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Pawn Values for all Specs: Updated to 3.3


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#41 Aramul

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 06:36 PM

And another request, please - I am unable to find anywhere how much is 5 expertise at lvl 80 converted into rating, as I am dwarf and thus having 5 exp racial with maces makes them really favoured weapon. Could anyone tell me the ratio, please? I can do the maths myself, just need the base numbers. Thanks.

http://elitistjerks....ing_level_80_a/

#42 Jourgenson

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:48 PM

That is a good question. I value the 3% crit damage component at 93.35 dps. That is simply what my sheet showed as the dps difference when I removed it. That value will change with your dps total, but if you are using the values my spreadsheet spits out currently it should be a great place to start.

So if str = 168.09, then 3% crit meta is worth 9335 + the value of 21 crit rating.

I personally divided all the values by 100 for pawn purposes to make my results smaller, so in my personal pawn string it looks like str = 1.68 and a meta socket is 93.35 + value of 21 crit rating.

As a note this meta is so absurdly powerful that any helmet without a meta socket is pretty nearly an automatic writeoff. Unless you are upgrading 2 tiers or more of content you can't consider any hat without a meta.


Yeah when I got home yesterday I plugged the meta into your spreadsheet and with the 22 crit rating it came out at around 120 dps or so with my gear. I'm almost regretting replacing my CVoS with the . Oh well, I'm sure I'll get my tier helm soon enough.

Regarding the hit cap value, I just have 2 scales on my tooltips, one with a hit value of zero for over the hit cap.

#43 Rickety

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 02:01 AM

The Prot strings listed in the earlier posts have an error as Defense should be listed as DefenseRating.

#44 galzohar

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:56 AM

I think it would've been useful if pawn would also list the value of the "raw" item - that is without enchants, and using the sockets the way pawn would use them instead of what's actually in them. That would make it easier to compare my current items to drops or items other people are using.

#45 Left

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 06:18 PM

For prot ratings, I have found it helpful to use multiple scales which tell me different things about the gear I am examining. I personally have five different scales right now: Avoidance, Full Avoidance, Block Value, Crit Reduction, and Health. I use the scales to help me determine which gearset a piece of gear should go into (threat, avoidance, high health, etc), as well as (particularly right now while leveling) to see what I need to have in order to become crit-immune again (by comparing the "crit reduction" on the new piece to the one I am replacing).

I have the scales set up such that the number I see actually corresponds directly to a real quantity. IE, the pawn value I see on the "Full Avoidance" scale will be numerically the % dodge, miss, and parry that the piece provides me. The "Health" value is the number of hitpoints the piece should give me. Etc. I find that this system helps me distill the key quantities out of the gear that I pick up while still maintaining enough granularity for me to be able to make intelligent decisions about gearing.

For those interested, here are the scales I use and how I derived them. For rating conversions, I'm using the data posted in the prot field manual thread. Any stats not listed in any given scale can be assumed to be given zero weight.

Avoidance
This scale will yield a total % avoidance (miss+dodge+parry+block) given the amount of each stat
Note: this scale counts blocks. See the next scale for the full avoidance weights.

Agility: 52.08 agility = 1% dodge; 1 Agility = 0.0192 points
Dodge Rating: 39.35 dodge rating = 1% dodge; 1 Dodge Rating = 0.0254 points
Parry Rating: 49.18 parry rating = 1% parry; 1 Parry Rating = 0.0203 points
Block Rating: 16.29 block rating = 1% block; 1 Block Rating = 0.0614 points
Defense Rating: 25 defense (25*4.92 = 123 defense rating) = 1% each miss, dodge, parry, block; 1 Defense Rating = 0.0325 points


Full Avoidance
This scale will yield a total % full avoidance (miss+dodge+parry) given the amount of each stat

Agility: 52.08 agility = 1% dodge; 1 Agility = 0.0192 points
Dodge Rating: 39.35 dodge rating = 1% dodge; 1 Dodge Rating = 0.0254 points
Parry Rating: 49.18 parry rating = 1% parry; 1 Parry Rating = 0.0203 points
Defense Rating: 25 defense (25*4.92 = 123 defense rating) = 1% each miss, dodge, parry; 1 Defense Rating = 0.0244 points


Block Value
This scale will yield the total amount of block value present
Note: Assumes 5/5 Divine Strength and 3/3 Redoubt

Block Value: 1 block value = (1)*(1.3) block value; 1 Block Value = 1.3 points
Strength: 1 strength = (0.5)*(1.15)*(1.3) block value; 1 Strength = 0.7475 points


Crit Reduction
This scale will yield a total % reduction in the number of incoming critical strikes given the amount of each stat

Defense Rating: 25 defense (25*4.92 = 123 defense rating) = 1% crit reduction; 1 Defense Rating = 0.0081 points
Resilience Rating: 81.97 resilience rating = 1% crit reduction; 1 Resilience Rating = 0.0122 points


Health
This scale will yield the total amount of hit points that the piece will provide
Note: Assumes 2/2 Sacred Duty and 3/3 Combat Expertise

Stamina: 1 stamina = (10)*(1.06)*(1.06) = 11.236 health; 1 stamina = 11.236 points
Health: 1 health = 1 health; 1 Health = 1 points



For sockets, I make the assumption that I will put a standard gem in each socket. At the moment, while leveling, I don't care to invest in blue gems; therefore I weight the sockets in each scale as if they contained my green gems of choice: (blue socket), (yellow socket), or (red socket). I just multiply the appropriate stats on those gems by the weightings above, sum it, and use that as my socket weighting.

Unfortunately, this can cause problems. When viewing an unsocketed item, Pawn now gives you the option to either match socket colors properly or to "smart gem" the sockets such that you obtain the most points (on that particular scale) by treating sockets as the highest value color and taking into account the value of socket bonuses. The problem with this second method is that it causes conflicts between scales. Pawn will assume a full set of "red" socketed gems for the Block Value scale, as the red socket is the only socket that has any rating on that scale. Same for "yellow" socketed gems on the avoidance scales. Obviously, since both can't occur at the same time, it gives numbers for the values of each scale that are skewed upwards too much.

The way to avoid this issue is to tell pawn to always socket by socket color (to match socket bonuses). (This is a global option for each scale that has an option box which appears when you click on a socket color to set its weight.) That way, I can always assume a given socket has the gems I set above and Pawn will give me accurate weights.

EDIT: When using the scales above, make sure you set Pawn to round to 2 or 3 decimal places of precision when calculating weights. Otherwise, you end up with items rounded to a whole percent of avoidance/etc, which isn't all that useful. (Ideally, you would have a precision of 1 for the BV and Health scales, and 0.01 for the avoidance and crit reduction scales. Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to set precision per each scale, only a global option.)

#46 dr2ww62

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:02 PM

That is a good question. I value the 3% crit damage component at 93.35 dps. That is simply what my sheet showed as the dps difference when I removed it. That value will change with your dps total, but if you are using the values my spreadsheet spits out currently it should be a great place to start.

So if str = 168.09, then 3% crit meta is worth 9335 + the value of 21 crit rating.

I personally divided all the values by 100 for pawn purposes to make my results smaller, so in my personal pawn string it looks like str = 1.68 and a meta socket is 93.35 + value of 21 crit rating.

As a note this meta is so absurdly powerful that any helmet without a meta socket is pretty nearly an automatic writeoff. Unless you are upgrading 2 tiers or more of content you can't consider any hat without a meta.


I was just trying to do a comparison to see what this gem is worth as an equivalency to other stats. I chose strength, since that is our main stat. Correct me if I am wrong, but that would put the 3% crit dmg boost to a strength equivalency of about 293 strength for your current level of gear. Is that really how powerful that dmg boost is? I just used the pawn values to multiply the dps increase by the dps value then divide that by the strength value; I'm not good at math but that works right?

#47 frmorrison

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:21 PM

I was just trying to do a comparison to see what this gem is worth as an equivalency to other stats. I chose strength, since that is our main stat. Correct me if I am wrong, but that would put the 3% crit dmg boost to a strength equivalency of about 293 strength for your current level of gear. Is that really how powerful that dmg boost is? I just used the pawn values to multiply the dps increase by the dps value then divide that by the strength value; I'm not good at math but that works right?


You are confusing ranking (which is an issue with differing static values). He is saying 100 strength = 168 dps, so one 1 str = 1.68 dps. Therefore the 3% crit damage is about equal to 55 Strength.

Yes the meta is good, but not 300 strength good.


I will divide the Ret ratings by 100 to make it easier to understand.

#48 Wakeman

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 08:49 AM

From the Prot item weights in a Wowhead thread:

Protection Paladin:
( Pawn: v1: "Prot": Strength=39, DefenseRating=100, Stamina=98, DodgeRating=94, ParryRating=88, Agility=81, BlockRating=63, SpellPower=38, ExpertiseRating=20, Intellect=25, BlockValue=25, SpellHitRating=19, Armor=8)




This Prot weight you quoted has some major flaws:

- Although prot threat also benefit from spell power, it scales better with AP now. So normally you are not supposed to see spell power on any of your tanking gear, not even gems and enchant. Having spellpower in the weight only make the score misleading with some non-tanking gear with spellpower.

- Similarly, there is no Intellect on any tanking gear.

- 1 point of parry rating is more avoidance than 1 point of agility BUT with BoK (which is still the 1st / 2nd tankadin buff), 1 point of agility > 1 point of parry slightly.

- It should be Hit rating, not spell hit rating.

- 39 for strength seems too low to me. Even spellpower here is 38. But strength is a bit difficult to calculate since it is both threat and mitigation.

#49 Chicken

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 10:40 AM

- 39 for strength seems too low to me. Even spellpower here is 38. But strength is a bit difficult to calculate since it is both threat and mitigation.

It's actually fairly easy to calculate, take half your value of block value, and twice the value of spell power (Since most abilities scale at an equal rate with both spell and attack power but strength provides 2 attack power per point), add them together, and then you have a good value for strength.

As someone pointed out above, I'd recommend going for multiple possible weightings to evaluate pieces in for Protection. You can't compress tanking properly into one complete value, since the goals you can choose to pursue with your gear are typically situational.

#50 frmorrison

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 03:20 PM

This Prot weight you quoted has some major flaws:

- Similarly, there is no Intellect on any tanking gear.

- It should be Hit rating, not spell hit rating.


I found it from Wowhead, so I didn't give it much thought. I will edit the values.

As was mentioned before, there is no "best" way to do tanking, since situations call for different items that then become better.

The reason why SP and int are in the list is if a non-Prot Pally that wants to tank a non-heroic they can better pick their items.

Spell hit listing there is an error from the Wowhead poster.

#51 Sympa

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 08:28 PM

edit: Wrong thread. My mistake.

#52 Wakeman

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 08:10 AM

It's actually fairly easy to calculate, take half your value of block value, and twice the value of spell power (Since most abilities scale at an equal rate with both spell and attack power but strength provides 2 attack power per point), add them together, and then you have a good value for strength.


Sorry for misleading you. I said strength is difficult to calculate its value because it is both mitigation and threat, not because I don't know the formula. Even for the same tank, the important of strength maybe different when tanking 5-man vs tanking raid.


As someone pointed out above, I'd recommend going for multiple possible weightings to evaluate pieces in for Protection. You can't compress tanking properly into one complete value, since the goals you can choose to pursue with your gear are typically situational.


Yes, apparently this is the better way.

#53 Wakeman

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 09:20 AM

As was mentioned before, there is no "best" way to do tanking, since situations call for different items that then become better.


Yes, better have separate Pawn weights, something like what Left is using.


The reason why SP and int are in the list is if a non-Prot Pally that wants to tank a non-heroic they can better pick their items.


No. Ret pally should wear the same tanking gear when want to tank. Rarely heard of holy pally tanking, but I will still suggest wearing regular tanking gear because suvival is a much bigger issue than threat generation for a holy pally tank!

Please remove int and SP already! That wowhead poster was an idiot who probably stacked Int when tanking during TBC (or even now)!

#54 Voldin

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 04:05 PM

Ret pally should wear the same tanking gear when want to tank. Rarely heard of holy pally tanking, but I will still suggest wearing regular tanking gear because suvival is a much bigger issue than threat generation for a holy pally tank!


At some point your T9 ret/holy gear may be better for tanking than some of your random dungeon blues that you may still be carrying around in your "tanking" set. It would be worthwhile for people who may not have a complete set of tank gear to know whether something is an improvement over their current prot setup.

Just because you personally don't find those stats useful or see a need to be able to compare them, doesn't mean that they are pointless.
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#55 Guest_Alarius_*

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 09:50 PM

Would it be safe to assume that once we are ~295 hit rating we would benefit from a ret scale that has 0 hit as a weight?

#56 frmorrison

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:03 PM

Would it be safe to assume that once we are ~295 hit rating we would benefit from a ret scale that has 0 hit as a weight?


Indeed.

If you have that much hit you will never miss no matter what ghost hit you have.


What some people do is copy the Ret weighting into another string, then edit that string hit value to have HitRating = 0. You could do the same thing to expertise once you had 25.

#57 Guest_Alarius_*

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:29 PM

Indeed.

If you have that much hit you will never miss no matter what ghost hit you have.


What some people do is copy the Ret weighting into another string, then edit that string hit value to have HitRating = 0. You could do the same thing to expertise if you had 21.


Is 21 the hard-cap for EXP? Or is it 25?

#58 Nicki

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:51 PM

Is 21 the hard-cap for EXP? Or is it 25?


No 26 expertise skill is the point at which you won't get dodged, unless something has changed and I can not find it.

#59 Wakeman

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 03:39 AM

At some point your T9 ret/holy gear may be better for tanking than some of your random dungeon blues that you may still be carrying around in your "tanking" set.



lol, do you know what you are talking about? Are you that wowhead poster?

Ok, seriously, what you can do =/= what is the best. I have no doubt you can tank SM wearing cloth; similarly you don't even need to wear your precious dear all-powerful T9 ret/holy gear to tank normal instances ----- ever heard of overgeared tankadins need to take off the pants when tanking or use 2-handed weapon? Yes, at the late TBC they have good reason to do so. But now we are talking about Pawn weight used to compare regular "tanking" gear for appropriate level.

Depending on your other gear. You can tank pantlessly if overgeared, so of course you will be fine wearing one or two piece of T9 ret/holy gear. But if you are talking about wearing a whole set of T9 ret/holy gear to tank, this is simply fail. You can ask some experienced tankadins. I'm sure all of them will tell you to wear some blue or even green tanking gear instead of your dear T9 ret/holy gear set.

#60 frmorrison

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 06:10 AM

No 26 expertise skill is the point at which you won't get dodged, unless something has changed and I can not find it.


It is 25, my keyboard messed up earlier!

Nothing has changed, it has always been that at least for Pallies.




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