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Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3)


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#1 Cally

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:40 PM

Abstract

A quick summary of the rogue theorycrafting work to date for Wrath of the Lich King. This
guide is a rough compilation of various posts made on the forums concerning rogue PVE dps.
Contributions made by Vulajin, Aldriana, Tinwhisker, Enova, drumbum, Shaker, spOOn, chalon,
Snowcrasher, Mavanas, and others from the rogue community.

If in doubt of any of the information posted here, please use the spreadsheet.

Read Aldriana's 3.3 Rogue FAQ for a quick primer.


Spreadsheets

Most the information posted in this guide is derived from the following spreadsheets.
Please use these spreadsheets for a more accurate approach.

Aldriana's Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets
Mavanas' Rogue DPS Simulation Spreadsheet


Talent Specs

[table=head]Spec|Talents
Combat|20/51/0
Mutilate|51/18/2


Rotation, Weapon Speeds, and Poisons

The information posted below is just a quick and general outline of common strategies. Results
may differ for various armor and weapon combinations. Please use the spreadsheet for a more
accurate approach.

Originally posted by Tinwhisker.

PvE Mutilate, fast and flawed advice
Highest DPS dagger mainhand, have at least one fast dagger in either hand.
Fastest dagger - Deadly Poison, Other dagger - Instant Poison.

Priority:
* Ensure that there is a bleed (ie. Rupture, Deep Wounds, Rend) on the target.
* Start up Hunger for Blood.
* Start up Slice and Dice however you please, really.
* Use vanish whenever possible for Overkill buff.

1. Keep HFB up.
2. Keep SnD up (mainly via Envenom).
3. 4+ combo point Envenom.
4. ToT when off cooldown, especially with 2pc T10.

PvE Combat, fast and flawed advice
Mainhand a sword/axe, fist or mace weapon of generally slow speed.
Offhand a sword/axe, dagger or fist weapon of generally fast speed.
Mainhand Instant Poison, Offhand Deadly Poison.

Priority:
* Start up Slice and Dice however you please, really.
* Use cooldowns whenever possible. Killing spree + blade flurry, blade flurry +
adrenaline rush can be used. Adrenaline rush + killing spree is not recommended
due to energy capping.

1. Keep SnD up, no matter what the number of combo points are.
2. 5 point Eviscerate.
3. ToT when off cooldown, especially with 2pc T10.

Read Aldriana's post on combat cycles here.


Combat Ratings

Combat Rating Table

[table=head]Rating|Conversion to 1%
Expertise|32.78998947
Hit|32.78998947
Spell Hit|26.23199272
Critical Strike|45.90598679
Haste|32.78998947
Armor Penetration|13.99572719
Agi to Crit|83.33333333

Expertise Rating

For 6.5% boss dodge chance (26/26 expertise):

26 expertise (214 expertise rating) to cap.
16 expertise (132 expertise rating) to cap for rogues with 2/2 Weapon Expertise.
13 expertise (107 expertise rating) to cap for combat human rogues wielding a sword/mace.
11 expertise (91 expertise rating) to cap for combat dwarf rogues wielding a mace.
11 expertise (91 expertise rating) to cap for combat orc rogues wielding a fist/axe.

The above numbers are the expertise numbers needed from gear to cap.
The character tooltip should read 26 expertise.

Hit Rating

Originally posted by drumbum.

The following values assume that you have 5/5 Precision and that you are attacking a level 83 mob (i.e., boss level).

[table=head]Extra buffs or debuffs|Specials|Poisons|White
None|99|315|722
Imp FF or Misery|99|237|722
Imp FF or Misery & Heroic Presence (draenei)|66|210|689

The following values assume that you have 2/5 Precision and that you are attacking a level 83 mob (i.e., boss level).

[table=head]Extra buffs or debuffs|Specials|Poisons|White
None|197|393|820
Imp FF or Misery|197|315|820
Imp FF or Misery & Heroic Presence (draenei)|164|289|787

For PVP, assuming no Precision:

[table=head]Specials|Poisons|White
164|105|787

Armor Penetration Rating

Armor penetration cap is not affected by target debuffs (ie. sunder/faerie fire)
so the caps are as follows:

100% armor penetration - 1400 armor pen rating
85% armor penetration (Mace spec) - 1190 armor pen rating

Critical Strike Cap

Crit Cap = 100% - 24% glancing blows - X% dodge chance - X% miss chance

where X% dodge chance is determined by expertise rating and X% miss chance is determined by hit rating.

Haste Cap

There is a haste cap but it is so high that is it not currently reachable with any
gear combination in the foreseeable future.

See Mavanas' post on the haste cap here.


Equivalence Points

Definition
Equivalence points (EP) is a way to convert various item attributes--such as
agility, crit rating, hit rating, and others--to a single attribute for comparison
purposes. For this guide, all DPS attributes will be converted to attack power (AP),
where 1 EP = 1 AP. To compare items, simply multiply the EP weight with the
desired item attribute and sum up the results.

For example, assuming Agi=2, Crit=1.5, AP=1:
Item 1 - 22 Agi, 40 Crit, 50 AP = (22*2) + (40*1.5) + 50 = 154
Item 2 - 43 Agi, 70 AP = (43*2) + 70 = 156

In this case, Item 2 is better.

Sample EP Weights
Assumes a reasonably T9 geared rogue with JC + one other 80 EP
profession. Combat/Mutilate EP values taken from Aldriana's spreadsheet.

Note: These EP weights are a SAMPLE only and gives a rough approximation
of what to look for in gear. EP weights will change with different gear sets. Also,
the sample EP weights are calculated with full 25 man raid buffs in mind.

[table=head]Stat|Combat EP|Mut EP
Str|1.1|1.1
Agi|1.96|1.94
|
AP|1|1
Crit|1.74|1.72
White Hit|1.86|1.84
Spell Hit|2.65|3.09
Exp|2.15|2.31
Haste|1.81|1.9
ArPen|2.02|1.19
|
T8 2/5|55.3|79.5
T8 4/5|0|0
T9 2/5|0|0
T9 4/5|81.5|50.8
T10 2/5|163.2|234.6
T10 4/5|40.5|74.6
|
MH DPS|5.82|3.28
OH DPS|2.45|2.46


Gear

Use the spreadsheets first and foremost for a more accurate approach to
gearing. The lists below use sample EP weights from Aldriana's spreadsheets
for a T9 to early T10 geared rogue.

T10 vs T9

The general consensus is that the 2pc T10 is very strong and that the 4pc T10
bonus is decent. The 4pc T9--if a rogue should have it--should be dropped
immediately once 2pc T10 is acquired.

Read Aldriana's FAQ for more details.

Best In Slot

Mavanas' T10 BIS Gear List can be found here.

Rankings

Combat
Mutilate

Trinkets

[table=head]Trinket|Combat EP|Mutilate EP
Tiny Abomination in a Jar (Heroic)|643|658
|583|593
Whispering Fanged Skull (Heroic)|659|667
Deathbringer's Will (Heroic)|786|604
|620|647
|694|532
|582|589
Death's Verdict (Heroic)|608|608
|543|543
|510|551
Dark Matter|437|447
|420|426
|402|400
|???|400
|496|379
|415|???

Onyxia Weapons

Rough estimates show that the ilvl 245 weapons dropped from Onyxia (ie. Vis'kag, Deathbringer)
are roughly equivalent to their ilvl 232 counterparts. For example,
is a sidegrade to .


Glyphs

[table=head]Spec|Major Glyphs|Minor Glyphs
Combat||
||
|
|
Mutilate||
||
|
|


Professions

Aldriana's post on professions.

[table=head]Profession|EP
* Engineering|80-89 (Mut), 90-99 (Combat)
Jewelcrafting|84+
Blacksmithing|80+
Leatherworking|80
Enchanting|80
Inscription|80
Alchemy|80

* Engineering EP is highly dependent on using bombs every cooldown. If bombs are
not used optimally, engineering EP can be below that of other professions.


Enchants

Regular Enchants
[table=head]Slot|Enchant
Weapon|Enchant Weapon - Berserking
|Enchant Weapon - Mongoose
Helm|
Shoulders|
Chest|Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats
Cloak|Enchant Cloak - Major Agility
|Enchant Cloak - Greater Speed
Bracers|Enchant Bracers - Greater Assault
Gloves|Enchant Gloves - Crusher
Legs|Icescale Leg Armor
Boots|Enchant Boots - Icewalker
|Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness
Belt|Eternal Belt Buckle

Profession Only Enchants
[table=head]Profession|Enchant
Leatherworking|Fur Lining - Attack Power
Inscription|Master's Inscription of the Axe
Enchanting|Enchant Ring - Assault
Blacksmithing|Socket Bracer
|Socket Gloves
Engineering|Hyperspeed Accelerators
|Nitro Boosts
|Flexweave Underlay
Tailoring|Swordguard Embroidery


Gems

Only the most commonly used gems are listed. Please consult the spreadsheet
for more accurate gemming choices.

[table=head]Type|Gem
Meta|
JC Only|
|
|
|
Prismatic|
Red|
|
|
|
Yellow|
|
|
|
* Blue|None

* Use to activate the Relentless Earthsiege Diamond metagem.


Consumables

[table=head]Type|Item
Flask|
Elixir|
|
Food|
|
|
Potion|


Raid Buffs/Debuffs

[table=head]Buff/Debuff|Talent/Ability
Major Armor Debuff|Sunder Armor, Expose Armor
Minor Armor Debuff|Faerie Fire, Curse of Recklessness
Physical Vulnerability Debuff|Savage Combat, Blood Frenzy
Melee Haste Buff|Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem
Melee Critical Strike Chance|Leader of the Pack, Rampage
Attack Power Buff|Blessing of Might, Battleshout
Attack Power Percentage Buff|Unleashed Rage, Abomination's Might, Trueshot Aura
Bleed Damage Buff|Mangle, Trauma
Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff|Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath
Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff|Improved Scorch, Winter's Chill, Improved Shadow Bolt
Spell Damage Debuff|Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of Elements
Spell Hit Debuff|Improved Faerie Fire, Misery
Haste Buff (All types)|Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
Damage Buff (All types)|Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
Critical Strike Chance Debuff (All types)|Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath, Master Poisoner
Percentage Stat Buff|Blessing of Kings
Additive Stat Buff|Mark of the Wild
Strength + Agility Buff|Strength of Earth Totem, Horn of Winter

#2 Shaker

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 01:07 AM

One quick addition, credited to Aldriana - is that the very rough value of the new RED is between 140 and 190 EP, getting better as your gear does. This value is useful for Lootrank, since it can calculate helms with/witout meta gems. It should be noted that because of this exceptionally high value, there are very few competitive helms without meta gem sockets.
Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

Kurisu's BSG Reference Sheet

#3 Slyness

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 12:20 PM

I'm not sure if it's worth noting that BS/LW are the premier professions. JC/BS/LW are all pretty close and jewelcrafting could stay in the top depending on gear/socket dynamics, as well as the possibility of new gear being introduced. There's also an additional benefit of getting prismatic gems with your optimum stat versus having to use a glinting or accurate gem and etc here and there. This may seem insignificant but really, so is the difference between the professions.


edit: Basically what I'm trying to say is we're not sure what's going to be the best in the long run, so why add it to the guide.

#4 Custardcream

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 02:03 PM

Mainhand Instant Poison, Offhand Deadly Poison.


In a situation where your off hand is faster than your main hand because of an off/main hand only weapon, I believe IP off hand would be superior. Might be worth mentioning to avoid confusion.

#5 saedo

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 03:55 PM

There was a bump to the enchant AP to bracers so the LW fur lining only gained 64 AP. No more drums and Blizz isn't going to do BoP items anymore I believe so LW is pretty much on par with everything else. Pretty much all of them have a 64 AP benefit.

BS is only better if you use epic gems in the 2 extra slots for 80 AP, blue quality gems get you that exact 64 AP benefit as well. But epic gems aren't released yet as far as I know and maybe by then they'll introduce new stuff to balance it at 80 AP per professon.

Here's the post that summarized all the profession bonuses: http://elitistjerks....p35/#post904932

And the quick copy and paste of his physical dps section:

- Herbalism = 66.7AP (average, requires consumables)
- Skinning = 25 Crit rating
- Alchemy = 64 AP (Flask of Endless Rage)
- Enchanting = 64 AP
- Jewelcrafting = 42 AP or 21 AGI or 21 STR or 21 Crit Rating or 21 Haste Rating or 21 Hit Rating or 177 ArPen
--- Jewelcrafting = 62 AP or 31 AGI or 31 STR etc. (counts avoiding using a blue gem instead of a red for meta requirements)
- Blacksmithing = 80 AP or 40 AGI or 40 STR or 40 Crit Rating or 40 Haste Rating or 40 Hit Rating or 280 ArPen
- Leatherworking = 64 AP
- Inscription = 64 AP

#6 MasterDinadan

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 06:04 PM

There was a bump to the enchant AP to bracers so the LW fur lining only gained 64 AP. No more drums and Blizz isn't going to do BoP items anymore I believe so LW is pretty much on par with everything else. Pretty much all of them have a 64 AP benefit.

BS is only better if you use epic gems in the 2 extra slots for 80 AP, blue quality gems get you that exact 64 AP benefit as well. But epic gems aren't released yet as far as I know and maybe by then they'll introduce new stuff to balance it at 80 AP per professon.

Here's the post that summarized all the profession bonuses: http://elitistjerks....p35/#post904932

And the quick copy and paste of his physical dps section:

- Herbalism = 66.7AP (average, requires consumables)
- Skinning = 25 Crit rating
- Alchemy = 64 AP (Flask of Endless Rage)
- Enchanting = 64 AP
- Jewelcrafting = 42 AP or 21 AGI or 21 STR or 21 Crit Rating or 21 Haste Rating or 21 Hit Rating or 177 ArPen
--- Jewelcrafting = 62 AP or 31 AGI or 31 STR etc. (counts avoiding using a blue gem instead of a red for meta requirements)
- Blacksmithing = 80 AP or 40 AGI or 40 STR or 40 Crit Rating or 40 Haste Rating or 40 Hit Rating or 280 ArPen
- Leatherworking = 64 AP
- Inscription = 64 AP


There's something else worth pointing out in Jewelcrafting, and that is socket bonuses.

For maximum DPS it's probably best to ignore blue sockets (except for one to satisfy the meta) and just put DPS gems in them. If you have prismatics, you don't have to give up socket bonuses that would be otherwise, which should count as an extra bonus for JC.

For example, if I was wearing t7 helm and chest, I'd socket blue in the helm to satisfy the meta and pick up the 8 agi as a bonus. I would ignore the socket bonus in the chest (6 crit) and just gem for DPS.

As a jewelcrafter, I can claim all of the benefits that you took into account above, but also claim that 6 crit bonus at no penalty by putting one of the prismatics in the blue chest socket. You already accounted for the bonus of putting a prismatic in the helmet, but when there are two or more items with blue sockets and useful socket bonuses, JC pulls just a little further ahead. Enough, at least, to make it preferable to all of the others except BS. Of course, if you have only one (or no) blue sockets with useful bonuses, then your numbers are correct (neglecting the tiny bit of gain you get out of being able to put red gem stats into yellow gem sockets or vice versa).


And of course, since we are observing that BS is not quite as good as you say until epic gems become available, it is also worth pointing out the Jewelcrafting is way better than you say until epic gems become available.

#7 Guest_Alphalucard_*

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 07:37 PM

Two good daggers of different speeds? Faster in the Mainhand.


I'm sorry for my possible ignorance, but may I ask the reason why should we equip faster dagger on MH rather than on OH? Doesn't equipping the slower one in MH enable us to achieve higher envenom damage due to higher damage range (provided both hands have roughly equal DPS) Just a slight increase in our overall DPS i know. Or is there any other more important factor(s) that i missed for equipping faster dagger in MH?

#8 MasterDinadan

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 08:00 PM

I'm sorry for my possible ignorance, but may I ask the reason why should we equip faster dagger on MH rather than on OH? Doesn't equipping the slower one in MH enable us to achieve higher envenom damage due to higher damage range (provided both hands have roughly equal DPS) Just a slight increase in our overall DPS i know. Or is there any other more important factor(s) that i missed for equipping faster dagger in MH?


Finishers do not depend on the weapon speed or damage whatsoever. Envenom's damage is based only on your AP and nothing else. So really, the only reason it matters is because finishers can PROC things from the main hand.

The advantage to wielding the slower weapon in the main hand is that your mutilates hit slightly harder.

However it is always advantageous to put instant poison on the faster weapon, and since finishers CAN proc poisons (and other effects) from your main hand, you will be able to proc IP on finishers if you put the faster weapon MH. Turns out this is more useful than getting slightly more damage out of your mutilates.

#9 Mjollnir

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 09:59 PM

I did not see movement enchants/gems listed in OP. In wrath, are stats scaled to such a level that these are obsolete, or have they merely been ignored to favor 'stand and deliver' stats comparisions?

#10 Cally

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 05:25 AM

I did not see movement enchants/gems listed in OP. In wrath, are stats scaled to such a level that these are obsolete, or have they merely been ignored to favor 'stand and deliver' stats comparisions?


Vulajin made a post about it here. This is now added to the pocket guide.

#11 Xerop

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 02:48 PM

A slight correction. A Enchanted Tear beats any other non-epic gem for a blue socket.

#12 OnTheHissay

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 11:33 AM

Not mentioning glyph values in your thread?

#13 Nerevarine

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 01:18 PM

there are just not enough pve valuable Glyphs around to start a discussion. Rupture, SnD, SS.

#14 Tryss

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 03:57 PM

Nobody ever mentions Hyperspeed Accelerators from Engineering, which gives 340 Haste rating for 8 seconds every 2 minutes. That's an average of 22 2/3 haste rating on the gloves, which I would think is comparable to 20 Hit rating, or 15 Expertise Rating, especially since you can time it up with Blade Flurry if Combat. EP Weights seem to indicate 44 AP is better, though.

Engineering also has the BoP Weakness Spectralizers, which is about equal to T7 sadly.

So while Engineering doesn't seem to have the 64 AP bonus that other professions give, there seem to be a few roughly equal alternatives. It's worth at least mentioning in the Professions section, even to say why it's not as good.

#15 Custardcream

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:51 AM

With announced changes to fan of knives to remove the cooldown and to make it dagger friendly, some sort of information in the article regarding proper/improper use of the ability may be useful. As it's also a new ability, it's something people are likely to have far less knowledge of than other topics. I guess we need to wait for the changes to be implimented though to see what impact it has on playstyle. From the blue post announcment it would appear the change is to bump Rogue AoE up to an acceptable level on trash. Whether this leads to a completely different playstyle on trash packs is yet to be seen. A combination of running slice and spamming FoK perhaps?

#16 Pittaxx

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 09:49 AM

like you have said we have to wait for the changes as they might remake the ability in general (the bit about not wanting us use it in single targets etc).

#17 AsaelWOW

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 10:56 AM

There is one thing I don't understand in your guide, your advice for mutilate: "Two good daggers of different speeds? Faster in the Mainhand."

What is the point to take the faster in the MH with the lost in dps with a slower OH and the OH penalty? I'm sry when i have overseen something but could you please explain why?

#18 Deadaim

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:45 AM

Finishers do not depend on the weapon speed or damage whatsoever. Envenom's damage is based only on your AP and nothing else. So really, the only reason it matters is because finishers can PROC things from the main hand.

The advantage to wielding the slower weapon in the main hand is that your mutilates hit slightly harder.

However it is always advantageous to put instant poison on the faster weapon, and since finishers CAN proc poisons (and other effects) from your main hand, you will be able to proc IP on finishers if you put the faster weapon MH. Turns out this is more useful than getting slightly more damage out of your mutilates.


Hi Asael, you're question has already been asked and replied to by MasterDinadan.

I have a question regarding hit cap. I've been reading that reaching poison hit cap was enough for 25 man raiding and that obtaining the white hit cap was not necessary.
Is that true? And if yes how come?

#19 Nerevarine

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:27 PM

Hi Asael, you're question has already been asked and replied to by MasterDinadan.

I have a question regarding hit cap. I've been reading that reaching poison hit cap was enough for 25 man raiding and that obtaining the white hit cap was not necessary.
Is that true? And if yes how come?


Reaching the white hit cap was never necessary. How ever as Poisons are more important in WotLK the EP Value of Hit decreased as the white Dmg part did. So once you reach 237hit (asuming Misery or impr FF) Hit is still nice to have but valued lower then Haste or Expertise :)

Small example: KT 25 last night i did about 42%white 21%yellow and 19%Poison (wound, deadly,env) dmg. Pre Patch white dmg was around 60%

#20 MissnL1nK

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:48 PM

You mentioned that as Combat the ideal poisons are MH Deadly, OH Wound. I have been trying been trying to test this lately vs Wound/Wound and I can not tell a difference in dmg. Does anyone know the dps difference from the 2?




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