Jump to content


Photo

[Resto] LHW Spamming for Fun and Profit


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
85 replies to this topic

#21 jaredh

jaredh

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 01 December 2008 - 11:11 PM

Is this ~15% more HPS over glyphed LHW including TW? Seems like the max HPS combo you listed (RT->HW->HW->CH->HW->HW) would output much more than +15% HPS over glyphed LHW spam.

I'd love to be able to skip Healing Way, but the other Resto Shaman I raid with (10 man) insists we'll need it on fights like Patchwerk.


Don't waste 3 points on Healing Way. Trying to keep it stacked is usually a very bad idea as it will drain your mana.

You can get almost the same healing output with LHW+ES+Glyph and have better efficiency with IWS....and 3 talent points to put somewhere they will actually be useful more than 10% of the time (or less).

I always hated Healing Way and how the other shaman in my raid group always insisted it was required in TBC...even they agree with me now.

#22 grayrest

grayrest

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 238 posts

Posted 01 December 2008 - 11:28 PM

Nourish
2100 SP
26% crit (+5% from moonkin) (this is 16% lower than shaman due to shaman talents)
15% haste

Base = (1883+2187)/2 = 2035
Base w/ hot = 2442
2442 + .810 * 2100 = 4143 (.81 coefficient from the druid WotLK preview thread first post)
4143 * (1 + (.95 * .31)) = 5363 (1.5 * .3 = .45, so 195% crits, like shaman)
base cast time = 1.5 / 1.15 = 1.3
avg cast time = 1.3 - (.5 * .31) = 1.145
5363 / 1.145 = 4683 hps
mana cost = 3796 * .18 * .9 = 615 mana
5363/615 = 8.72 hpm

So I'm showing the average LHW (inc crit) at 6622 for 5044 hps and 15.84 hpm. I guess it'd depend on your definition of 'consideraby', but 250 hps is a decent margin. If the druid isn't stacking crit, I'd guess the margin would be wider (but I'm too lazy to theorycraft it since I didn't build a spreadsheet).

As for the totem of the third wind, it's definitely the choice for this style, as mentioned in the OP. I did a heroic with an ele shaman and was surprised at how much SP ToW provides. Managed to get up to 2318 SP with a feast food buff from another member of the party. 2400 SP LHWs (I use the old nagrand LHW totem) and a 3k earth shield on a geared tank are ridiculously overpowered for strat and violet hold. Add a mixology frost wyrm flask and an s5 totem, 2700 SP LHWs appear to be within easy reach. With 2t7 and my current crit rate, LHW would be just over 20 HPM on a glyphed target, which seems...high.

Is this ~15% more HPS over glyphed LHW including TW? Seems like the max HPS combo you listed (RT->HW->HW->CH->HW->HW) would output much more than +15% HPS over glyphed LHW spam.

I'd love to be able to skip Healing Way, but the other Resto Shaman I raid with (10 man) insists we'll need it on fights like Patchwerk.

The 15% HPS is NOT including TW. You can check my spreadsheet (which reflects my stats but...), but those HWs are at about 7k hps versus 5k hps for LHW spam. With healing way stacked, those go to 9k HPS. The problem with both those HW numbers is that they do not take overheal into account, which will cut both the direct HPS and well into the AA numbers. While I tend to not get a lot of overheal on LHW crits, I get enormous overheal on HW crits unless they're the emergency NS+Tidal Force variety.

As for needing it on patchwerk, I didn't need to go beyond LHW spam while taking care of the hateful tank in naxx 10 on our first (and very slow at 5:45) kill by myself. We've been running 3 healers (me, holy priest, Holy Shock/JotW pally for replenishement) for safety since we're learning the fights and I've taken to being the switch healer on subsequent attempts and try to keep Ancestral Fortitude+Riptide up on both tanks. It _may_ be necessary to drop into HW cycles if you're trying to solo heal the MT below 20% but I haven't had to try. No clue about Naxx 25, we don't have 25 80s yet.

#23 syeren

syeren

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 280 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 03:36 PM

I for the most part like the new healing style, and I believe we will really start to shine as healers once they have nerfed Priests and Druids. The only problem I currently find with our healing co-efficients is that we are heavily reliant (In regards to putting out a respectable HPS / HPM) on having ES on the target you are healing, otherwise LHW is quite a poor spell in comparison to all the other 1.5 second cast time spells; the same is obviously said for HW without 3/3 HW, which I believe gives us the worst 'long' cast time heal.

I'm not so sure on AA at this point in the game either, I have yet to see a raid encounter where it would be worth investing in the talent; however for PVP it's obviously an amazing talent.

I am a little confused as to what direction Blizzard are taking the class as 'specialist', or whether they have made every class a Priest in weaker form :P

#24 Pitbuller

Pitbuller

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 626 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 05:10 PM

...
Crit Rating
Crit is one of the few stats that scales geometrically (though only for Imp. WS spells and most significant for LHW spam), so the more you have, the better it gets per point.
...


This is only true if you look LWH mana cost as metric. Every point give of crit rating give same value of mp5 equilevent. All mana regen stats work like this. When you reach point where regen == burn rate you can heal infinitely long. Expect even at 100% crit you can't do that.
Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

#25 grayrest

grayrest

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 238 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:22 PM

I'd argue that if you're LHW spamming, its mana cost is the one that matters and that it differs from other regen mechanics in that it scales with haste, but I do understand your point.

#26 Potential

Potential

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:44 PM

I gave the methods discussed in this thread a try last night in heroic naxx. Regretfully, I had some logging issues that prevented a good WWS parse, but I will fix that with a follow up tonight. Here is a parse from a heroic halls of lightening I ran just prior to raid, however.

Wow Web Stats

I'm sitting at 927 INT, 22k mana raid buffed, 1980 SP and 25% crit self buffed, 150 MP5 in 5SR, and about 15% haste.

Anecdotaly, I felt like this method was much more solid for reliable tank healing. I also felt my reaction time to party/raid healing was much faster. I didn't quite beat out our resto druid, but I was markedly closer. Additionally, I felt like my mana use was much more in control on patchwerk (healing our bear MT). It was much more reliable than spamming CH and hoping I don't run out of mana before dps can bring him down.

#27 sovelis41

sovelis41

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,898 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 09:12 PM

I'll have to make sure to get a good log sampling for this weeks raids and review the results to compare. I'm generally LHW spamming randomly damage targets and tanks in a raid, keeping up Earth Shield, and Chain Healing where appropriate (we run melee heavy so that helps me out on the meters a bit). If I'm casting Healing Wave, it's only when Tidal Waves is up and most of the time it's a Riptide->HW->HW combo for semi-emergency healing. Timing Riptide, Chain Heal, and Tidal Wave setups is a dynamic that I'm finding incredibly fun.
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

#28 bewmheels

bewmheels

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 11:53 PM

I'd suggest using Razuvious as a benchmark for HPS and so on. With such high HP pools that the MC'd tanks have your going to get very little over heal. Obviously for real world situations this is pretty useless but its still valuable.
Also are you guys throwing in chain heals at all or just using riptide to proc tidal waves?

Ill give this a crack tonight on Patchwerk and Razuvious and see if i can link some wws for the fights.

#29 Nite_Moogle

Nite_Moogle

    I prefer the term treasure hunting

  • Allied Members
  • 11,288 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:12 AM

I'd love to be able to skip Healing Way, but the other Resto Shaman I raid with (10 man) insists we'll need it on fights like Patchwerk.


Not even close. I spammed LHW non-stop and snuck in a heal on a careless DPS and the main tank was never in danger.

Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.


#30 Philondra

Philondra

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 946 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 01:54 AM

Not even close. I spammed LHW non-stop and snuck in a heal on a careless DPS and the main tank was never in danger.



I'll second this anecdotal evidence. We ran with a two healer setup for 10-man patchwerk (myself and a resto druid), and not only was neither tank in danger, I ended with 60% mana using glyphed LHW and the resto druid ended with 80% mana. Unless 25 man Patchwerk presents a greater challenge, I don't see any reason to spec Healing Way given the current content.

#31 grayrest

grayrest

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 238 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:31 AM

Also are you guys throwing in chain heals at all or just using riptide to proc tidal waves?

I use chain heal only when it'll jump 3 times. Otherwise, LHW/RT spam.

Posted Image

Is a Sartharion kill and a fairly typical breakdown for me.

#32 Philondra

Philondra

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 946 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:24 AM

Int is the best all around stat for any shaman healer. You want to gem for int more or less regardless of your playstyle as long as you have any concerns about mana. 100 Int grants (assuming BoK):

  • 1815 increase in your mana pool
  • 20.4 mp5 from replenishment with a 90% uptime
  • 7.25 mp5 from Mana Tide on cooldown (435 mana per tide)
  • 36.3 SP to heals
  • .726% crit


It might be worth noting that if you use Glyph of Mana Tide, 100 int will actually provide 508 mana per tide, or ~8.47 mp5.

#33 Kaytikat

Kaytikat

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 82 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 11:50 AM

I use chain heal only when it'll jump 3 times. Otherwise, LHW/RT spam.

Is a Sartharion kill and a fairly typical breakdown for me.


I'm interested to know what sort of raid compositions you are running.

Do you have any issues with the other classes moaning about you "stealing" their role as MT healer? And who is doing the raid healing if you have shaman on the tanks?

Don't forget that when (if?) we see CoH and Wild Growth on 6 second cooldowns that shaman will be required as raid healers on heavy damage fights like Malygos 25.

#34 Jogre

Jogre

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 01:52 PM

Please forgive if these are obvious answers, I rerolled tank -> healer for WotLK and am still learning the class/role.

1. For spamming LHW single target on Patchwerk, are you also using Riptide in the rotation for hasted LHW?

2. For maximum tank healing using Riptide -> HW -> HW -> CH -> HW -> HW. The transition from HW -> Riptide to start the next rotation is what I'm curious about, if the tank were still in dire straights would it be worth using a GCD on Riptide to start the next rotation or toss some glyphed LHWs for more immediate healing?

3. Is there a recommended crit minimum for this build?

#35 sovelis41

sovelis41

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,898 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 02:47 PM

Are you talking about the 10 man or 25 man Patchwerk? (because it is a huge difference)

10 Man: You can cast/cancel healing waves and/or use a lot of chain heal to heal both tanks. LHW obviously works just as well here, but you can do just about whatever floats your boat.
25 Man: If you are healing the first HS tank, I'd say mixing in riptide will be somewhat difficult until your tanks have a good bit of gear, but if you see an opening for one it's certainly worth it for the TW procs. Your experiences may differ here based on your raid group.

@ Razuvious
My log file was somehow corrupted which was upsetting because it is indeed an extremely chain heal friendly fight. I was basically just casting chains through the current tanking MC'd add and was getting 4 jumps consistently with 12-14k effective totals.

Edit: Other than Raz, my healing distribution looks like the recount above, but with more chain heals and a little less Riptide.
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

#36 Vuldunobetra

Vuldunobetra

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 151 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 03:14 PM

1. For spamming LHW single target on Patchwerk, are you also using Riptide in the rotation for hasted LHW?


There is a bug/design issue with Tidal Waves not reducing the GCD. So while it does make LHW cast and land faster, you cannot start the next spell until after the GCD. Due to the longer cast time, HW doesn't have this issue (unless you stack lots of haste?). I don't see much benefit in having a RT/LHW rotation without HW.

2. For maximum tank healing using Riptide -> HW -> HW -> CH -> HW -> HW. The transition from HW -> Riptide to start the next rotation is what I'm curious about, if the tank were still in dire straights would it be worth using a GCD on Riptide to start the next rotation or toss some glyphed LHWs for more immediate healing?


I think this is one of those situations where "it depends". RT heals instantly plus the HoT. LHW heals bigger than the initial RT, but takes 1.5s to land. Is the player going to die in the next 1.5s? Is Riptide big enough to keep the player up enough until they can be healed again?

#37 jaredh

jaredh

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 04:11 PM

I'm interested to know what sort of raid compositions you are running.

Do you have any issues with the other classes moaning about you "stealing" their role as MT healer? And who is doing the raid healing if you have shaman on the tanks?

Don't forget that when (if?) we see CoH and Wild Growth on 6 second cooldowns that shaman will be required as raid healers on heavy damage fights like Malygos 25.


The paladins in my group are thrilled to raid heal. They put their beacon on the MT and help me that way while spamming FoL as raid. And they do it well.

Priests as far as I can tell are not viable for tank healing (they barely were in TBC), and druids should be raid healers these days.

As for the nerf to CoH/WG....druids and priests will still be the main raid healers I suspect, with one shaman chain healing. You won't need to stack shamans like the hyper paranoid masses believe on the main WoW forums. One CH shaman will do. And really, one LHW shaman is all you can probably do as well...remember the viability of the LHW spam only works for one shaman per tank, and you probably will have extra paladins to do the other tanks.

#38 grayrest

grayrest

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 238 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:26 PM

I'm interested to know what sort of raid compositions you are running.

Do you have any issues with the other classes moaning about you "stealing" their role as MT healer? And who is doing the raid healing if you have shaman on the tanks?

I normally heal with a Holy Priest or a Pally. When you're 2 healing, it's more "you watch X tank" than it is healing assignments. I normally take care of the MT when I'm with the preist and leave it to the pally otherwise. I actually think holy priests make better raid healers than Shaman with their CoH+SoL flash combo.

As far as the rest of the raid, 2 pally tanks (they hit 80 first so they're best geared), 1-2 warriors, and the rest usually casters. Composition is more determined by who's 80 and reasonably heroic geared than it is by being optimal.

3. Is there a recommended crit minimum for this build?

It depends on your other sources of mp5. I had to pot on a fairly regular basis (1 every other heroic run or so) up to about 23-24% crit on the character sheet. I was running with a moonkin the entire time and without replenishment so that might color my impression (healing is annoyingly imprecise for thresholds). I've never had a problem if I get replenishment.


Due to the longer cast time, HW doesn't have this issue (unless you stack lots of haste?). I don't see much benefit in having a RT/LHW rotation without HW.

As you stack haste, the GCD reduces along with the cast time. HW won't have an issue unless you have enough haste to get TW HW below the 1.0 second GCD cap.

I actually use RT quite a bit. When the tank is on an avoidance streak, I'll RT when he gets hit. This is fairly safe because an ES goes off at the same time and I have a fast LHW following. If the boss hits particularly hard and the tank is on an avoidance streak, I'll RT just for the buff+hot and be ready for the hit. I use it just before I refresh my water shield since it gives me a fast LHW to catch up from the missed GCD. Finally, it heals for more than a non-crit LHW does, so I use it on slightly more damaged raid members when I'm raid healing and let the hot+AA take care of them. For pure throughput it's not that useful and I normally won't hit it just for the haste when I'm tank healing.

#39 Sprout

Sprout

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 191 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:39 PM

I use chain heal only when it'll jump 3 times. Otherwise, LHW/RT spam.

Posted Image

Is a Sartharion kill and a fairly typical breakdown for me.


Qualifying note: I tend more towards a balanced int/mp5/crit build than you do, so my numnber looks very different. Ill try to get some tonight to post.

Some things I noticed in your numbers:

You avg 4449 per LHW, and 1250 per AA proc. Thats actually quite good from an AA overheal standpoint (about 7%). What do your LHW overheal % numbers looking? (obviously that is fight dependant but what kind of average do you get?

You use RT ALOT. More than LHW. That seems like a huge mana drain. Why do you do this? Sarth is not eactly a huge movement fight. The only fight I find myself using RT so much is Gluth when I am the kite healer and end up runnign around alot myself. Using RT so much would seem to hurt your HPS significantly.

I would love to see a balanced mp5 build doing the same job on that fight to see different numbers. Especially for HPS.



Mostly I think that the content is so easy that any reasonable build can do the job, and that unless Uldar is a huge bump in difficulty that no one NEEDS to min/max any more.

#40 grayrest

grayrest

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 238 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:57 PM

You avg 4449 per LHW, and 1250 per AA proc. Thats actually quite good from an AA overheal standpoint (about 7%). What do your LHW overheal % numbers looking? (obviously that is fight dependant but what kind of average do you get?

You use RT ALOT. More than LHW. That seems like a huge mana drain. Why do you do this? Sarth is not eactly a huge movement fight. The only fight I find myself using RT so much is Gluth when I am the kite healer and end up runnign around alot myself. Using RT so much would seem to hurt your HPS significantly.

Mostly I think that the content is so easy that any reasonable build can do the job, and that unless Uldar is a huge bump in difficulty that no one NEEDS to min/max any more.

I'm usually in the 12-18% range on LHW overheal. I heal entirely reactively (except for maxxena and faerlina's enrages) and normally focus frame the other healer so I don't snipe his heals and he doesn't snipe mine.

The number next to RT is not the number of times I cast it, it's the casts+ticks. I laid out the times where I use RT just above. It's actually pretty cheap since I've got a nice chance to crit on it.

I'd agree on the content comment. This thread is more about being a counterpoint to the TTT's CH lean. I actually do have a full haste/mp5 set that I wear when I know that CH is better for the fight.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users