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#21 Deadaim

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 01:00 PM

The main difference in dps with deadly/wound is that you can envenom I'd say making it superior to wound/wound.

#22 schnaxine

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 01:37 PM

You mentioned that as Combat the ideal poisons are MH Deadly, OH Wound. I have been trying been trying to test this lately vs Wound/Wound and I can not tell a difference in dmg.


Of course, because ingame tests do not provide the sufficient sample size to verify small DPS differences to correctly answer questions like WP/DP versus DP/WP. See Aldriana's reply to a similar question: Rogue - PVE DPS WotLK Discussion.

But let's look at Vulajin's spreadsheet output, Roguecraft LK 0.3.2.sp00n.v3b:

Settings: no changes made.
Weapons:
Dual Warglaives; 2.8 / 1.4:
DP/WP: 4416.54
WP/DP: 4416.00

Deadly Glad Slicer / QB; 2.6 / 1.5
DP/WP: 4625.18
WP/DP: 4649.16

Silent Crusader / Widow's Fury; 2.5 / 1.6
DP/WP: 4648.80
WP/DP: 4696.16

#23 Demi9OD

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 03:30 PM

I believe DP/WP is stronger on fights with time off target, and WP/DP is stronger on fights you always maintain melee range. Reasoning for this is that it is faster to stack DP through the instant attacks on the MH.

#24 Maaras

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:05 PM

Expertise Rating

From Enova's post.

25 expertise (205 expertise rating) to cap.


Pardon the silly question, but isn't the chance to be dodged 6.5%, which would mean 26 expertise is the cap?

#25 VeeV's

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:10 PM

Why do we take KS with the 15/51/5 spec again?

Im pretty sure that 16/50/5 would be a better spec for bossfights regardless if you put the point into Vile Poisons (preferred) or into Imp Eviscerate. For trash KS on 2 min CD is a nuissance and on bosses noone uses it because of the danger of landing in cleave. (and dropping SnD/DP/Rupture)

Opinions?

#26 MissnL1nK

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:22 PM

Why do we take KS with the 15/51/5 spec again?

Im pretty sure that 16/50/5 would be a better spec for bossfights regardless if you put the point into Vile Poisons (preferred) or into Imp Eviscerate. For trash KS on 2 min CD is a nuissance and on bosses noone uses it because of the danger of landing in cleave. (and dropping SnD/DP/Rupture)

Opinions?


Its a situational talent that does good damage. You just have to be smart when you use it and not an idiot. I have also noticed that when on a boss if you use when you are directly behind him you will not move at all when you use KS so the cleave shouldn't be an issue. Just make sure there aren't any other mobs around when you pop it.

#27 Tinwhisker

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:35 PM

Why do we take KS with the 15/51/5 spec again?

Im pretty sure that 16/50/5 would be a better spec for bossfights regardless if you put the point into Vile Poisons (preferred) or into Imp Eviscerate. For trash KS on 2 min CD is a nuissance and on bosses noone uses it because of the danger of landing in cleave. (and dropping SnD/DP/Rupture)

Opinions?


In a perfect world where you spend all your time on a boss who swivels like an office chair and spams cleave without having to burn down adds, yes, that would appear right. That never happens though.

In reality (did I just refer to WoW as reality?) very few boss fights will have you just sitting there in 'spank mode'. Killing spree is undeniably good burst damage and I've found it quite useful on trash and boss adds; this is undeniable. Yes, sometimes you do have to be careful about cleaves during boss encounters but it's really just an annoyance that you have to be aware of; pick your uses carefully and you'll be just fine.

As for dropping SnD/DP/Rup when you use it... no, that doesn't happen unless you choose to use KSp over refreshing SnD. It's 2.5 seconds, that's it.

Originally I was pretty 'meh' about KSp but I've really warmed up to it despite it's limitations. I still get 'invalid target' errors when I'm in phased content and it's annoying when you don't end up back near your target but neither of those are game-breaking.

#28 Demi9OD

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:10 PM

Why do we take KS with the 15/51/5 spec again?

Im pretty sure that 16/50/5 would be a better spec for bossfights regardless if you put the point into Vile Poisons (preferred) or into Imp Eviscerate. For trash KS on 2 min CD is a nuissance and on bosses noone uses it because of the danger of landing in cleave. (and dropping SnD/DP/Rupture)

Opinions?


Killing Spree on a 120 second fight is 2-3% of my damage contribution. Killing Spree can be used to avoid stuns and CCs. Killing Spree with Blade Flurry destroys fights with closely grouped adds. Killing Spree allows you to attack targets as they take flight or otherwise leave melee range. Killing Spree gets your 5 stack of deadly running way faster than just auto attacking. Just learn the fights and learn to use it.

#29 Brimm

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:17 PM

Not to mention KS is a great way to get a good threat lead to your tank in the first few seconds of a fight with ToTT. It's not perfect, it has limitations, but for 1pt it's a pretty decent talent.

#30 Ghost

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 06:38 PM

Killing Spree can be used to avoid stuns and CCs.

This. Be creative with this use of Killing Spree and you will find it is VERY useful on some boss encounters.

#31 OnTheHissay

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 06:52 PM

there are just not enough pve valuable Glyphs around to start a discussion. Rupture, SnD, SS.


Well atm the Glyph of Adrenaline Rush also reduce Kspree cd from 2min to 1min.

#32 Brotherbear

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 06:54 PM

I'm concerned about the loot rank site. I used the Combat settings loot rank you linked and noticed the following troubling fact.

has a rating of 200.

has a rating of 219.6

Given that the items are identical except that Preserved History is better in everyway, it makes me wonder about the validity of the site as a guide for new players.

#33 MissnL1nK

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 07:33 PM

I'm concerned about the loot rank site. I used the Combat settings loot rank you linked and noticed the following troubling fact.

has a rating of 200.

has a rating of 219.6

Given that the items are identical except that Preserved History is better in everyway, it makes me wonder about the validity of the site as a guide for new players.



That is the same reason I do not use that site either. Some of the calculations it makes are just way off. I try to use ShadowPanther for the most part because he usually keeps it updated pretty well and the gear listings are accurate with the exception of some of the current weapons when dealing with specs.

#34 Demi9OD

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 08:16 PM

Well atm the Glyph of Adrenaline Rush also reduce Kspree cd from 2min to 1min.


Whoah. This is definitely a bug I will make use of till they fix it.

#35 drumbum

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 09:55 PM

Pardon the silly question, but isn't the chance to be dodged 6.5%, which would mean 26 expertise is the cap?


It's been proven that the dodge cap is greater than 6.25% and less than or equal to 6.5%. However, there is no conclusive evidence where in that range the cap really is. To nail it down more precisely than this would require an extremely large sample size, which is almost certainly more trouble than it's worth.

Basically, you definitely will see some benefit from increasing your expertise from 25 to 26, but we cannot be certain whether the benefit is equal to the increase from 24 to 25. This leads some people to assert a cap of 25 expertise (because the stat might diminish in effectiveness after this point) and others to assert a cap of 26 expertise (because that's how much you need to guarantee to never be dodged).

#36 Echophantom

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 10:58 PM

Why do we take KS with the 15/51/5 spec again?

Im pretty sure that 16/50/5 would be a better spec for bossfights regardless if you put the point into Vile Poisons (preferred) or into Imp Eviscerate. For trash KS on 2 min CD is a nuissance and on bosses noone uses it because of the danger of landing in cleave. (and dropping SnD/DP/Rupture)

Opinions?


I've never had a problem with either of the things you brought up. KS puts you close, but not in range of cleaves unless your tank is moving the boss as the same time you KSpree, and the times you use it are when your energy is low anyways, so you wouldn't be SSing for 2.5 seconds. I think you are vastly overestimating how much time it takes to do KSpree - you regenerate 25 energy (31.25 with vitality), which isn't even enough for a single Sinister Strike. If you hit a Combat potency proc during it, then really all you did was add extra damage, since your auto-attacks follow the same timers they did before you used the ability.

#37 BigWhil

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:02 PM

While on the topic of killing spree, just a ta bit of info for raiders. I was doing malygos the other night and noticed a couple of things.
When you vortex you end up in either an in-range position or out of range position. to ensure i had as much up time on malygos as possible i would KS right at the start of the vortex and he would actually just drop me, as a result i was in range below him. Tiny part of the fight but, helps none the less.

One other question i don't want to clog up the forums with so PM if you please. But does anyone find rogue dps underwhelming in spite of the fact that most guilds & players rocked up to naxx10/25 with equivalent sunwell gear and some classes are just overhwelmingly so far ahead of the dps race its quite demoralizing. I mean i'm hoping as usual that rogues will scale best with gear, it's just hard to believe we can gain so much ground.

#38 Demi9OD

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:43 PM

While on the topic of killing spree, just a ta bit of info for raiders. I was doing malygos the other night and noticed a couple of things.
When you vortex you end up in either an in-range position or out of range position. to ensure i had as much up time on malygos as possible i would KS right at the start of the vortex and he would actually just drop me, as a result i was in range below him. Tiny part of the fight but, helps none the less.

One other question i don't want to clog up the forums with so PM if you please. But does anyone find rogue dps underwhelming in spite of the fact that most guilds & players rocked up to naxx10/25 with equivalent sunwell gear and some classes are just overhwelmingly so far ahead of the dps race its quite demoralizing. I mean i'm hoping as usual that rogues will scale best with gear, it's just hard to believe we can gain so much ground.


What classes are really putting it to you? I rerolled with friends to do 10 man raids a month before expansion, so we were all wearing badge gear we have mainly replaced with blues and some Naxx gear, and have no trouble topping DMs. Our DPS classes are Hunter/Arms War/Spriest/Feral, so I don't have much to base it on.

#39 Kjaska

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 12:21 AM

there are just not enough pve valuable Glyphs around to start a discussion. Rupture, SnD, SS.


While most likely not intended the Adrenaline Rush Glyph not only decreases the CD of AR by 60 sec, it also decreases the CD of KSpree by the same amount, halving it effectively. Which is why I prefer it over the SnD Glyph for example.

#40 Coldfuzion

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 02:53 AM

From my quick math for the Hyperspeed accelerators enchant for gloves I got that the 345 haste rating translates to a static 22.7 haste rating enchant which is about 31.7 attack power. Just throwing it out there for any engineers.




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