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#21 Baggles

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:35 AM

I'll just go ahead and quote myself here.



To elaborate on that, you bothered to take Imp Shapeshifter, which is 5 points for a 4% damage buff, but think that Rend and Tear, an approximate 11% damage buff while tanking, isn't good enough. Here is a WWS to support that statement, and this was in horrible gear and a very low crit on Maul, with it being 10% under expected crit rate. Factor in that Maul is our best scaling attack, and will soon be 60-65% of our total damage, you cannot possibly say that Rend and Tear is too weak.


Counterpoint: As an OT, I much prefer the spec I posted. As a MT, you will probably want R&T. The reason being, in a 5 or 10-man, you're doing a ton of swiping. R&T doesn't apply to swipe, and often putting up bleeds is a waste of time on trash. Moreover, unless you run with a second feral or an arms war, or a hunter with that specific pet, no one else is gonna bleed anything for you. On boss fights, your threat should be through the roof, and you suffer a very small damage penalty.

Here is a WWS of a KT kill; I dps'd to 40%, picked up all 4 adds. Now, obviously this isn't gospel because the numbers are clearly skewed (I didn't record the WWS, no idea why it picked up multiplied values for swipe and maul a couple of times) but even if you completely subtract out all of the skewed hits, I am still 4th or so.

Now, here is a WWS of dps on Sapphiron. This is a great OT spec because it allows you to still pull 3k+ dps even in non-ideal fight, and even allows you to switch rolls mid-fight.

I wish I had better reports to back it up, but it's been a week, so its hard to pull numbers right now. Plenty of recount parses back it up, though.

#22 lawl

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 01:31 PM

I had read it here somewhere. I had hoped my comment would provoke someone to post a link because I just spent a half hour trying to find it myself.

Unless boss AP has jumped considerably, you won't need 5/5. Boss AP was ~300 at level 60 and ~340 at 70. The only reason people went 5/5 before is effectively gone.


So how many points do I need in feral aggression to hit the AP reduction cap for bosses?

I'm look to spec the optimal tank build for survival, with threat and DPS being secondary.

1 point? 5 points?

What AP do level 80 bosses have?

#23 Azzog

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:22 PM

ok guys threat gen question. aprox. how much threat can a druid put out and is it still where druids can compete with warriors for MT spots. from a thraet generations stance in BC druids were kings agians all but a extremly good warrior with the gear to back him up. im wondering how the different tallent changes for warriors and druids and the redution in the amount of armor we are going to have is going to make a difference in out viablity as a tank and as a main tank.

Azzog-70 fury warrior
Darkbaer-70 feral druid

#24 david0925

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:58 AM

ok guys threat gen question. aprox. how much threat can a druid put out and is it still where druids can compete with warriors for MT spots. from a thraet generations stance in BC druids were kings agians all but a extremly good warrior with the gear to back him up. im wondering how the different tallent changes for warriors and druids and the redution in the amount of armor we are going to have is going to make a difference in out viablity as a tank and as a main tank.

Azzog-70 fury warrior
Darkbaer-70 feral druid


First of all, don't sign your posts. I'm almost convinced that's why you got infractions. Spell-checking your post will also be a good idea.

With that out of the way, the threat generation from all 4 tanking classes are insane right now. Your guild should simply choose the better player, or the one that can guarantee higher attendance to be the main tank. I personally prefer a OT role because our damage output is very high right now in a raid situation even with a full tanking spec, not to mention that unlike Sunwell, not very raid bosses offer main-tanking breaks to allow a druid to use his battle rez or innervate, effective neglecting that part of the class.

For druids that have already geared themselves to near armor cap (pretty much need neck, ring, and trinket slots with armor pieces), their mitigation right now is ridiculous. However, this will drop quite drastically when the armor patch is in.

#25 unitsinc

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 06:01 AM

First of all, don't sign your posts. I'm almost convinced that's why you got infractions. Spell-checking your post will also be a good idea.

With that out of the way, the threat generation from all 4 tanking classes are insane right now. Your guild should simply choose the better player, or the one that can guarantee higher attendance to be the main tank. I personally prefer a OT role because our damage output is very high right now in a raid situation even with a full tanking spec, not to mention that unlike Sunwell, not very raid bosses offer main-tanking breaks to allow a druid to use his battle rez or innervate, effective neglecting that part of the class.

For druids that have already geared themselves to near armor cap (pretty much need neck, ring, and trinket slots with armor pieces), their mitigation right now is ridiculous. However, this will drop quite drastically when the armor patch is in.


According to Rawr the highest geared druids will only be losing roughly 3% DR. I wouldn't say that that is too terribly drastic.

#26 Changer_executus

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 11:47 AM

I have now main tanked all content in this new expansion. As main tank i get priority on the gear i need so my mitigation and threat output have steadily improved in the last few weeks. As i started out with very low dodge when hitting level 80 (after getting few upgrades past SWP gear whilst leveling) i initially picked a spec that i felt would give me maximum survivability: Mitigation

However, i have started to notice that certain classes especially Mages and Warlocks who are now getting close to, if not at the hit cap (and are now stacking haste/crit) are starting to catch me up on threat after the first minute or two.

I now have 5 parts Dreamwalker and all the other items i could want except a decent tanking stick, so i have switched the 5 points in Feral Aggression for 5 points in Rend & Tear leaving me with this spec: Threat

The difference in TPS is really noticeable, and i didn't come close to having threat trouble on Heroic Malygos last night, even with casters in 100% damage increase zones.

Another great TPS boost i was using last night was bezerking when bloodlust was popped, this allowed me to spam mangle and maul on every cooldown for some really high threat figures, this gave me a massive lead over the dps even when they were in double damage increasing patches.

If threat becomes an issue again in the future i will look to use a spec with master shape shifter, although i will hate to spend 3 useless talent points to get to it.

#27 Harmonics

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:28 PM

Going to quote abradix from earlier:

Having said that, Rend and Tear and Maul are not "Nice", they're borderline overpowered and Maul will be the source of 50-60% of your threat and damage on any fight you main tank, making RnT much more powerful then Master Shapeshifter (5 points for a 2% damage buff per point, vs 5 points for 0.8% damage buff per point if you include the 3 points in Natural Shapeshifter).



Any tanking build where you are going to be tanking a single target needs to have rend and tear.

You can't call a planet Bob!

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You were missing the () at the end of Feral Charge (Bear), this is necessary otherwise WoW thinks you're trying to cast Feral Charge Rank Bear.


#28 Merendel

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 10:25 PM

Currently using this for 5 and 25-man tanking. I can't stress enough how little of an issue threat is at this point. You should reliably hold double the threat of your highest dps with no problem. What's good about this spec, also, is that it allows you to still do very high kitty dps. I have been top 5 on a number of 25-man encounters with this spec. You basically give up shred, which does hurt, but if you go with 2p t6, you just keep up SR, rake, rip, and mangle when you have the energy. Shred on clearcasts, and the extra CP allows for a bite in between generally (although it does not guarantee crit).

I just don't find R&T to be useful in a tanking situation. To be honest, the talent, especially as a 45-50 pt, lacks in general. Thoughts?


Mangle spam basically only works with the 2T6 bonus for being "Good" DPS. Without that set bonus the DPS will be much much lower. There was some math done on the talent preview mega thread but the gist of it was with ferocity imp mangle and 2T6 mangle comes out to similar DPE to shred at early level 80 gear but falls further behind as gear levels scale up. The stats on the 2 gear slots you are sacrificing for the bonus will also start hurting you more past the T7 level.

Honestly I think RnT would be a much better choice for points even in a tank spec over master shifter. While master shapeshifter does give you 4% more on swipe and mangle in addition to maul it will come out to less damage overall on a single target that you know will be bleeding. Yes threat is not an issue on a single target now but you will do more damage over the course of the boss fight. Additionally it will be better for your style of DPS in that spec. With a rotation revolving around mangle instead of shred for its damage you will have enough CP for a 5/5/5 FR/Rip/FB finisher cycle assuming 2T7 and the rip glyph. Raid buffed FB will almost always crit with RnT on a boss target that will be bleeding.

#29 renoreaper

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 09:11 AM

I'm usually 2nd OT (I prefer this role as often I get the possibility to shift out and CR or innervate a person, or even pop a tranq, there's also a lot of fights that don't require 3 tanks so I get to dps fairly often as well.).
So I'm currently going with this spec, I guess it's a bit unconvential and after reading some in here I have my doubts about not having primal precision.

What I've also noticed in practically every spec linked here is improved mangle, everyone seems to have it, I didn't take improved mangle, the talent just doesn't seems that great to me to be honest, sure having a mangle one gcd earlier is nice, but is it really that big of a TPS increase? I mean I lost my 2T6 a while back and from what I gathered here as you gear up the % of threat coming from maul goes up (so I'm assuming the % from mangle will go down?).
Furthermore I don't really use the -energycost on it as I don't have mangle in my dps rotation (since trauma is usually up).
I've not gotten feral agression and I'm probably going to drop infected wounds as well since one of the other tanks is specced for improved thunderclap and we have a dps warrior with 2/5 imp demoshout (is 2/5 enough though, seems nobody has been able to give a final answer about how much AP reduction you need on a boss nowadays).

After having read everything in here I'm considering speccing to something like this(well I might take one point out of predatory instincts and max primal precision) because I can rely on the other tanks for keeping up thunderclap wherever it matters (and with my current gear I should be able to survive fine in heroics now without infected wounds).

#30 Abradix

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:27 AM

Improved Mangle is around a 5% DPS boost for 3 points, with my WWS averaging around 20% of my damage coming from Mangle while tanking bosses. Additionally it increases the chance the mangle debuff stays on the target if you don't have a trauma warrior, which is probably the majority of raids but not your concern if you do have a trauma warrior in your raids.

Regarding your spec, it depends how much you value the tanking talents and how much you value the DPS part. Personally I question the value of Infected Wounds and Feral Instinct in your build, and would move that to 2/2 Primal Precision and 2/3 Imp Mangle. If you're looking for more DPS however, I'd invest in King of the Jungle instead.

Your second spec is a bit strange, in the sense that it takes away ALOT of DPS potential which you seem to want. For a pure bear spec it's alright, even though personally I don't value Infected Wounds and Primal Tenacity very high and would take Master Shapeshifter instead, with 1 point spare.

#31 renoreaper

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:54 AM

Your second spec is a bit strange, in the sense that it takes away ALOT of DPS potential which you seem to want. For a pure bear spec it's alright, even though personally I don't value Infected Wounds and Primal Tenacity very high and would take Master Shapeshifter instead, with 1 point spare.


Thanks for the fast feedback, the second spec I linked wasn't actually the one I had in mind :x.

As you can see I did move the point out of the infected wounds as there's not a lot of point because the other tank should be keeping up TC in raids. I'm just in doubt here really, on one hand I don't want to give up feral instinct because I feel it would nerf my ability to AOE tank by quite a bit (I usually do heroics with an unholy specced DK who's a bit of an aggrowhore, especially on AOE :P), on the other hand I think it might be good for me to pick up improved mangle instead to increase my singletarget threat, I think I'll spec to the build I linked in this post for tonight and will have a look at singletarget threat (mine as well as the other tanks and what the dps are putting out) to decide ... for now :)

#32 Polynices

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 07:07 PM

According to Rawr, mangle spam *does* work even without 2T6 if you have full improved mangle. Apparently that makes mangle cheap enough that the DPE is close enough to shred to be worth it. At least at my heroics/crafted ilvl 200 gearing.

A pure cat build may not have improved mangle and can just shred away but for a bear/cat OT build it's nice being able to skip shredding attacks and still do respectable DPS.

If Rawr has this all wrong, I'd like to know.

#33 gravehammer

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 05:38 PM

So how many points do I need in feral aggression to hit the AP reduction cap for bosses?

I'm look to spec the optimal tank build for survival, with threat and DPS being secondary.

1 point? 5 points?

What AP do level 80 bosses have?


So on my bear, which is an alt, I'd be looking at doing all the 5-man content, the 10 man as well, probably not much if any 25-man content. With this toon, I want a pure tank, and with threat generation being easy, I'm after the same priorities as lawl, survival first and threat and dps secondary. I'm also assuming I'd be the MT and would not want to count on a Tauren Warrior for thunder clap (infected wounds) nor any warrior for the demo shout.

#34 kalbear

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 06:48 PM

I don't think for 5 man content any amount of feral aggression is necessary.

Right now, I doubt any is really necessary for 10-man due to the ease, but how much will actually be good is unknown. In the future, chances are that some will be very valuable.

#35 Muck

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:35 PM

In my oppinion, it’s more usefull to spec 2/2 Imp MotW and leave it with 3/5 Furor. If you are the only druid in the raid (which is usually in 5/10 instances), this would be another buff for all 3 tanking aspects. You may lose some comfort because sometimes you don`t get the 10 rage, but you can easily pay the mana for reswitching until you get the rage.

#36 drsensimilla

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 07:21 PM

I have tested a lot and for MTing i am using this spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It offers high avoidance, dont have any aggro problems ( and we have ppl keeping over 5k dps )

This one i am using for OTing, where i have to tank more then DPS

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

#37 Inaiwae

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 01:47 PM

Unless you are maxed out on expertise - and by maxed out, I mean you have enough to negate parries entirely - skipping primal precision for master shapeshifter will be a net loss. Each point of primal precision gives 1.25% fewer parries and dodges. Even if it is 1.25% fewer parries, that means each point is worth 1.25% more hits. Which is basically the same as 1.25% more DPS and TPS (not exactly due to FF not being part of it, static effects, and keeping lacerate stacks up - but closer). If you are below the dodge cap (and with your current gear, you are), you're looking at 2.5% damage per point. And you are reducing the chance of parry gib by 1.25% per point as well, so it adds some mitigational effect.

Master shapeshifter increases your physical damage by 2% per point, but it costs 3 useless points to get there. Even if you didn't factor in those three points, it still is not as good as primal precision on a per-point basis.


In my opinion, practical usefulness of Primal Precision very low at the moment when expertise is abundant on our gear and threat is not an issue. I am running with 7% dodge/parry reduction in tank gear, and i have no problems on Malygos with raid standing in double patch.

Regarding cat form: If you go for Primal Precision, you will have troubles staying under dodge cap. Our gear has nice hit as well, you will not miss finishers, so the other part of the talent is wasted as well. So primal precision brings almost nothing to cat form.

Moreover, even if trash is not as important as bosses, primal precision brings almost nothing there as non-boss mobs have way lower parry chance (i believe its the same as dodge chance, so 5% + 0.2 per level, but i am not 100% sure here). So Master Shapeshifter is better for trash clearing as well.

Therefore i think taking Master Shapeshifter is better choice (considering time spend in cat) than Primal Precision. If you can invest those 3 extra talents.

edit: the above is valid once you reach cca 6% dodge/parry reduction and when you are close to hit cap (7%+ in my opinion).

#38 Melthu

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:00 PM

kalbear gave you the facts already: on a per-point basis Primal Precision is better for threat/dps than Master Shapeshifter by a factor of 1.25% to 0.8%, if you're dodge capped (more, of course, if you are not). When you also consider the side benefits of expertise, namely fewer parry hasted swings and smoother threat generation, PP comes out way ahead of MS.

#39 Inaiwae

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:22 PM

kalbear gave you the facts already: on a per-point basis Primal Precision is better for threat/dps than Master Shapeshifter by a factor of 1.25% to 0.8%, if you're dodge capped (more, of course, if you are not). When you also consider the side benefits of expertise, namely fewer parry hasted swings and smoother threat generation, PP comes out way ahead of MS.


Dps difference in bear is not important (and small). In cat form, MS gives you way more given standard gear setup. Smoother threat generation brings you nothing if you are way ahead of dps classes even without it. The only thing i agree with is fewer hasted swings, but in my opinion damage in cat matters more than occasional hasted swing.

#40 sarf

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:43 AM

Dps difference in bear is not important (and small). In cat form, MS gives you way more given standard gear setup. Smoother threat generation brings you nothing if you are way ahead of dps classes even without it. The only thing i agree with is fewer hasted swings, but in my opinion damage in cat matters more than occasional hasted swing.

I think there's a difference in outlook here - most people in this thread are looking from a tanking perspective mainly. As a tank, an occasional hasted swing is significant. From a hybrid tank/dps perspective, it may not be. Just make sure your healers are OK with your damage profile and it should all be good.

The hybrid builds will hopefully be redundant once dualspecs are put in (when/if that happens).
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