Jump to content


Photo

[Resto] LHW Spamming for Fun and Profit


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
85 replies to this topic

#41 bewmheels

bewmheels

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 03 December 2008 - 10:57 PM

Wow Web Stats

This is just a comparative parse to the ones above using pretty much only chain heal and HW. I had 497 haste + egg of immortal essence. Unfortunately razuvious was a horrible mess with the mc's not going very well from the start so didnt have a chance to get into a steady rhythm and get a trouble free parse.

I ran out of mana with about 10 seconds to go is also worth noting. Will try to keep the same haste numbers for next week or if i do it 10 man this week.

#42 Jakiri

Jakiri

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 22 posts

Posted 04 December 2008 - 12:20 AM

I'm currently running around with this build. Done Malygos 10 tonight with me on MT healing and a priest on OT healing.

This is a recount for the fight, no WWS unfortunately. I'll have WWS for the Sarth we're doing right now, hopefully. My crit is hovering around tooltip which is strange.

So far my feelings are that it's worth further investigation, but it has severe limitations. I haven't been attempting to gear for haste particularly, and my gear has generally been replacing haste with crit and mana/5, and I've been hitting 1s GCD with just heroism and no WoA or whatnot.

I find the spec is kind of a mishmash in some ways. LHW loses a lot of HP/s because you're spending 1 GCD every 9-10 refreshing watershield and I'm not sure that it's really worth the bother once people start getting better gear.

[edit]

Looking at it now that recount is all kind of strange. I'll see what happens in Malygos 25.

#43 sovelis41

sovelis41

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,898 posts

Posted 04 December 2008 - 04:35 PM

I find the spec is kind of a mishmash in some ways. LHW loses a lot of HP/s because you're spending 1 GCD every 9-10 refreshing watershield and I'm not sure that it's really worth the bother once people start getting better gear.

Now that my gear is majority tier 7 with 4 piece, I'm noticing myself going back to Healing Wave more since I don't really worry about going OOM on anything (not to mention all the haste that's on T7.10/25). It's just easier to guarantee the tank is topped off with a riptide-hw-hw setup (very useful when landing after Vortex and prepping for a breath/melee hit combo).

That being said I still use LHW as my primary raid sniping heal, and I don't see that changing just because it's fast, is often free* and is enough to heal RSTS damage.

*Glyph, Meta Proc, and/or Trinket Proc
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

#44 duttmaster

duttmaster

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:48 PM

Extracts from the 3.0.8 PTR patch notes state:

Shaman

* Healing Way: Now only one application is required to reach full benefit. No longer stacks.
* Improved Water Shield: Lesser Healing Wave now has a reduced chance to trigger this talent.


This brings some change to the dependency on IWS + LHW combo. Obviously the mana feedback will be less compared to the games current state. I haven't been able to get any numbers yet.

The buff to healing way gives an indication that blizzard is promoting the use of HW which puts some drawbacks on the LHW spamming.

#45 cyric74

cyric74

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:20 AM

It is disheartening to finally have a second viable style of healing (that wasn't abusive or broken in any way, shape or form), only to see them specifically target it for a nerf.

Would be interested to know what the numbers are on the nerf, and if it ends up killing this playstyle. Seems like a bizarre change considering the whole point of the glyph system was to "promote different styles of play by altering spells and abilities."

They did exactly that very successfully with resto shamans and LHW... why make this change now?

#46 hvidgaard

hvidgaard

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 12 December 2008 - 12:15 PM

I don't understand this change eighter. It seems they wants us to use HW more, and LHW less, but as already stated numerous times, HW is just a too big heal to be truely viable.

  • you can't spam it due to mana issues
  • you will have to time the land with the tank being roughly 10k hp below max hp and that is effectivly lowering his/hers EH because you aren't keep him/her topped off. Otherwise you will overheal alot and thus waste too much mana.
  • it's very slow for a semi reactive heal in a heavy dmg income raid enviroment.

But let us wait and see by how much the chance is lowered shall we :)

#47 Mingdu

Mingdu

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 12 December 2008 - 04:39 PM

Hopefully what we lose in mana back is made up by saving the global cooldown to reapply the shield. If that's what they've done then it's just one less GCD where we can't get off a heal and that will make the strategy better.

#48 Burog

Burog

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 12 December 2008 - 05:26 PM

Hopefully what we lose in mana back is made up by saving the global cooldown to reapply the shield. If that's what they've done then it's just one less GCD where we can't get off a heal and that will make the strategy better.


If you needed the GCD before you would just not reapply water shield. But before, you'd have the extra mana. I don't see how this could make the strategy better.

#49 Shaijin

Shaijin

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 12 December 2008 - 06:46 PM

This change isn't going to kill this healing style, it will simply make it cost more mana. Nothing other than the big mana return from IWS is taking a hit.

The reason I see for this change is that Blizzard would like mana to be a resource that needs to be managed throughout a boss fight. Currently, so much mana is returned from IWS that management is barely necessary for T7 geared shaman. It would only get easier spam LHW indefinitely as gear scales up with higher tiers.

I have no numbers on how much the mana return chance is being nerfed. So, I could be wrong if it gets hit too hard. My assumption is that they will reduce the chance to consume an orb with LWH to be a 60% chance on crit. This would make IWS benefit HW and LHW equally. LHW costs 60% of the mana of HW so allowing the two spells the same consumption rate per crit causes IWS to benefit LHW 66% more than HW.

If I am correct and they adjust IWS to proc on 60% of LHW crits, it will be a minor nerf for this healing style. I don't believe it would be entirely out of line, though.

#50 grayrest

grayrest

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 238 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:51 AM

This change isn't going to kill this healing style, it will simply make it cost more mana. Nothing other than the big mana return from IWS is taking a hit.

If I am correct and they adjust IWS to proc on 60% of LHW crits, it will be a minor nerf for this healing style. I don't believe it would be entirely out of line, though.

Updated the spreadsheet but haven't done the initial post yet. This nerf simply moves the efficiency from more than 4 target chain heal (at high crit rates) to closer than 2 targets. Alternatively, it moves it from an 85% illumination 60% down to an effective 47% or 51% with 2t7. Cost and HPM are similar to Riptide if you let all the ticks run.

I would have preferred a 70%, which would put it at 55% without 2t7 and 59.8% with, which would put it more or less dead even with illumination. I guess we're paying for those 195% crits.


a question ive been dumping aorund in my head lately that id love answered is this:

I hope I did not butcher this too badly but please you pro's out there, answer this one.

Don't read too much into the tooltips. Blizz is notoriously inconsistent (and occasionally incorrect) with their tooltips. A crit is a crit. I'm pretty sure you can double trigger the egg and embrace of the spider (for example) off the same crit, but procs off water shield procs would be unprecedented to my knowledge and I've played an arc mage since the launch of BC, so I've been watching procs for a while.

#51 Ranyon

Ranyon

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 07:42 AM

bliz found that @@..

on 3.08 ptr note

Improved Water Shield has been changed to - You have a 33/66/100% chance to instantly consume a Water Shield Orb when you gain a critical effect from your Healing Wave or Riptide spells, and a 19.8/39.6/60% chance when you gain a critical effect from your Lesser Healing Wave spell.


Posted Image

#52 Sixthy

Sixthy

    Greatest Shaman in the World

  • Members
  • 190 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:12 AM

Posted Image

This was my breakdown from last week's 3 drake Sarth kill (10 man).

I use the LHW glyph obviously but don't go too heavy into the popular crit building. I'm still gearing myself around haste/mp5 and focusing on int. I have a few pieces that I swap in that are haste/crit/sp (crit over mp5) but don't have anything that's crit/mp5 without haste (except my bracers that I just haven't replaced yet).

I run around 23k mana unbuffed (1255 unbuffed int) - around 27k raid buffed I suppose.

I'm still not and never will be a MT healer. I obviously assist with MT healing in a situation like 3 drake sarth (10) where healing is critical on all tanks, and it's not a prime CH encounter. I personally feel using a shaman as solely an MT healer is a complete waste of resources. 25 man 3 drake my breakdown looks completely different as LHW is used to spot heal and CH becomes the primary cast.

With CoH and WG being nerfed CH with high haste and mp5 / replenishment will be king for raid healing.

Leave true MT healing to the pallies / priests while the druids roll their hot stacks.

(Holy Priest / Holy Pally / Resto Shaman used on the 3 drake sarth 10 kill. Actually used the priest to primarily DPS and spot heal. End breakdown was priest with 400k, pally with 900k and me at 1.16 million I believe).

Vis Maior • Home if you want to see a full breakdown of the raid comp.

Self buffed I generally run:

2315 SP
388 / 407 in combat mp5 (depends on which boots I wear)
1255 INT
22,941 Mana
539 / 544 Haste
22.52 / 21.45 Crit

I only see myself replacing ring/cloak/belt/bracers to optimize for Ulduar, but base stats won't change too much. A little more haste, a tad more crit, slightly lower mp5 and a little more SP + will swap over to BS for 32 more int over 37 SP from Inscrip shoulders.

Then there's fights like PW. I see everyone talking about LHW spam and keeping up the MT with HW/RT rotations. Yeah, they're fun tools to use but what's optimal and what's fun because it's new are just two different things in my opinion. Leave the true MT healing to pallies and do the job of keeping multiple targets up. Use LHW as a buffer, ES to boost those LHW buffers and let haste carry your CH (just imo).

This is our PW this week. Only 5600 hps, I have last week's WWS that's around 5900 HPS but it won't load atm.

WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

There's the breakdown (plus shows every source and exact amounts of mana replenishment - pretty cool site). The rest of the parses are sketchy - but PW was pretty lag free. We battled with 5-10 second cast lag most of the night along with along problems (sigh, HAT rogues creating 29,000 CP's on the server).



End result: I just don't think we're MT healers! :)

I realize we can get the job done, especially in 5's / 10's, but I've seen too many shaman lately talking about MT healing in 25's - go back to the basics! CH the raid - spot with LHW - use RT in whatever fun manner you want.

#53 panny

panny

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,105 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:27 PM

You realise you actually have to support your argument with reasons why you think Shamans can't MT heal for your post to have any merit, right?

#54 Sixthy

Sixthy

    Greatest Shaman in the World

  • Members
  • 190 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 07:19 PM

If I was trying to say Shamans can't MT heal, then I would have given thorough reason as to why they can't. I said it's a waste of resources to use Shaman as a primary MT healing force when our tools are made for multiple targets - and of course this is speaking solely for 25's. I gave a breakdown of the hardest 10 man fight in the game to show that I do indeed know how and am more than capable of switching into MT mode when it's necessary.

My post is in regards to Shaman taking the 5/10 man mindset into 25s, when in the end it's just far less efficient than the traditional raid healing role (which we're still the best at).

#55 hvidgaard

hvidgaard

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:25 PM

If I was trying to say Shamans can't MT heal, then I would have given thorough reason as to why they can't. I said it's a waste of resources to use Shaman as a primary MT healing force when our tools are made for multiple targets - and of course this is speaking solely for 25's. I gave a breakdown of the hardest 10 man fight in the game to show that I do indeed know how and am more than capable of switching into MT mode when it's necessary.

My post is in regards to Shaman taking the 5/10 man mindset into 25s, when in the end it's just far less efficient than the traditional raid healing role (which we're still the best at).

Since when have 25% more armor been a waste of resources and far less efficient? Even only with a 50% uptime it's still a incredible buff to give your tank on a melee boss. Shamans might not be the best MT healers, but they sure can get the job done, and with correct gearing do it quite well. I don't care if Paladins are the most efficient MT healers, I don't matter if they have 10, 40 or 100% mana when the fight is over. What matter is that the MT healer(s) don't go OOM untill the boss tips over.

Shamans have a huge burst potential with RT HW HW CH HW HW and the is very helpful during soft enrages and the like. But anyway, even with min/max, it's not about doing the role your class is best at, but the role you like - given you do it without people dieing left, center and right.

#56 Sixthy

Sixthy

    Greatest Shaman in the World

  • Members
  • 190 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:47 PM

Since when have 25% more armor been a waste of resources and far less efficient? Even only with a 50% uptime it's still a incredible buff to give your tank on a melee boss. Shamans might not be the best MT healers, but they sure can get the job done, and with correct gearing do it quite well. I don't care if Paladins are the most efficient MT healers, I don't matter if they have 10, 40 or 100% mana when the fight is over. What matter is that the MT healer(s) don't go OOM untill the boss tips over.

Shamans have a huge burst potential with RT HW HW CH HW HW and the is very helpful during soft enrages and the like. But anyway, even with min/max, it's not about doing the role your class is best at, but the role you like - given you do it without people dieing left, center and right.


You're essentially saying it's O.K. to be mediocre. I tend to disagree. I'm simply stating the mechanics of a healing style. Ancestral Healing isn't hard to keep up on a tank. That's where I leave my ES anyways for better spot heals with LHW. If I want an armor buff on the tank, I'll get it there while maintaining raid healing via CH. Once again, in a 25 man setting, if you're MT healing you're ignoring the primary mechanic that sets us apart from other healers in the first place.

#57 Kortar

Kortar

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 236 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:32 PM

If I was trying to say Shamans can't MT heal, then I would have given thorough reason as to why they can't. I said it's a waste of resources to use Shaman as a primary MT healing force when our tools are made for multiple targets - and of course this is speaking solely for 25's. I gave a breakdown of the hardest 10 man fight in the game to show that I do indeed know how and am more than capable of switching into MT mode when it's necessary.


The difficulty with this standpoint is that you have to start considering what other tools are out there. Except for range, Chain Heal doesn't really stack up well against even 6s cooldown CoH/WG for efficiency and provides comparable throughput with the very generous assumption that you can avoid sniping on the initial 2.5s cast. For spot healing, the FoL/BoL Paladin or SoL/FH Priest beats out the use of LHW.

Keep in mind that "Resto Shaman as the universal raid healer" is a BC-era peculiarity. The entirety of a Resto Shaman's multi-target healing arsenal is Chain Heal and AA.

#58 bewmheels

bewmheels

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:50 PM

The difficulty with this standpoint is that you have to start considering what other tools are out there. Except for range, Chain Heal doesn't really stack up well against even 6s cooldown CoH/WG for efficiency and provides comparable throughput with the very generous assumption that you can avoid sniping on the initial 2.5s cast.


I'd like to see some evidence that shows chain heal doesnt match the efficiency of a 6s CoH/WG.

As i organise assignments for raids i need to know where best to use the classes i have and it sounds like you have some very interesting information i'd like to see.

#59 Kortar

Kortar

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 236 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 10:30 PM

I'd like to see some evidence that shows chain heal doesnt match the efficiency of a 6s CoH/WG.


Real quick napkin math:

Chain Heal: (1130 + 1.3429 * 2500) * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.875 * (1 + (0.2 + 0.14) * 0.5) / (835 * 0.95) = 16.38 hpm
Circle of Healing + possible SoL proc (0/5 MA): ((720 + 0.4029 * 2500) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 6 * (1 + (0.2 + 0.05) * 0.5) + ((1 - (0.2 + 0.05)) ^ 6) * (2040 + 1.0057) * 1.1) / 811 = 23.57 hpm
Wild Growth = (1442 + 1.132 * 2500) * 1.1 * 1.05 / 873 = 28.27 hpm

It obviously doesn't matter how efficient the heals are if you're not running out of mana, but the real drawback to Chain Heal is that over half of the healing is tied up in that initial 2.5s cast. With all the fast-casting heals being thrown around, it's almost certain to be sniped on a regular basis. Inarguably, some of the efficiency of Wild Growth will also fall prey to the same sniping issue.

#60 Sixthy

Sixthy

    Greatest Shaman in the World

  • Members
  • 190 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 10:43 PM

Math means nothing when applied. Raid comps and healing assignments will be different depending on the guild and situation. If raid damage is high enough, there is no threat of being sniped. 1.9 second CH 3x per WG / CoH - And if Shamans suddenly take over MT healing, are you really putting pallies and priests solely on the raid? When I say spot with LHW, I mean spot heal the tank - top him off between the next breath, hateful, etc. Hell, bounce CH off the tank to top him while topping off DPS at the same time.

Everyone sits here writing out advanced math breakdowns on what's going to be efficient and what's not and what's going to work in x situation when they've only seen y.

Do the fights and heal the way your raid needs healing. If you're in a situation where your guild doesn't have a steady paladin, sure, you can take over MT healing. If you're in a balanced raid assuming 8 healers with 2/2/2/2 (pally, priest, druid, shaman) or 7 healers in which case I'd say 2/2/2/1 (shaman being 1) then the best role you could fill is raid healing with spots on the tank.

Basing healing on math and rotations is unbelievable. It's the most reactionary role in this game so play it that way.

Hell our last PW was 4 healered, and I casted an amazing 5 LHW's and maintained 5600 hps. The week before was 5900 with roughly the same breakdown. We'll probably go down to 3 healers this week to see what kind of raid dps we can push (25 man) and if I'm in, I still won't be casting LHW - My mana will sustain a 2 minute fight while casting CH at 1.9 seconds with 27k for replenishment - meaning more HPS and a successful kill. Could I pull it off with LHW? Obviously. Is is the most efficient - depends.

React to what's going on. Don't rely on 'napkin math' to figure out what's going to work best for you, and don't fall into a RT - HW - HW - CH - HW - HW habit. Treating healing like a DPS rotation is ridiculous.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users