Jump to content


Photo

In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3228 replies to this topic

#1 Morsexy

Morsexy

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 432 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 11:21 AM

I realize we should probably just start a thread for discussing the topics that the simple question thread morphed into.

It seems more appropriate to place it here versus in the fury spreadsheet thread.

#2 LodeRunner

LodeRunner

    Just an excitable boy

  • Guild Members
  • 4,793 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 04:51 PM

OK then. Let this be the Fury DPS thread for non spreadsheet-related questions. If people have questions about Arms DPS, go ahead and start an Arms DPS thread because they're quite different. I'd also like to take this chance to remind everyone that the http://elitistjerks....ing_think_tank/ wants your help. If we had a good Warrior: Fury article it would cut down on a lot of the wasteful posting around here.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#3 Azzog

Azzog

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 2 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:14 PM

ok feel free to show me the error of my ways but this is what i see happening the the fury arena.

1. titan grip: so dual wielding 2h weapons. thats going to be a big boost in DPS. obviously you are going to need more hit to compensate for the 5% hit decrease on abilities that require a weapon. which is actually a small percentage of the abilities you use in a fury rotation.

2. weapons: fast 2h weapons. what i would think, correct me if im wrong, your going to want a extremely slow MH weapon for the really hard bloodthirsts and heroic strikes. and a much faster OH weapon for the decent rage generation. so im thinking as close to 4.0 as you can get MH and an OH 3.0 or less.

3. spec: ive been playing around with a raid spec and i wonder if we as fury warriors need to take furious attacks. with so many reduced healing debuffs from so many classes i would think you wouldnt need to. your hunters, arms warriors, and rogues can take care of the debuff allowing you to take the reduced cooldown on recklessness/deathwish/berzerker rage. this is the spec i have been playing around with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

4. attack rotation: assuming your just worried about nothing more than hitting the boss, charge in, battleshout, rampage, bloodthirst, WW, heroic strike spam. keeping cooldowns up and hitting deathwish/recklessness/trinkets when needed. and repeating.

anyway thats where i see fury going. i dont have numbers to back it up. would love input.

#4 Lambach

Lambach

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 258 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:21 PM

1. All your abilities work off using a weapon and need the 5% extra hit to be capped.

2. WW is your most dmging attack and a fast OH cripples it.

3. How did you miss armored to the teeth in your spec? And Imp WW. Your spec is pretty awful.

4. And this one was the kicker....I guess you really havnt kept up to date on fury mechanics at all? You probably arent battleshouting....there is no rampage to cast...

#5 damagedgoods

damagedgoods

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:22 PM

Dual-wielding white hit cap without Precision: 919 hit rating to remove the 28% miss rate.

Dual-wielding white hit cap with 3/3 Precision: 820 hit rating to remove the 25% miss rate.

Titan's Grip yellow hit cap without Precision: 460 hit rating to remove the 14% miss rate.

Titan's Grip yellow hit cap with Precision: 361 hit rating to remove the 11% miss rate.


This was from the simple questions/simple answers thread. Was posted by Steveharris.

#6 Sabrewarrior

Sabrewarrior

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:26 PM

Considering you would go slow/slow for WW dmg, I think the following raid build will be quite effective Fury raid spec. Rampage is not necessary if you have a druid in raid. With expertise cap weapon mastery would become useless aswell although you could argue those 2 points might provide more damage from different stats on gear. Another thing I dont know is how much damage is imp execute.

I was doing some calculations at level 70 over the difference between bloodsurge and dw spec and noticed they were providing similiar damage with dw spec actually doing a bit more even at 4/5 dw, and this was with just offhand swings not taking WW into account. then i figured well why not have both. I would probly need to look at a few lvl 80 fury warrior wws reports to calculate and see how it stands now.

Also wondering how effective heroic fury would be to have, as I can remember countless times in BC where I was sitting there in an ice trap (BT) or roots (SSC) while not being able to do anything. It might also help survivability enough for it to be worth the 1 point.
meuw le meuw, mush ri mush, grum so grum

#7 damagedgoods

damagedgoods

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:16 PM

Considering you would go slow/slow for WW dmg, I think the following raid build will be quite effective Fury raid spec. Rampage is not necessary if you have a druid in raid. With expertise cap weapon mastery would become useless aswell although you could argue those 2 points might provide more damage from different stats on gear. Another thing I dont know is how much damage is imp execute.

I was doing some calculations at level 70 over the difference between bloodsurge and dw spec and noticed they were providing similiar damage with dw spec actually doing a bit more even at 4/5 dw, and this was with just offhand swings not taking WW into account. then i figured well why not have both. I would probly need to look at a few lvl 80 fury warrior wws reports to calculate and see how it stands now.

Also wondering how effective heroic fury would be to have, as I can remember countless times in BC where I was sitting there in an ice trap (BT) or roots (SSC) while not being able to do anything. It might also help survivability enough for it to be worth the 1 point.


So the feral buff and rampage do not stack?

I'm going to try w/o bloodsurge and see if I notice any difference but I haven't seen it proc as often as I like so far. Sudden Death was up almost all the timein arms but the BT crit dependence of bloodsurge doesn't seem to keep it up enough when you are using other abilities.

#8 Morsexy

Morsexy

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 432 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:27 PM

OK then. Let this be the Fury DPS thread for non spreadsheet-related questions. If people have questions about Arms DPS, go ahead and start an Arms DPS thread because they're quite different. I'd also like to take this chance to remind everyone that the http://elitistjerks....ing_think_tank/ wants your help. If we had a good Warrior: Fury article it would cut down on a lot of the wasteful posting around here.


I nominate shha, graul, landsoul to make one, or at least we can collaborate.

If one of you or someone else I missed wants to work on one I can set up a rough draft and you can fill in the math stuff and fix any errors. Let me know if you're interested because I wouldn't mind writing one with some backup.

#9 landsoul

landsoul

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,025 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 08:01 PM

Okay, I don't really understand the use of this post. The title says Fury DPS, In depth, but the first post says: We discuss Fury DPS here. Okay, then can you rename the thread to signify its purpose that is: In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion? When I first clicked on it I thought it was going to be some kind of guide.

About thinktank: My first attempt to get in the thinktank author's group failed, I don't know why, but I am trying again. I have gobs of time after winter finals so I would be happy to get one going.

#10 LodeRunner

LodeRunner

    Just an excitable boy

  • Guild Members
  • 4,793 posts

Posted 29 November 2008 - 09:10 PM

Okay, I don't really understand the use of this post. The title says Fury DPS, In depth, but the first post says: We discuss Fury DPS here. Okay, then can you rename the thread to signify its purpose that is: In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion?


Ok, can do.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#11 cerealkilr

cerealkilr

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:14 AM

i have the unfortunate task of having to catch up after having skipped the burning crusade. i feel i was a pretty well informed fury warrior while 60 was the cap. is there anything i should know in terms of what's changed, aside from the obvious stuff that i can figure out if i look closely. for instance, it seems like they may have removed the min 19% miss cap for DW. is that the case? it's just that no one comes right out and says it, for probably obvious reasons. i'm just out of the loop and would like to be back in.

#12 Morsexy

Morsexy

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 432 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 02:07 AM

Okay, I don't really understand the use of this post. The title says Fury DPS, In depth, but the first post says: We discuss Fury DPS here. Okay, then can you rename the thread to signify its purpose that is: In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion? When I first clicked on it I thought it was going to be some kind of guide.

About thinktank: My first attempt to get in the thinktank author's group failed, I don't know why, but I am trying again. I have gobs of time after winter finals so I would be happy to get one going.


I posted more to just get the thread going here, not to post a guide of any kind until I looked at what we had in the thinktank. Lode posted almost immediately that we didn't have one and I never realized that no one created one for fury.

I was hoping to go back and edit my first post with something, but as I am not the authority on all things fury, didn't want to presume to usurp the place of someone who should really be posting the guide like you landsoul.

#13 landsoul

landsoul

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,025 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 02:14 AM

Well if it were possible you could update the first post with what longstanding ideas need to be discussed or what important issues are being discussed at the time. With so much new content out I'm sure there are many things that people can contribute with, and If it were possible to keep up with the thread (which is hard) one could update what the hot topics of discussion are and what problems need to be solved or what ideas need to be clarified. I don't personally take credit for being THE person to compile information, but I am willing to do with work to help.

#14 Nehum

Nehum

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 04:25 AM

I think its a great idea to start getting some stuff out in the open and start to get the compilation going. I personally don't mind doing the legwork, and helping out as much as I can. Math is not my strong suit, so I won't be much help there. We should all work together on this and make sure its a living document. Here's some stuff I've been putting together to help my guild out. It covers most of the basics, and gets into some of the theory-crafting I think we want to get into:

Let's start with spec. Talent trees are very important to the success of any class. Here is the link to the raid spec I have been raiding with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. The points I've placed in arms should be included in any fury spec. If rage generation is an issue, and this would mainly apply to toons having just turned 80 who aren't well geared, adding Anger Management could prove very helpful. There is a little room for customization in the fury tree on the first three tiers, but beyond that, this build provides the highest DPS for our class. Adding points in Improved Demoralizing Shout or Commanding Prescence may help the raid if utility isn't provided elsewhere. Remember, Battle Shout is trumped by Blessing of Might, and Rampage by Leader of the Pack. You can only have one major buff to each stat in the Wrath environment, and Leader of the Pack and Blessing of Might are actually better for the raid, as they do not require a trigger and do not have to be refreshed mid-combat. However, I don't know whether or not Commanding Shout has lost its effectiveness. Does it get trumped by something else? If not, then specing for Commanding Presecence may actually be viable.

I've also seen many advocates for adding Heroic Fury, but I haven't been exposed to enough raiding content to say whether or not it is helpful. In some pre-Wrath encounters, it was very helpful to have a PvP trinket equiped to get out of things like Ice Block and Slows. IF this talent can get you out of things like that in Wrath content, that it could be quite valuable on encounters that would otherwise require us to equip a PvP trinket. Then we can keep our DPS trinkets, and still have the benefit of the effect of the trinket. Or even if we still wear the trinket, we would have the benefit of its effect twice as often.

In regards to weapon speed, SLOW/SLOW is most definitly the way to go. WW is far and away our most damaging attack. If you run fast weapons, you significantly lower the dmg done by WW. Rage generation is not an issue for fury warriors. It can be streaky at times, but as long as your crit and hit rating are high enough, it should be easy to maintain the use of Heroic Strike on most main-hand attacks, and keep BT and WW off of cooldown. Unfortunatley (and damn you for this Blizzard) our rotation hasn't changed since Vanilla WoW. BT - WW - BT - BT - WW and rage dumping with Heroic Strike when over 50 rage. Blah, I'm sick of it. Things have gotten a but more interesting with the addition of Bloodsurge, which fury warriors should cleary spec for. The trick is that when you proc a BT crit, you have 5 seconds to use the instant slam. So, wait for the open global cooldown before you use the slam. In otherwords, BT crit, then WW (if it is up), and then use the Slam.

As far as stats go, Strength is still the primary attribute for a Fury Warrior. It yields a higher increase in DPS than any other stat. With the soft hit cap for Titan's Grip (TG) being at 361 (with Percision (3)), hit is also a priority stat. However, the absolute hit cap is clearly unrealistic, as it was Pre-Wrath. Thus after 361, hit rating does begin to suffer diminishing returns. Again, I am not an expert in math, but from what I have seen in-game, this seems to be the case. This doesn't mean to avoid hit rating or stop taking pieces with hit on it. What it means is that it is more than likely more beneficial to gem and enchant for Str and Crit after you reach the soft hit cap.

After Str and enough hit to get to the soft hit cap, critical strike rating is incredibly valuable. What I find intriguing is that it now appears that Agility and Crit Rating are calculated 1-to-1. Pre-Wrath, the equation was 33 Agility = 22 Crit Rating = 1% Crit. While examining my character sheet in game today, I noticed that it took the same amount of agility to get 1% crit as it did Crit Rating. Somewhere around 45 of either stat produced 1% crit. Does anyone have any concrete numbers on this particular equation? This could change the way we look at Agility because Agility also produces armor, which in turn produces Attack Power via Armored to the Teeth. It may not be a large return in Attack Power, but it is something.

It is important to maintaina high Critical Strike Percentage so as to allow for as close to a 100% uptime on Rampage (in the abscence of a Feral Druid) and Flurry as possible. With a Windfury totem in play, and a Flurry up, we gain an astounding 41% haste (25% from flurry, and 16% from Windfury). That takes the speed of a 3.5 second weapon all the way down to a 2.1 second swing. Any guild that is at least somewhat organized will have two shamans in a 25-man raid, thus allowing for a WF totem to be down. This allows for very consistent rage generation. Swinging that fast and hitting as hard a 2H weapon does creates a great deal of rage. Having a high hit rating combined with a high critical strike chance allows for us to maintain a very consistent rotation, and allows the use of Heroic Strike on most Main-Hand attacks. Frankly, I've had issues with not being able to dump rage fast enough.

This abundence of haste also allows us to make easier determiniations on the value of stats on gear. Any haste rating past 41% is going to be subject to significant diminishing returns. Such is the nature of stats which are based on percentages. Thus, haste rating on gear looses its effectiveness. This makes haste arguably the least valueable stat we can have on gear, and in my opinion, makes Armor Penetration far better than haste.

Expertise is also an important stat for us. I would argue it is at least as valuable as Critical Strike chance. Dodged and Parried BT and WW's are just bad. So we should most definitly be stacking expertise so as to push them down the combat table, if not off it completely.

#15 Fallacy

Fallacy

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 05:30 AM

However, I don't know whether or not Commanding Shout has lost its effectiveness. Does it get trumped by something else? If not, then specing for Commanding Presecence may actually be viable.


It would be the Imp's Blood Pact that is the comparable buff to Commanding Shout, but CS is superior even without Commanding Presence. I ended up being the only DPS warrior in the group I raid with at 80 so far, so I find myself using it all the time.

#16 LodeRunner

LodeRunner

    Just an excitable boy

  • Guild Members
  • 4,793 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 06:18 AM

With a Windfury totem in play, and a Flurry up, we gain an astounding 41% haste (25% from flurry, and 16% from Windfury). That takes the speed of a 3.5 second weapon all the way down to a 2.1 second swing. Any guild that is at least somewhat organized will have two shamans in a 25-man raid, thus allowing for a WF totem to be down. This allows for very consistent rage generation. Swinging that fast and hitting as hard a 2H weapon does creates a great deal of rage.


There is a 2 point Shaman talent, Improved Windfury Totem, that all Enh Shamans will pick up, boosting it from 16% to 20%. This brings our total up to 45% from 41%.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#17 Vhad

Vhad

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 385 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 08:03 AM

I did several WWS tests on the boss dummy in Ironforge. Guildy of mine had a suspicion that TG was bugged and didn't actually give -5% hit or some other bug involved, anyway. These are the tests I did.

Wow Web Stats

314 hit rating in that setup, and as you can see only 1 miss, I was present all of the time and didn't notice the miss my self.

Wow Web Stats

again with 314 hit rating and no misses at all.

Now I realize that it's not extensive enough testing to conclude anything, but it does indicate that there is something up with missrates on specials and/or TG. I've got more hitrating now and so does my guildies and I don't remember what we had for our Naxx raids and such so can't really use those reports to prove anything. I figured it was worth posting about anyway, perhaps more will do some testing and we can conclude something final from it.


Another topic I've not seen discussed is the various enchants available and which ones to aim for on endgame weapons for maximum performance.

There's 3 or 4 options depending on how the work with boss armor calculations turn out.

Massacre - 110 static attack power, turns into 121 attack power with imp berserker stance.

Berserking - 400 attack power -25% armor for 15 seconds, all information I could gather so far indicates a 1ppm on this. With ATTT in raid setting giving me around 230 attackpower, this proc turns out to give 382~attack power pr proc. Unless my math is wrong this should mean that at 1ppm and 15 second duration it's weaker than Massacre. Further testing needs to be done here I'm sure I'm not correct with all this.

Accuracy - 25 hit and crit rating. I'm still relatively new to warrior TC and just not sure what to say about this enchant, I guess it could be worth getting if you're severely under the hit cap.

Executioner - The only thing that didn't get hit by the rating conversion as far as I know. It's still unknown what most bosses armor values are, but the screenshot from Lactose indicates that boss armor at lvl 80 is in the ballpark of 10,000-13,000. Now this leaves this proc quite potent since we lost alot of armor reducing debuffs. Fully debuffed raidbosses gets -5185 armor between 5xSunder Armor and Fearie Fire. I think I'll leave that there for now as any further discussion on that topic from me would be a bit uninformed, hoping some people will take up this discussion.

With this information what I'm thinking is 2xMassacre or Executioner MH and Massacre OH will be the best setup.

Edit: It appears I misunderstood something in regards to the PPM mechanic, this leaves berserking to be the best choise even if it procs before an ATtT aura tick. However for the OH it's still up for discussion.
What!?

#18 Roywyn

Roywyn

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,398 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 02:09 PM

Some hunter testing indicates that the miss chance versus bosses is 8% now and not 9%.
The total hits are in the 10000 swing ballpark.

Check the latest posts in the hunter WotLK sheet thread.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#19 Repeek

Repeek

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 779 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 04:36 PM

Some hunter testing indicates that the miss chance versus bosses is 8% now and not 9%.
The total hits are in the 10000 swing ballpark.

Check the latest posts in the hunter WotLK sheet thread.


Could be that when Blizzard removed the 1% chance for all spells to miss for casters it got carried over to melee/ranged attacks as well.

#20 Nehum

Nehum

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 30 November 2008 - 05:34 PM

I did several WWS tests on the boss dummy in Ironforge. Guildy of mine had a suspicion that TG was bugged and didn't actually give -5% hit or some other bug involved, anyway. These are the tests I did.

Wow Web Stats

314 hit rating in that setup, and as you can see only 1 miss, I was present all of the time and didn't notice the miss my self.

Wow Web Stats

again with 314 hit rating and no misses at all.

Now I realize that it's not extensive enough testing to conclude anything, but it does indicate that there is something up with missrates on specials and/or TG. I've got more hitrating now and so does my guildies and I don't remember what we had for our Naxx raids and such so can't really use those reports to prove anything. I figured it was worth posting about anyway, perhaps more will do some testing and we can conclude something final from it.


This could potentially be the case, but I doubt it. You first parse is VERY accurate. You had 3 misses that entire run. Add up the 115 BT's, 116 WW's, 116 HS's and 25 slams, you made 372 attacks. You would expect to have 3.7 misses if you had a 1% miss chance, which is about what you have with 314 hit rating. So having a variance or .7% isn't bad. Remember, these percentage based things are re-calculated on EVERY attack. So while you expect to get numbers in the general vacinity of your stats, you won't always. I've had parses where, with 438 hit rating, I have had a <1% miss chance on WHITE attacks. Variance is part of these scripts.


Another topic I've not seen discussed is the various enchants available and which ones to aim for on endgame weapons for maximum performance.

There's 3 or 4 options depending on how the work with boss armor calculations turn out.

Massacre - 110 static attack power, turns into 121 attack power with imp berserker stance.

Berserking - 400 attack power -25% armor for 15 seconds, all information I could gather so far indicates a 1ppm on this. With ATTT in raid setting giving me around 230 attackpower, this proc turns out to give 382~attack power pr proc. Unless my math is wrong this should mean that at 1ppm and 15 second duration it's weaker than Massacre. Further testing needs to be done here I'm sure I'm not correct with all this.

Accuracy - 25 hit and crit rating. I'm still relatively new to warrior TC and just not sure what to say about this enchant, I guess it could be worth getting if you're severely under the hit cap.

Executioner - The only thing that didn't get hit by the rating conversion as far as I know. It's still unknown what most bosses armor values are, but the screenshot from Lactose indicates that boss armor at lvl 80 is in the ballpark of 10,000-13,000. Now this leaves this proc quite potent since we lost alot of armor reducing debuffs. Fully debuffed raidbosses gets -5185 armor between 5xSunder Armor and Fearie Fire. I think I'll leave that there for now as any further discussion on that topic from me would be a bit uninformed, hoping some people will take up this discussion.

With this information what I'm thinking is 2xMassacre or Executioner MH and Massacre OH will be the best setup.

Edit: It appears I misunderstood something in regards to the PPM mechanic, this leaves berserking to be the best choise even if it procs before an ATtT aura tick. However for the OH it's still up for discussion.


For me, the verdict is VERY much still out on this one. Personally, I think Berserking will be the way to go for us, but then again, I don't know how the -25% armor plays out in the math. For this one, I would need to yield to someone far more skilled in mathematics. I truthfully think Executioner will not be the way to go, but then again, I am not a math major. I study religion, so all that complicate math stuff is far out of my league. The math I did above is about the extent of my ability =P. All I can say is that Massacre is more valuable than Accuracey. 25 crit/hit is less valuable than 110 AP. Unless of course someone is short on crit or hit. In that case, then take the Accuracey. Mongoose may also be a viable option for us. 120 agility, if I'm right about Agility and Crit rating being 1-to-1, is equal to a 3% critical strike chance, just as it was Pre-Wrath. The haste means nothing, but 3% crit could potentially be valuable. We have anyone browsing this forum who can do all the calculations on this stuff?

And thanks to the guys who made comments about the WF totem and the Commanding Shout. The fact that WF produces that much more haste makes haste even more useless on gear. I would also change the spec I currently have displayed, taking out the three points in Imporoved Cleave, and placing them in Commanding Prescence.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users