor. Thick hide is a multiplier for all armor no matter the source. No thick hide would result in the loss of about 2000-3000 armor depending on your gear level.

Gearing for armor specifically is not big on the totem pole, but having a lot of it still is.


This is not entirely accurate.

Increases your Armor contribution from items by 10%.

(Thick Hide - Spell - World of Warcraft) so no, it is not flat overall armor contribution. It is only armor on items, not including base armor, or armor from stats. Although, the argument is sound: any tanking build should realistically take this talent, especially since armor is our bread and butter.

#18 Abradix

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 02:04 PM

I just don't find R&T to be useful in a tanking situation. To be honest, the talent, especially as a 45-50 pt, lacks in general. Thoughts?


I'll just go ahead and quote myself here.

Having said that, Rend and Tear and Maul are not "Nice", they're borderline overpowered and Maul will be the source of 50-60% of your threat and damage on any fight you main tank, making RnT much more powerful then Master Shapeshifter (5 points for a 2% damage buff per point, vs 5 points for 0.8% damage buff per point if you include the 3 points in Natural Shapeshifter).


To elaborate on that, you bothered to take Imp Shapeshifter, which is 5 points for a 4% damage buff, but think that Rend and Tear, an approximate 11% damage buff while tanking, isn't good enough. Here is a WWS to support that statement, and this was in horrible gear and a very low crit on Maul, with it being 10% under expected crit rate. Factor in that Maul is our best scaling attack, and will soon be 60-65% of our total damage, you cannot possibly say that Rend and Tear is too weak.

#19 geela234

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 06:53 PM

I've found that in most cases when I'm tanking appropriate level mobs I have a rage surplus. Maul is usually always up, making rend and tear invaluable. Its really a non issue, if anything I could get rid of omen, which is what most people did at 70.

Dumping points into natural and master shapeshifter is a waste of 5 talent points, aside from what Abradix has already stated I never change forms when tanking, and even if I did, it would be for a rebirth or innervate and right back to bear.

I'm assuming that the hesitancy towards Rend and Tear is because it only affects maul and isn't a broad 20% increase to dmg. Blizzard stated in there Wrath beta forms that they wanted each talent point to be about 1% damage increase which would make this more then worth the points spent and even a little over powered.

Other that that I really can't see any other way of proving Rend and Tears power, I will always have it in my build.

#20 Chiman

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 09:18 PM

Rend and Tear is amazing, in my opinion. Considering I usually mangle and toss a lacerate on Skull and X, my Mauls are through the roof. 30% extra damage from mangling, and the 20% from bleeding. Glyph of Mangle (goes without saying Glyph of Maul is a must) is pretty nice in this situation. For bosses, I stack 5 lacerates, and keep them up, swiping in between. In both 5/10/25-mans, rage is never an issue, I find myself almost never hitting with plain white damage. I might as well macro maul to every move. I'm consistently pushing between 1600-2000 DPS in heroics, with the majority, (about 60%) of the damage being from maul.




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