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#41 kalbear

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:16 PM

For hybrid there are a number of talents that you should likely take, but I'm still not sure that primal precision gets skipped.

Master shapeshifter gives 4% crit, which is a big bonus for cats. 4% damage for bears is also good but not particularly significant nowadays. It costs 5 talent points though, and that's pretty big. I personally would rather have imp mangle + primal precision for a hybrid build, skipping infected wounds and NS/MS. That may not end up being better DPS for cats, but it will be significantly better TPS and survivability for bears. I can see a reasonable argument for taking NS/MS in that situation, however.

For pure tanking though, the argument stands; NS/MS is not nearly as good on a TPS level or a mitigation level as primal precision is, especially if you have to trade something like imp mangle for it.

#42 Soultrigger

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 01:21 PM

I now have 5 parts Dreamwalker and all the other items i could want except a decent tanking stick, so i have switched the 5 points in Feral Aggression for 5 points in Rend & Tear leaving me with this spec: Threat


Charge,

My spec is basically what you are using, I just swap Primal Precision with Brutal Impact. The question I have though, looking at most specs on this thread, why is it no one takes brutal impact? I don´t know, of course, there are others classes who will spell interrupt in raid and so on, but why would we give up on that utility for 10 expertise? (I mean, we have more expertise on gear nowadays more than anything else).

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#43 Abradix

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 02:23 PM

Because the "utility" of Brutal Impact is completely wasted in raids, whereas 10 expertise is extremely valueable for both TPS and surviveability.

Expertise IS infact quite useful. Take this wws for example. Physical damage done by Sapphiron to me, 435k, of which the average hit was 7628. 20 of my attacks got parried, with dodge at 50% that means I got hit by 10 extra hits during the entire fight due to parries, amounting for a total of 76k damage, out of a total 435k of physical damage or 560k total damage.

This was with around 9% parry, so reducing that to 6.5% parry would've saved me 3 hits, 23k damage less taken, that's almost a 5% reduction. Expertise value differs per boss, because some like Patchwerk aren't affected by parry haste, and obviously parry is alot more devestating on bosses that hit very hard yet slow compared to fast, weak hitting bosses. But all in all, Primal Precision IS an avoidance talent that you should always take if you intend on tanking in raid instances.

On top of that, a parry hasted swing is extra burst damage which is generally speaking the reason tanks die, we want to reduce the chance of the worst case scenario by as much as possible, and reducing the chances of parry hasted swing is a big part of that.

#44 kalbear

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:21 PM

20 of my attacks got parried, with dodge at 50% that means I got hit by 10 extra hits during the entire fight due to parries, amounting for a total of 76k damage, out of a total 435k of physical damage or 560k total damage.

That's not entirely accurate; a boss doesn't get an extra swing. They get at best a 40% haste boost, and at worst a 0% haste boost. Average tends to be 30% or so. That's still basically 6 extra attacks that you took that whole time, or 3 extra attacks that landed - and they happened to be bursty.

Mostly, 10 expertise is quite a lot of threat and would be equivalent to 320 expertise rating. It's usually to your advantage to turn talent points into stat values when they're that high. Brutal Impact is very situational and often completely useless, and even talented having one spell interrupt every 30 seconds is not reliable enough to matter. If a fight needed interrupts, you'd want something like a warrior instead.

#45 Gingershnaps

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:39 PM

3/3 Feral Instinct might become mandatory now for AoE tanking


Swipe Change

The change for Swipe to generate an additional 50% threat is now live. Please let us know how it goes.

#46 Monedula

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 03:21 AM

3/3 Feral Instinct might become mandatory now for AoE tanking


Swipe Change

The change for Swipe to generate an additional 50% threat is now live. Please let us know how it goes.


You were tanking naxx 25 trash without Feral Instincts? Ever had 2 or 3 groups in naxx 10? How did you handle Gothik the Harvester? Without a doubt this is one of the pure 100% must have talents for tanking in 3.0.3 already!

#47 Eilanelena

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 07:33 AM

Hi,

I saw someone raise the Feral Agression 5/5 or 3/5 question, and I hoped to find more on this topic but no one seems to have tested it yet, including warriors. Does anyone have more info ?

Concerning FI, i tanked Nax from A to Z without it and never had trouble keeping aggro on anything, but with the new changes it seems quite sexy. To me FI was more a matter of taste. But I'm looking on focusing more on a bear spec, something similar to this.

Kalon did some maths about the new swipe threat :

Source : ThinkTank

Swipe damage: (AP * .063 + 108) * Naturalist bonus * feral instinct bonus * armor penalty * (1 + crit chance) * 4pT6 bonus
lacerate damage: (AP*.01+88)*Naturalist bonus * armor penalty * (1 + crit chance) * 2pt7 bonus
lacerate DOT damage: (AP*.01+64)*stack size * naturalist * mangle * 2pt7 bonus

Swipe DPS: swipe damage /1.5
lacerate DPS: lacerate damage / 1.5
lacerate DOT DPS: lacerate dot damage / 3.0

swipe TPS: swipe DPS * 29/14 * 1.5
lacerate TPS: 29/14*(lacerage damage+1031)/ (2* 1.5)
lacerate DOT TPS: lacerate DOT DPS * 29/14 / 2

Based on a 70% armor reduction from bosses, here are the results:

For AP 4735, crit 30%, no T6 and 2pT7 I get the following:
swipe TPS: 1095.2
lacerate TPS: 786.1
lacerate DOT TPS: 282.5
total lacerate TPS: 1076.045


Breakdown : for max TPS, swipe. For max DPS, keep a lacerate stack up and swipe whenever you can.

So, my question would be, is a spec only taking 3/5 Feral Agression optimal or not ? I'm mostly pairing with a Tankadin or a DK, so no friendly warrior around. This post was the only one I found concerning itself with that topic.

#48 Melthu

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 02:00 PM

Hi,

I saw someone raise the Feral Agression 5/5 or 3/5 question, and I hoped to find more on this topic but no one seems to have tested it yet, including warriors. Does anyone have more info ?


I was starting to test this but was beaten to the punch: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1011393

In short it looks like we need the full 5 points in order to fully remove boss AP. I'm glad that Blizzard picked up on this issue in WotLK, as having the optimal number of points for a talent be less than the max is quite a poor mechanic.

#49 geela234

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 03:03 PM

3/3 Feral Instinct might become mandatory now for AoE tanking


Swipe Change

The change for Swipe to generate an additional 50% threat is now live. Please let us know how it goes.



I took a second look at this talent myself when building a hybrid/OT build. Swipe just didn't seem as useful to me. But, After running Naxx 10 man I have to say it ends up being very good. Aside from the obvious utility for AOE tanking, I find myself using swipe more often in my rotation if I already have lacerate stacked. Mangle/Swipe/Swipe/Lacerate, this is of course with mauls always up, and switching out swipes for demo roar and FFF as needed. Granted this might not be the best TPS, I don't know the numbers on lacerate vs swipe, but it dishes out more damage. And when you already out Threat your dps, more damage is what you should be working towards.

#50 Monedula

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:15 PM

Mangle/Swipe/Swipe/Lacerate, this is of course with mauls always up, and switching out swipes for demo roar and FFF as needed. Granted this might not be the best TPS, I don't know the numbers on lacerate vs swipe, but it dishes out more damage. And when you already out Threat your dps, more damage is what you should be working towards.

If you got improved mangle which is something a druid tank can use very well too, the rotation should become something like:
(if you already have a 5 stack lacerate)
mangle/lacerate/swipe
mangle/swipe/swipe
mangle/swipe/swipe
And repeat.

Also It depends what your AP is.
Some math can be found at:
ThinkTank: [Druid] Swipe is 50% more fun
And this way is probably the best TPS and DPS when you have enough AP

#51 geela234

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:51 PM

After reading the article that Monedula poster, seems like lacerate is done for. Which means look forward to druids getting a Devastate like ability that keeps produces lacerates, giving it a reason to exist. Looks like Bear tanking just got a little more boring.

#52 Changer_executus

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:04 PM

After todays hot fix, Feral Instinct has gone from being a really nice talent - to a must have talent for any sort of tanking.

The changed threat of swipe was really needed as i was beginning to get seriously concerned about Feral threat especially with multi mob packs (like the Sartharion trash). What i found this reset was that even when i get to the pack first and get initial aggro with a Maul/Swipe combo the Warrior or Deathknight would always steal all targets (except primary aggro mob) from me really fast.

Death knight threat seems extremely high at the moment once they are in endgame gear, and even more worryingly it is applied extremely quickly to all mobs in range. Making them (in my opinion) the new kings of AOE tanking - this change will hopefully help us keep up with then at least.

I have not had a problem with single target threat since picking up 'Rend & Tear' so this buff was not really needed in that respect, but hopefully the times that i do manage to fit swipe into my MT rotation will make up for the small threat loss due to the upcoming Mangle change.

In summary i couldn't imaging a tanking build without Feral Instinct now.

#53 EuStormrageFeralDruid

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:05 AM

Unless you have a warrior Thunderclapping for you then you should have infected wounds, as it does effect bosses (or should).

My current planned MT build is something like this

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator




Did you go for that build or did you change some stuff to it. The reason I ask is because it kinda surprises me you invested points in Rend & Tear while I don't have it and hold aggro with ease. I am aiming as a MT spec which at some points still will be used as OT because of mechanics. I noticed you avoided a pure mitigation talent - Primal Tenacity - and from what I've learned untill now (most heroics / naxx 10 / naxx 25 and other raids) that being stunned happens quite often.
The rest is more based on how you play the game and how you fill that in with talents is mainly a choice of playing style.

Here you can see what my talents are and I'm happy with it...and the guild healers too!
The World of Warcraft Armory

#54 Korhaug

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:31 AM

Here you can see what my talents are and I'm happy with it...and the guild healers too!
The World of Warcraft Armory


I have several comments on your build:

  • You have 2 points in Intensity. I can't imagine what you'd need the instant rage generation for that shifting to bearform wouldn't give you.
  • No Survival Instincts. For a tank build? Really?
  • 1 point in Shredding Attacks. If you want to dps, take 2. If not, don't take any.
  • No Rend And Tear. This is a hugh increase to your main source of dps and threat in bear form (Maul). You need it in any serious tanking build. You can shift the points from cat-focused dps talents (Imp Mangle, KOTJ, Shredding Attacks) or secondary mitigation talents (Primal Tenacity, Infected Wounds), depending if you're angling for MT or OT position.


#55 Abradix

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:47 AM

Did you go for that build or did you change some stuff to it. The reason I ask is because it kinda surprises me you invested points in Rend & Tear while I don't have it and hold aggro with ease. I am aiming as a MT spec which at some points still will be used as OT because of mechanics. I noticed you avoided a pure mitigation talent - Primal Tenacity - and from what I've learned untill now (most heroics / naxx 10 / naxx 25 and other raids) that being stunned happens quite often.
The rest is more based on how you play the game and how you fill that in with talents is mainly a choice of playing style.

Here you can see what my talents are and I'm happy with it...and the guild healers too!
The World of Warcraft Armory


Primal Tenacity is pretty much useless in raids other then Maexxna, KotJ is a cat talent that's also barely if ever used for bear, and as Korhaug pointed out, 1/2 Shredding attacks and 2/3 Intensity are both wasted. Having said that - Survival Instincts and Rend and Tear are pretty much a must. The mindset that you only need to do enough threat to keep it off the DPS is somewhat outdated, because it's also part of your job to do as much DPS as you can while tanking, and R&T is absolutely godly for that.

#56 EuStormrageFeralDruid

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 12:49 PM

I have several comments on your build:

  • You have 2 points in Intensity. I can't imagine what you'd need the instant rage generation for that shifting to bearform wouldn't give you.
  • No Survival Instincts. For a tank build? Really?
  • 1 point in Shredding Attacks. If you want to dps, take 2. If not, don't take any.
  • No Rend And Tear. This is a hugh increase to your main source of dps and threat in bear form (Maul). You need it in any serious tanking build. You can shift the points from cat-focused dps talents (Imp Mangle, KOTJ, Shredding Attacks) or secondary mitigation talents (Primal Tenacity, Infected Wounds), depending if you're angling for MT or OT position.




Well, if I don't use Intensity I run dry on rage quite fast at the beginning stage of a fight. The amount of threat is just enough to keep aggro though at that point but I still like to have some spare rage left. Once I get to the second cycle I throw in mauls more often because then my rage is at a point that it almost never runs dry and where I keep progressing further and further away in means of threat so Rend and Tear I realy don't need for it. I do can understand Abradix's view on that matter but at the moment we didn't realy encounter any problems in lack of dps so I'll stick without rend & tear. The point in Shredding Attacks is just to lower the cost on my lacerate even though it ain't that big it still is helpfull.

But I totaly disagree on the use of primal tenacity. There are alot more fights where you get stunned. I do admitt you can discuss on how much impact it has but I rather have that 30% bonus to mitigation at that point then never have it at all...even it's being stunned at a boss that actualy doesn't hit hard. The fact I don't get any threat issues and my mitigation seems to be maxed according with the present gear and talents I dare to say I chose a good build and I'm pretty sure this build will offer me the chance to be a viable tank in end game content. This is ofcourse without taking in Abradix's comment because what he says is indeed a very good angle towards tanking and beyond the normal perspective to it. Nevertheless I'll stick to less damage and more mitigation with some rage control given by talents because thats the way I feel most comfortable with while tanking.
Every build has it's up and downsides but mitigation is in my opinion the first and most important aspect. And thats why I asked him why he didn't go for Primal Tenacity?

#57 Abranor

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 01:10 PM

Well, if I don't use Intensity I run dry on rage quite fast at the beginning stage of a fight.


Hmm, not sure what to say on this. I never really run into the problem where I've run dry on rage, I'm not sure what you could be doing differently than I but I must say that this is not a problem.


But I totaly disagree on the use of primal tenacity. There are alot more fights where you get stunned

I'm not sure what fights your talking about, care to elaborate? As far as I know there are very few fights that matter where you will be stunned and or feared, Maexxna being the only one I can think of off the top of my head, and heroics don't do enough damage that it would matter. Trash doesn't matter, if your getting owned on trash, you or your raid are doing it wrong.

As far as wanting to use this build to offer you "the chance to be a viable tank in endgame content".... uh, no Survival Instincts and you want qualify this as an endgame build?

There is more that I could say here, but I'll leave it to the others.

#58 Melthu

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:37 PM

But I totaly disagree on the use of primal tenacity. There are alot more fights where you get stunned. I do admitt you can discuss on how much impact it has but I rather have that 30% bonus to mitigation at that point then never have it at all...even it's being stunned at a boss that actualy doesn't hit hard. The fact I don't get any threat issues and my mitigation seems to be maxed according with the present gear and talents I dare to say I chose a good build and I'm pretty sure this build will offer me the chance to be a viable tank in end game content. This is ofcourse without taking in Abradix's comment because what he says is indeed a very good angle towards tanking and beyond the normal perspective to it. Nevertheless I'll stick to less damage and more mitigation with some rage control given by talents because thats the way I feel most comfortable with while tanking.
Every build has it's up and downsides but mitigation is in my opinion the first and most important aspect. And thats why I asked him why he didn't go for Primal Tenacity?


That is simply not true. Maexxna is the only raid boss that stuns the main tank and there are none that involve fear, which makes Primal Tenacity useful for 1 boss fight in the game.

#59 EuStormrageFeralDruid

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:49 PM

Hmm, not sure what to say on this. I never really run into the problem where I've run dry on rage, I'm not sure what you could be doing differently than I but I must say that this is not a problem.


I'm not sure what fights your talking about, care to elaborate? As far as I know there are very few fights that matter where you will be stunned and or feared, Maexxna being the only one I can think of off the top of my head, and heroics don't do enough damage that it would matter. Trash doesn't matter, if your getting owned on trash, you or your raid are doing it wrong.

As far as wanting to use this build to offer you "the chance to be a viable tank in endgame content".... uh, no Survival Instincts and you want qualify this as an endgame build?

There is more that I could say here, but I'll leave it to the others.


Survival Instincts. Hehe, I had numereous discussion about that on our guild forum. I'll try to explain why I think it completely utterly sucks :P

In short, what makes that talent great is the fact you gain health. What it makes dangerous and in my opinion dangerous is the fact you loose that amount of health in an instant afterwards. Now, when I play I try to keep track of more things then only my personal build and the fact I'm a tank. I mean with this I also try to think of ways how I can come forward to our healers needs.
There are 2 things I do for that. First I never or the never start with an enrage as you will probably will do. If I do I will have to throw in a barskin and then i'm on a cooldown on it while I actualy pprefer to use where I need it more (could ofcourse be the cooldown is over by then but thats not something I can be sur of and thus rely on). If I don't use barskin while enraging I'll stress my healers more and I just want to make it as comfortable as possible for them. Secondly, you can argue that throwing in the Survival Instincts would come forward to that demand of making it as comfortable as possible for our healers and let them sit back and relax (figure of speak). Well, in most cases you will use the extra healtth when it gets critical and in most cases that means when the end of the fight is getting closer and nearer. At that point the healers mana will probably be on a low level too. So at that point the extra health seems welcome. Well, I wonder how that healer feels about it when suddenly that amount of heallth you gained suddenly disappears again? No more control, panic, etc. No, then I rather have it more smooth and controlled. Go for the trinket that gives the extra amount of healt when you use it's abilty for it because that guarantees you you don't loose that amount of health afterwards again and thus is a far better compensation in my opinion for Survival Instincts. And by the way, if health realy is an issue try to search for the spots to throw in more stamina. Think many players focus too hard on the numbers and less on the bigger picture and that is you are there as a group so play as a group and exploit every benefit you can get from eachother instead of all relying on that single ability that ain't as great as everyone likes to point out...again in my opinion (i'm far from all knowing but I do have my own thoughts and dare to speak them....even if they go against everything else thats being written) :P

Now, all have great xmas celebrations and I hope we can go further on this after a few days.

Laters

#60 Korhaug

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:59 PM

You should not be having rage problems. If you are, this is a problem that cannot be solved by speccing into Intensity. You should re-examine how much rage you get and how you use it. For the same reason you do not need Shredding Attacks for cheaper lacerate - the difference is negligible (this is not the case for Shred).

As many others have commented, you do not need Primal Tenacity. Stuns and fears were a significant issue in TBC, but this is not the case in the current Wrath raiding content.

Survival Instincts. Hehe, I had numereous discussion about that on our guild forum. I'll try to explain why I think it completely utterly sucks...


You are wrong. In several ways.

Survival Instincts is an emergency button. You use it when you are about to die, to buy your healers the extra time they need to heal you up. You can also use it near the end of the fight to get yourself a bigger health buffer, but that's not what it's for and unless the boss hits progressively harder (Gruul, Kel'thuzad adds) this is usually not a good idea.

Your healers should be aware of what this ability is, and how to react. I recommend building a macro that announces it's use (mine yells "Last Stand", which is the equivalent warrior ability).

Emergencies happen. Emergency buttons save your life. Choosing not to use them means you are dying when you could have avoided your death. Staying alive is your job. I really don't think I can put it in simpler terms.




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