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In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion


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#21 Vhad

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 07:35 PM

Well as I've gathered since posting, beserking will indeed be best on the mainhand, at >1,1ppm it's better than Massacre. It also seems like ATTT is an aura that recalcs every 30 seconds, and ATTT doesnt reduce armor based on debuffs/buffs, meaning that if ATTT ticks before a berserker proc you'll get full 400, but if procs after a ATTT tick it'll give less.

I think you're right with executioner though, all bosses have ~8k after debuffs making arpen less valuable untill much higher gear levels.
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#22 Xerophyte

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 07:55 PM

Don't start reading too much into the AttT pulsing effect. If AttT is up for slices of x seconds and berserking has an uptime of 50% (or whatever) then 50% of all x-second slices will be affected, whether 0.1 seconds or 1 hour. The averages are identical.

There's going to be an effect on very short boss fights where the internal cooldown on AttT guarantees you'll not have an ap reduction for the initial seconds, which works in berserking's favour. On the other hand procs are in a sense less efficient on short fights as you're guaranteed not to have them for the first few seconds either. Both of these effects are reasonably small and not really worth worrying about.

The short of it is that for the purposes of everyday theorycraft this is a negligible mechanic. Just treat it the same as if AttT updated instantly.

#23 Vhad

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 08:30 PM

Well I mentioned it because even if you got unlucky and only had it proc before attt tick, it's still better than massacre at >1,1ppm and with our special usage it's closer to 2ppm.
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#24 Anaximander

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 08:47 PM

Nehum, Crit Rating continues to be superior to Agility at providing crit chance.

From http://elitistjerks....ngs_level_80_a/ :

45 Crit Rating = 1% Crit.
62 AGI = 1% Crit for Warriors.


This leads to the interesting question of which Metagem is superior:

Relentless Earthsiege Diamond
or
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond

Although the Relentless provides less crit chance, it only requires one (relatively useless) blue gem, instead of the two blue gems required for the Chaotic. I think this makes the Relentless the better choice when using high end gems.

#25 Symphonia

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:13 PM

I'd definitely say relentless is better. Relentless is .34% crit, with chaotic being .46% crit. With kings, relentless is pushed up to .37%~ crit. This leaves chaotic with .09% more crit. But, as mentioned earlier, with relentless you have 1 less blue to worry about. This can be the difference between using and .

#26 Mordenthal

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:17 PM

So am I right in thinking the best option for a TG warr will be to stack +hit gems until you reach the 361 soft cap?

#27 Lolli

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 10:19 PM

so as far as tg dps is concerned, would it be best to enchant both with berserking, massacre or one of each ?. As far as I understand, the ap loss along with uptime of berserking calculates to less benefit than massacre would (something like 75 ap avg.). What is the ppm mechanic discrepancy mentioned before that makes berserking best ?

#28 Morsexy

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 04:25 AM

so as far as tg dps is concerned, would it be best to enchant both with berserking, massacre or one of each ?. As far as I understand, the ap loss along with uptime of berserking calculates to less benefit than massacre would (something like 75 ap avg.). What is the ppm mechanic discrepancy mentioned before that makes berserking best ?


I think we need to make this a priority to get solved. I unfortunately didn't have the mats to get my offhand enchanted with Berserking, I put massacre on it. My gut feeling was Massacre would be better since I was assuming at a max .75 PPM from the offhand

We need to establish several things concretely. Not what Wowhead says or state what we think as fact.

1. Does AttT actually only give you ((12,000*.75)\ 180 ) * 3 effectively rendering berserking to ~350 attack power?
2. Mongoose and Berserking are the same exact PPM?
3. Does Bers refresh, or give two buffs. If two are given, and mongoose PPM is the same for offhand, roughly 50% of MH procs if I remember.

Berserking needs to be up 19 seconds ( if it is modified by AttT ) from the offhand for a 1.2 PPM to be better than Massacre.

#29 fatl

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 07:09 AM

I'd definitely say relentless is better. Relentless is .34% crit, with chaotic being .46% crit. With kings, relentless is pushed up to .37%~ crit. This leaves chaotic with .09% more crit. But, as mentioned earlier, with relentless you have 1 less blue to worry about. This can be the difference between using and .


I would agree that in most cases Relentless would be a better choice but I would also argue that it is very gear dependent. If you can get good socket bonus' from blue slots then I would recommend using Chaotic to pick up the bonus.

#30 Shha

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:15 AM

I can consider helping with thinktank in few days, but right now my life is pretty hectic O_o. If the idea is still around in a week or so, Ill gladly help.

#31 Maykel

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:28 AM

Does the 25% armor decrease from Berserking influence AttT? Does anyone know this for sure?
Haven't been able to actually see if it does and I haven't seen any reports yet it actually does, it's mostly speculation it does. I'm not sure (I just don't know since I never payed attention to it) if Sunder Armor or Devotion Aura influence AttT. So what it comes down to is that I'm wondering if AttT gets calculated on buffs/debuffs you have or if it only gets calculated on your gear.

My apologies if this has been answered somewhere else yet, I just haven't been able to find the information on it.

#32 DarkS

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 09:31 AM

Nehum, Crit Rating continues to be superior to Agility at providing crit chance.

From http://elitistjerks....ngs_level_80_a/ :

45 Crit Rating = 1% Crit.
62 AGI = 1% Crit for Warriors.


This leads to the interesting question of which Metagem is superior:

Relentless Earthsiege Diamond
or
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond

Although the Relentless provides less crit chance, it only requires one (relatively useless) blue gem, instead of the two blue gems required for the Chaotic. I think this makes the Relentless the better choice when using high end gems.



This might be true for all warriors except for Jewelcrafter's. You can put the Prismatic Jewelcrafters gems (up to 3) on blue sockets because they counts as any of the colors. This really helps avoiding the mix DPS/STA gems needed for metagems :)

#33 Khab

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:32 AM

I wonder there are the good old days of Warrior Theory Crafting forum where ppl care and post maths/thought . I guess they all busy with RL, busy with guilds for new expan or just dont care to min/max for this easy and early content.


But still there's some good things on the table, let's focus back to the discussion :


Weapon Speed :

You wanna go Slow 2H MH/Anything here as long as it's 2H and its have good DPS/stats.

Reason : there's Weapon normalization for instant warrior skills.
The only ability that require Slow weapon speed to have good scaling is Heroic Strike and Slam which is not Instant (slam is instant because of bloodsurge buff, the ability itself is not instant cast)
Bloodthirst scale base on your AP, so SLOW or FAST doest matter because it doesn't scale with your weapon dmg.

Here is the tricky part : WW is instant.
You can say Slow weapon got better weapon dmg, but most of your dmg come from AP since your have some where near 5k AP raid buff now.
Your 5K AP with 3.3 speed normalization bring you almost 1200 Weapon dmg, the different of a slow 2H weapon and a fast 2H weapon is somewhere around 50.
Your OH have -25% dmg penalty so the different bettwen OH WW dmg from Slow 2H and Fast 2H with hardly be noticeable

Basicly just chose a good OH with nice DPS and good stats (aka : str, alot of Crit, Hit, AP ......., just stay away from too much Agi, Armor Pen, Haste)
But you might wanna stay away from faster than 3.2 speed OH, because that will hurt your Flurry uptime.

Sumary OH can be somewhere 3.2~3.7, dont worry too much about waiting to loot a slow OH weapon with your DKP.


Chants :

Berserker chants is good, but it dont stack. You might want Berserker for your MH but 110AP is good to go too and it way cheaper.

What i don't like about Procing chants now is TG Warrior RAGE is too spiky. You dont want too many proc and end up 1 Swing full rage and you stay that way for awhile . And sometime you just dont have rage to Heroic Strike.
Constant flow of Heroic strike is way better for your DPS then some spiky rage.
I Surgest 2X 110AP, or Exutioner for MH(old,cheap but still got some where the same benifit as 110AP as long as you still have somewhere 10% Armor pen left)

Stats/gear :

I must do alot more test but i guess there's some sheet lying around here and there already. Let's keep it simple and good for gemming :

Pick every good Plate/Leather 80 Epic DPS gear that you can get from Heroics, Naxx10, Naxx25, OS10/25, Malygos10/25 and badges gear

After start to gem for :

Hit cap which i believe to be 10% with 3/3 precision
Expertise cap which is 4% with 2/2 Weapon mastery
Crit until you got 30% crit unbuff in zerker. You will need those Crit for your Flurry and the stacking of Deep Wound.

After that everything back to good old pure STR gems. But don't believe me about this point of pure STR gem. I still hesitage for myself about After Good Attack table (no dodge no yellow missed, no diminishing Crit%) and good percent of Crit to maintain somewhere 85~90% Flurry what should Warriors do.

There's alot of things on my mind :

Get Haste. Shammy totem give us 1.16*1.04 haste which is around 1.2064 (not 1.2 as is 16%+4% flat add) And Flurry give us 1.25 which mean the total is 1.508 haste. But i still worry about too much haste will make Flurry uptime goes down, and when you have BL + alot of haste, your Flurry uptime will be bad.

Get Armour Pen. I'm pretty sure this option will be viable later on when we have T8 or T9 gears, but let's leave it now, we're at T7.

Get more HIT. As long as we're not HS on more than 50% of our MH Swing, more Hit is still viable Option
Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

#34 Yazuka

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:52 AM

Berserking enchant does stack and gives 880 AP. Having both procs up i lose 100 AP through armored to the teeth with having 12085 Armor

#35 Sabrewarrior

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 11:53 AM

When you lose 25% armour the second time, is it 25% of the 75% or is it 25%+25% leading to a 50% armour loss? also berserking seems like an enchant that actually scales backwards as we get better gear making massacre and exec more and more useful. exec will be king with high arp rating at the end of the day anyway. would be interesting to see if exec counts after arp rating or before.
meuw le meuw, mush ri mush, grum so grum

#36 Crunck

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 12:00 PM

I still see a lot of speculative builds with 5/5 in commanding presence for the BS buff. with the AP gain compared to imp BOM being so miniscule, i see these as wasted points. certain fights in wotlk raid content (im thinking gluth here specifically, but aoe packs in general) would benefit from imp cleave and howl signifcantly over the stam buff from CS, which after imp BOM becomes the next logical step.

I'm also considering changing my glyph from increased BS duration because from my POV i'd rather a pallie burn a ocnsumable for a 15 min buff than me ditch rage in a 3 min buff, hell, keep up CS instead, free sta is always nice.

first post btw, hi all.

#37 Switz

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 12:05 PM

I have a quick addition to the gem discussion that you may or may not find useful. I have gemmed my Nesingwary 4000 with an Enchanted Tear (+6 all stats, limit 1 in your gear, matches any socket). The reason I did this is it 1) provides the socket bonus of 8 AP and 2) by itself fulfills the 1R1Y1B requirement of Relentless Earthsiege Diamond. I may find later that this won't be the best option, but in my initial gearing I am finding myself replacing much of my gear with socketless replacements. Getting your blue match out of the way with a gem that gives 6 strength and 6 agility is pretty useful in my opinion.

#38 Khab

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 12:07 PM

When you lose 25% armour the second time, is it 25% of the 75% or is it 25%+25% leading to a 50% armour loss? also berserking seems like an enchant that actually scales backwards as we get better gear making massacre and exec more and more useful. exec will be king with high arp rating at the end of the day anyway. would be interesting to see if exec counts after arp rating or before.


Mob Modified Armour = ( Mob Armour - Sunder - CoR/FF ) * ( 1 - Armour Pen Rating%) - 830 from Executioner proc


exc count after Armour Pen rating . That's why i said good old Exc will work fine if u still have some where 10% Armour pen rating

On Side note, if you have 0 Armour Pen Rating. Exc still not so bad

Bosses have 13083 Armour
Sunder and FF Bring it down to 7898 Armour it's 34.15% Dmg Reduction
Exc proc bring it down to 7068 and it's 31.7% DR

So Exc give you somewhere 2.5% dmg even without any Armour Pen Rating. If you have some where 10% Armour pen you get somewhere near 3~3.5% Benifit from Exc Proc

Thought?

Btw my bad about Berserking, but still i don't like that chant really.
Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

#39 Symphonia

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 02:07 PM

I still see a lot of speculative builds with 5/5 in commanding presence for the BS buff. with the AP gain compared to imp BOM being so miniscule, i see these as wasted points. certain fights in wotlk raid content (im thinking gluth here specifically, but aoe packs in general) would benefit from imp cleave and howl signifcantly over the stam buff from CS, which after imp BOM becomes the next logical step.

I'm also considering changing my glyph from increased BS duration because from my POV i'd rather a pallie burn a ocnsumable for a 15 min buff than me ditch rage in a 3 min buff, hell, keep up CS instead, free sta is always nice.

first post btw, hi all.

This is mostly true for 25 mans, but you aren't guaranteed to have a paladin with imp might in 10 mans. And even if you do have a paladin with imp might, they might also have kings, meaning you should shout if you want kings. Imp cleave damage gain is too minuscule (especially for the amount of boss fights you actually use cleave) to warrant giving up utility in 10 mans, at least in my opinion.

#40 Oliria

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 02:31 PM

I just started 25 man Naxx yesterday - and so far we cleared 3 wings. we couldn't really get past Patchwerk cause of tankgear and the amount of healers we brought.. anyway, I found fury to be very powerful but arms seems to lack behind alot. Yes I tried both yesterday, arms 1 wing, fury the 2 others.

I find this a little depressing, because arms is so much more fun atm - reaktive abilities and an interesting rotation. I know this i a fury discussion but there is no arms discussion atm (and I still need a few replies to actually be able to start one myself) but have anyone had any luck with arms raiding?

Can arms compete atm? or is fury just a "must specc"




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