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#41 Playered

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 02:53 AM

Don't ignore Int - its actually a useful stat to have now especially when starting up as it boosts your mana pool significantly from the early level gear you had.
You also need to factor in Replenishment (not the talent) which also heavily boosts Int in raiding.

Get enough Spirit to fill your mana pool from 0-100% on an Innervate.
Get enough Haste to get your GCD limit with Gift of the Earthmother, which is about 10%~ with a Shaman, 15%~ without.

Throw the rest in Spell power.


After that you will end up with slightly better stats, more Spell power and then either excess Crit, Haste or MP5 as a side product of the other upgrades.

#42 Unseen

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 03:41 AM

You really don't have to gear specifically for haste unless you want to stack it for direct heals. After 1 week of 25man clears and 2weeks of 10man clears i'm currently sitting on ~340 haste without even trying to stack it. Most pieces have either crit or haste, with a few offering mp5 as an option. The good thing with current trinkets is that there are very strong spirit trinket options that you can use if/when needed.

As for stat goals, for current 25 content i feel that i already have enough regen (~1000int, 1500spi; ~550mp5 while casting and around 1500 while not casting) so i will mainly be focusing on spell power now. As mentioned i don't think haste needs stacking as such, around half of your items will have it anyway.



This is purely theoretical, as I don't have the items yet, but I'm okay with them. 5% off Rejuv isn't great, but considering how much more of a role Rejuv plays in my healing than it used to, it's not bad, and will actually have an effect in almost every fight. The bonus healing to Nourish is very situational, and once I have 4T7, I'll most likely at least carry around the pieces to toss on during an extreme tank damage fight like Patchwerk, where rolling Lifebloom and Rejuv will add another 10% to Nourish for getting them topped off.


This got me thinking, on a fight like Patchwerk, i personally found it quite efficient to roll all 3 hots on all the tanks. I didn't get much time over to use Nourish, and certainly didn't have extra mana at the end of the fight for anything (being grouped with our resto shaman would have solved this problem though, i misjudged my need for mana compared to the other healers for this fight).

Would it be more efficient to drop the regrowths and spot heal with nourish as needed while keeping rejuv and blooms up? Full hots seems like the more reliable option to me.

#43 Rhaegal

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 01:15 PM

I think it depends on 10man Patch vs 25man Patch. If there are more healers in the raid who have direct heals, then you're probably right that it's far better to roll full HoTs on all the tanks. I'll be running 2-healer 10-man Naxx, though, and remembering what Patchwerk 1.0 was like a couple years ago makes me think I'll have to at least toss a few Nourishes to the OT. I might be wrong though, we're still waiting on another couple people to hit 80 in our group.
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#44 Humbaba

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 02:07 PM

For us it's enough to run LB, Rejuv, Regrowth on the MT and first Hateful tank with a Rejuv ticking on the second Hateful tank. I usually end up casting a lot of Regrowths for the crit heals on the first Hateful tank. It will vary greatly depending on your other healers, though. We had two paladins chain casting holy lights and a resto shaman nearly chain casting chain heal, so the tanks weren't even spiking down that much.

#45 mesullivan

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 03:13 PM

Don't ignore Int - its actually a useful stat to have now especially when starting up as it boosts your mana pool significantly from the early level gear you had.
You also need to factor in Replenishment (not the talent) which also heavily boosts Int in raiding.


Yes, it looks like int is almost as valuable as spirit for mana resources on the OP's postulated 8 minute fight if you get replenishment, and actually *more* valuable if you spend zero time OO5SR and use your innervate elsewhere. It's also more valuable on shorter fights. But spirit gives spellpower also, so spirit is probably close to equivalent at worst and a bit better most of the time.

One thing that is clear is that Mp5 is quite inefficient compared to spirit or int. item cost is 2.5x, but actual value is less than 2x.

Get enough Spirit to fill your mana pool from 0-100% on an Innervate.


Not sure this is critical unless mana is constraining. If mana is constraining, this may not be enough, and even without marginal innervate value, spirit's spellpower bonus makes it scale about as well as int.

Get enough Haste to get your GCD limit with Gift of the Earthmother, which is about 10%~ with a Shaman, 15%~ without.


This I am sure doesn't matter unless there is a specific rotation you are trying to enable this way. Haste doesn't scale well for druid healers at all. You will probably end up getting that much or close on your gear without trying anyway, and I don't see this as critical at all. With GoTE and the extended lifebloom talent, we just don't have the same problems spreading small heals around that we used to. Note that spellpower increases max healing throughput more than haste per item point for all gear levels currently available, and spellpower *also* increases mana efficiency while haste does not.

I certainly don't turn down haste, but given the choice of gear with haste vs. gear with equivalent item points in spellpower, spi or int, I'm forgoing the haste, no matter how little I have. Haste, like crit, should largely be ignored except where you can get a lot of it (below the cap), while sacrificing little else.

Throw the rest in Spell power.


I say spellpower is the first priority, not the third. Sacrifice spellpower only when you can get sufficient mana regen in its place, and you would otherwise run out of mana.

#46 Kryden

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 08:11 PM

I personally haven’t had any issues with mana regeneration at all in 10/25 man raids, but I'd attribute it to my choice in glyphs really (Innervate/Lifebloom/Rejuvenation). About 80% of the time I find myself innervating the shadow priests or anyone who calls for it, and the glyph allows me to regen mana while I give it to others, The Lifebloom glyph as well allows for less casting of the spell I use most.

I'm working off old BC mana potions which I pop regularly. This too mitigates my mana usage.

My gemming/enchanting has been tuned to SP, because just about all of the resto gear found covers the haste requirement needed to hit cap (assuming you have full Naxx 10/25 and badges gear) Because if this, I've found rolling full hots, including Wild Growth, is incredibly easy between three tanks at a time without going OOM. The only fights that have challenged this are Patchwerk and Saph 3 drakes, but even in these cases the time needed to roll full hots on tanks don't exceed 5 minutes.

#47 ithecho84

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 08:41 PM

Thanks to Uliko for posting the formula, I based these simple math calculations off of it.
http://elitistjerks....17-post110.html

Haste ratings were derived from the information provided by Whitetooth at: http://elitistjerks....ngs_level_80_a/
Here is how much haste you need to reach a 1 second GCD on spells affected by different ranks of Gift of the Earthmother

Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura
0/5 GotE = ~38.7% Haste = ~1269 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~30.8% Haste = ~1010 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~23.8% Haste = ~781 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~17.5% Haste = ~574 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~11.9% Haste = ~391 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~6.7% Haste = ~220 Haste Rating


Wrath of Air only
0/5 GotE = ~42.9% Haste = ~1407 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~34.7% Haste = ~1138 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~27.5% Haste = ~902 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~21.1% Haste = ~692 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~15.2% Haste = ~499 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~9.9% Haste = ~325 Haste Rating

Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura only
0/5 GotE = ~45.63% Haste = ~1497 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~37.4% Haste = ~1227 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~30.03% Haste = ~985 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~23.42% Haste = ~768 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~17.44% Haste = ~572 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~12.02% Haste = ~395 Haste Rating

I tried not to round down but if I did it was at the ten thousandth level and in most cases I just rounded up regardless of the decimal, especially with the haste rating.

It's funny how much time I just spent on this, good thing I opted out of the staff meeting going on right now!

#48 Norfair

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:27 AM

Nice numbers, I added them in the first post if you don't mind!

#49 tertribus

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 06:33 PM

I do not understand the calculation and the formula to find the numbres in the first post.

* New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100))
Note that "base casting time" is after talents. (Wow Wiki Spell Haste)
Without talent :
1 = 1,5 / (1 / ( x / 100))
x = 50% spell haste

* GotEM 5/5 : Reduces the base global cooldown of your Rejuvenation, Lifebloom and Wild Growth spells by 20%
So with the talent GotEM, the new GCD is 1,5*0,8 = 1,2s.
To reduce bye 0,2s, we need :
1 = 1,2 / (1 + (x /100))
x = 20% spell haste

the only information found is: ithecho84's post.

If imp. moonkin/swift retribution works the same way as wrath of air we'd get: \frac{1.5}{h*1.05*1.03}=1.3 where 1.05 is wrath of air, 1.03 is moonkin/ret and h is how much haste needed to reach 1s GCD on GotEM spells since it's -0.3s after haste.

Solving for h gives: h=\frac{1.5}{1.3*1.05*1.03}=1.0668...\approx1.067 or 6.7% haste.


thanks for your reply

#50 uliko

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:56 AM

Most casting time reduction talents are before haste (like naturalist, mages imp. fire/frostbolt and starlight wrath), but for some reason GotEM is not, hence the need to only reduce the GCD to 1.3 from 1.5 instead of 1.2 to 1 with haste.
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#51 Nitz

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 01:08 AM

That would be because GotEM is not a casting time reduction talent, it only affects instant spells, and their GCD.

#52 Wargrunt

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 07:24 AM

I have only had mana problems while healing in 10 mans. Mana does not seem to be an issue in 25 mans though with a 6-7 healer team and 1 retribution paladin. I have been gemming spirit and spell power and picking up gear with the following stats: spirit, spell power and haste. Sitting at 1500+ spirit raid buffed ( without divine spirit ) i can always afford to give my innervate (glyphed) to another player. Raid buffed spell power is around 1800+.

What i would like to know, is how everyone is handling healing raid and/or tanks. On a boss like Patchwerk, my 25 man raid uses 1 off tank. Due to the short duration of the fight, i am able to put up all 3 hots on the off tank and spam nourish with mana potion and innervate on myself. Regrowth is only used when it drops. Fights like Sapphiron i have rolling life blooms on 5 people including the tanks. I do not seem to be using rejuvenation much. Taking Sapphiron and Patchwerk as examples could you guys please post how you heal?

Also is anyone using glyphed Healing Touch?

#53 ninor

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:55 AM

For Sapphiron I am usually around 60-70% Wild Growth. That might peg me quite squarely as a reroller, which is true, but I just don't see the downside to using this spell extensively. The rest is split between regrowth, lifebloom and rejuvenation pretty evenly. I have the rejuvenation idol and 3/3 replenishment, and recently I've tried using rejuvenation a lot, but have pretty lackluster results with that. It's hard to quantify the benefit of the replenishment effect on others, but healing-wise the results are pretty bland.

WWS of our latest Sapphiron kill.

I'm not sure whats up with the Retadin healing results, but that just seems wrong. Or are they really that good healing in fights where the raid takes damage?

I haven't really had any tough healing assignments on Patchwerk, so can't really comment on that. I did spam heal the understudies with regrowth for most of the Instructor fight, which I guess is comparable length. The result is in the wws posted earlier. That gave me around 3.3k HPS if I remember correctly. I used innervate on a priest, and got the glyph effect. Did not pot.

#54 Guest_Adriel_*

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 11:25 AM

What i would like to know, is how everyone is handling healing raid and/or tanks. On a boss like Patchwerk, my 25 man raid uses 1 off tank. Due to the short duration of the fight, i am able to put up all 3 hots on the off tank and spam nourish with mana potion and innervate on myself. Regrowth is only used when it drops. Fights like Sapphiron i have rolling life blooms on 5 people including the tanks. I do not seem to be using rejuvenation much. Taking Sapphiron and Patchwerk as examples could you guys please post how you heal?

Also is anyone using glyphed Healing Touch?


On a tank will pre-cast regrowth. Then get a lifebloom stack going, with Wild Growth thrown in as needed. From there you can spot heal with Regrowth. In a more intense situation, bosses, rejuvenation goes up as well, and flash heal with nourish/regrowth/swiftmend. (depending on damage)

In terms of HPS and HPS per mana, Lifebloom stack > Wild Growth > Rejuvenation > Regrowth tick. So best stacking them in that order. However Regrowth (direct heal) and Nourish both have higher HPS and HPS per mana than any HOT. (considering criticals+Living Seed procs) So my MO is only stack HOTs until health is stabilized. (decreasing but not precipitously) Then use regrowth/nourish to top health off. A typical fight has me stacking lifeblooms and WGs, while filling spikes with regrowths. It's a very mana efficient rotation for a tank.

For raid healing I'm less certain. But Wild Growth is the mainstay, and spot heal with LB or Regrowth depending on damage.

Also, glyphed healing touch seems to fill the same purpose as Nourish, so I no longer use it. Would also gather that it's probably only intended for pre-80 characters. (if they want a nourish-style spell)

#55 Unseen

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:13 PM

With the second offtank on patchwerk taking so much less damage than the others (and ot1 taking a lot more than the mt), i find rolling full hots on mt and ot1, with rejuv and bloom on ot2 to be nice. Leaves some time to regen or cast extra glyphed regrowths on ot1.

As for sapphiron (WWS), i don't feel the need to use wild growth that much, and do a lot of my healing with rejuv (42% rejuv, 35% wild growth). I was rolling hots on the tank and raid healing on the side. We run with 2 CoH priests though, so they deal with much of the aoe healing. The advantage of rejuv is that it's cheap, keeps the target topped for full duration if they don't eat blizzards, and it can be swiftmended if needed.

#56 Playered

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 01:26 PM

Keep in mind for Sapph that WG will only heal half of the periodic damage and you need something else to do the other half, for this RJ lasts the longest and manages this job perfectly.
I had similar results to Unseen in comparison to other healers but I had done 47% WG / 33% RJ (and almost exactly the same total healing done, a tad more effective).

The perk to RJ is simply its duration now - at 18 seconds and a 1 sec cast you can apply it very quick to many people and then throw WGs around spot areas.
Add in the Idol and the 2T7 and it becomes 30HPM+ with a cost of only 345 mana, not to forget Replenish which will cut that cost in half again when cast on yourself with a single proc.


I would also advise against using Nourish much on that fight (unless with 4T7 on a tank with HoTs...) as Regrowth will get so much use out of the HoT effect.

#57 Wargrunt

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 05:29 PM

So right now most druids are using regrowth (glyphed) more than nourish? Also which glyphs are you guys running?

#58 Smartiepants

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 05:39 PM

I agree with RG being used most for single target healing over Nourish.

I'm rolling with Regrowth, Rejuv, LB glyphs.

As for sapph healing, I would say WG is the best spell for the job, its easy to stack onto many people, I also will throw RG on people who get low, since there is also a solid HoT after that.

My breakdown is about 80% WG, 15% RG, 5% other.

#59 GTtheBard

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 05:45 PM

So right now most druids are using regrowth (glyphed) more than nourish? Also which glyphs are you guys running?


Mathematically, Regrowth is better HPS and better HPM then Nourish (the math is in WOTLK Preview Topic, I can dig it up if need be). The only time Nourish becomes worthwhile is when you have hots on the target and you have the 4t7 bonus (e.g. tanks). But if a random raid member gets damaged? Regrowth is the way to go. Plus, it leaves a nice hot for Swiftmend in case they get hit again.

Regrowth is just SO well supported right now. Living Seed and Nature's Grace allow you to take advantage of its huge Crit chance. I honestly can't see myself using Nourish even when I get 4t7, just because Living Seed on a tank > .5 second cast, in most situations. There's likely a Pally spamming heals on the MT anyway, I might as well provide another buff.

#60 Playered

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 06:11 PM

Nourish with HoTs on the tank and 4T7 comes out better HPM and slightly better HPS even including Living Seed last time I checked.

However for me the limitation of needing 4T7 for Nourish to come out (slightly) on top... well for me personally I will rather stick to using RG and keeping HT/Nourish off from my normal spell usage.
This also frees up the option to take every BiS piece of gear because I do not need to juggle around my gear for any set bonus - granted getting all of that will be rather hard as most of it is Cloth...




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