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In-Depth Fury DPS Discussion


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#41 Ithelia

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:01 PM

I just started 25 man Naxx yesterday - and so far we cleared 3 wings. we couldn't really get past Patchwerk cause of tankgear and the amount of healers we brought.. anyway, I found fury to be very powerful but arms seems to lack behind alot. Yes I tried both yesterday, arms 1 wing, fury the 2 others.

I find this a little depressing, because arms is so much more fun atm - reaktive abilities and an interesting rotation. I know this i a fury discussion but there is no arms discussion atm (and I still need a few replies to actually be able to start one myself) but have anyone had any luck with arms raiding?

Can arms compete atm? or is fury just a "must specc"


Personally after having tried both, once you get good enough gear for fury (soft hitcap, 30 crit in zerk unbuffed, decent strength etc.) there is a very small window, extremely small, in which arms is competetive with fury atm. Even though arms might provide a "funnier" rotation, I still dislike having to rely on procs as much as you do with arms spec. Blizzard have basically designed fury to now be the real highend dps spec in pve raids. However we will always see a few people who just can't get away from the classic arms tree but overall, fury is your spec in pve.

#42 Emeraude

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:26 PM

I still see a lot of speculative builds with 5/5 in commanding presence for the BS buff. with the AP gain compared to imp BOM being so miniscule, i see these as wasted points. certain fights in wotlk raid content (im thinking gluth here specifically, but aoe packs in general) would benefit from imp cleave and howl signifcantly over the stam buff from CS, which after imp BOM becomes the next logical step.

I'm also considering changing my glyph from increased BS duration because from my POV i'd rather a pallie burn a ocnsumable for a 15 min buff than me ditch rage in a 3 min buff, hell, keep up CS instead, free sta is always nice.

first post btw, hi all.


Even if you have a Paladin on Blessing of Might duty with Imp BoM, you still want 5/5 Commanding Presence for Commanding Shout.
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#43 Daronsk

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 07:25 PM

I don't see putting the points into imp cleave over commanding presence as very usefull at least in the content that is open at the moment. The extra health from commanding shout vs imp buff is quite useful especially since you should be range of the tank with it. I would argue that perhaps taking one point out of commanding presence for piercing howl might be worth it, as the the aoe snare would be useful in several fights versus the 5% more health to commanding shout.

Something that I think we should start looking into is: how good is enrage for our dps? Their are plenty of fights with aoe damage or raid damage of some sort and we can anticipate that its not a trend thats going away. Add to this that high end gear now is VERY heavy in hit and expertise and you end up in a situation where taking points out of precision or weapon mastery may be beneficial as extra hit/expertise past cap is niegh useless.

So the issues to address are these:

1 pt in enrage > 32 hit rating past cap?
1 pt in enrage > 1 pt in improved execute?

Now we can only do this on a case to case basis for bosses obviously as Patchwork will have 0% uptime for enrage but loatheb may be >50% uptime. Also, just how good is imp execute and does it beat 1 pt in enrage on the average (or even on specific boss encounters that are dps checks). I think if your concentration is on 25 man raids dropping a point in rampage makes this discussion immediatly relevent even for those not reaching and breaking the hit/expertise soft caps.

Edit:
on the Beserking versus Massacre issue...
Couldn't we just model this as a simple uptime% vs armor graph by doing the following.

Beserking losses the following ap due to Attt:
X - your armor
(X / 4) * 3/180 = X / 240

So we can make the formula with Y - %uptime of beserking...
110 < 400Y - X/240
to show when beserking would be better then massacre. Ohh and this simplifies to...
Y > [110 + (X/240)] / 400
Which would be easy to plot and figure out especially if we can get some solid uptime% numbers for MH beserking and OH beserking.

#44 landsoul

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 07:48 PM

@ armor penetration:

With mid level Naxx25 gear and max raid buffs. I inflated my AP values using my spreadsheet. A point of ArP matched a point in Strength at ~12850 buffed attack power. I then added a fake 750 ArP rating to the same gear and ArP matched STR at ~9990 buffed attack power. You should avoid Armor penetration items at this point unless they are on a really sexy piece. One exception would be The trinket just because it has an insanely massive amount of ArP, because the alternatives have haste, which is worse, or the 25 man Malygos neck quest reward.

@ haste

We all know that haste rating multiplies by every other differing speed increase across the board. One thinks that this does many things: provides increasing returns to attack speed. True. Increases the frequency of Deep Wounds. True. May be a great stat at super high gear levels. Increases the frequency of our heroic strikes. Only true if you heroic strike 100% of the time. Again, performing the same test using armor penetration, Haste matched STR at ~17750 buffed attack power.

The key to all of this is that every time you increase one stat, it also increases the value of each point of strength. Strength does not have static worth. Strength is our juice. It is our koolaid in our hot summer days.



Improved Windfury adds 4% to its 16% to match with Icy talons to 20%, AFAIK. We are all aware of multiplicative effects in wow, but does anyone have any data that encourages Imp WF being 20.64%?

#45 Saizul

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 07:56 PM

How important is execute as a fury warrior?

<20% range, is it understood that you should execute on every gcd?

Along these lines:
How valuable is imp execute, the talent?
Is it worthwhile to glyph for execute, especially considering the limited options for an actual DPS increase as a fury warrior?
Should recklessness, deathwish, or trinkets be used during this execute range, or are they more valuable elsewhere?

I apologize for just adding more questions, but I am making the switch to a warrior from mage with wotlk and trying to get my feet on the ground. There is surprisingly little good factual information versus what I am used to seeing in the mage forums, so hopefully I can start contributing instead of adding to the problem soon. =P

Thanks!

#46 Daronsk

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:59 PM

How important is execute as a fury warrior?

<20% range, is it understood that you should execute on every gcd?

Along these lines:
How valuable is imp execute, the talent?
Is it worthwhile to glyph for execute, especially considering the limited options for an actual DPS increase as a fury warrior?
Should recklessness, deathwish, or trinkets be used during this execute range, or are they more valuable elsewhere?

I apologize for just adding more questions, but I am making the switch to a warrior from mage with wotlk and trying to get my feet on the ground. There is surprisingly little good factual information versus what I am used to seeing in the mage forums, so hopefully I can start contributing instead of adding to the problem soon. =P

Thanks!


Bt will do more damage then execute at the following ap levels (with modifiers)
6753ap (no glyph, 0/0 imp execute)
8020ap (glyph, 0/0 imp execute)
8273ap (glpyh, 1/2 imp execute)
8653ap (glpyh, 2/2 imp execute)

I'd say the conventional wisdom at this point would be to add the execute glpyh and spam execute during the <20% range as I doubt 8K ap will be broken without some procs and cooldowns line up. This is only a hard and fast rule when your weapon speed is sub 1.5seconds for auto swings as then your not wasting GCD's. Don't forget heroic throw either as its a good way to fill a GCD that otherwise could get wasted because your auto swings both missed or didn't generate sufficient rage.

#47 Crunck

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 09:28 PM

This is mostly true for 25 mans, but you aren't guaranteed to have a paladin with imp might in 10 mans. And even if you do have a paladin with imp might, they might also have kings, meaning you should shout if you want kings. Imp cleave damage gain is too minuscule (especially for the amount of boss fights you actually use cleave) to warrant giving up utility in 10 mans, at least in my opinion.


In which case it will be a preference, depending on the number of 10/25 man raids you participate in; I personally don't see myself doing many more 10 man raids, for example. Piercing Howl seems too good a utility snare for trash packs to pass up, even if it does mean a sacrifice of a godly 5% of Commanding Shout.

Edit: "many more 10 man raids, for example" - not 25!

#48 LodeRunner

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 09:30 PM

Bt will do more damage then execute at the following ap levels (with modifiers)
6753ap (no glyph, 0/0 imp execute)
8020ap (glyph, 0/0 imp execute)
8273ap (glpyh, 1/2 imp execute)
8653ap (glpyh, 2/2 imp execute)


To clarify for the sake of others, this comparison illustrates damage from a Bloodthirst vs damage from a 30 rage Execute. Most executes will not be 30 rage.
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#49 Nexx

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:23 PM

Something that I think we should start looking into is: how good is enrage for our dps? Their are plenty of fights with aoe damage or raid damage of some sort and we can anticipate that its not a trend thats going away. Add to this that high end gear now is VERY heavy in hit and expertise and you end up in a situation where taking points out of precision or weapon mastery may be beneficial as extra hit/expertise past cap is niegh useless.

So the issues to address are these:

1 pt in enrage > 32 hit rating past cap?
1 pt in enrage > 1 pt in improved execute?

Now we can only do this on a case to case basis for bosses obviously as Patchwork will have 0% uptime for enrage but loatheb may be >50% uptime. Also, just how good is imp execute and does it beat 1 pt in enrage on the average (or even on specific boss encounters that are dps checks). I think if your concentration is on 25 man raids dropping a point in rampage makes this discussion immediatly relevent even for those not reaching and breaking the hit/expertise soft caps.


I wouldn't remove the point in rampage, because the 45 yard limit can be reached (4H, Adds on Thad). Removing the point would also hurt your raid in 10 mans unless you're assuming that you always carry a feral druid. So rather safe than sorry I'd just keep the point there.

Now I've been playing around with trying a couple of PvE builds, but given our tanking shortage -- it's been hard for me to test them.

18/51 is pretty much the standard build, but the last 4 points can be put anywhere.

This leaves the following talents possibilities to put those last 4 points:
Enrage (5)
Intensify Rage (3)
Improved Execute (2)
Furious Attacks (2)
Heroic Fury (1)
Anger Management (1)

I'm going to write down the list of current wrath bosses and try to create an approximate uptime for Enrage. If you want to provide input on the tuning please comment. I'll try to run a WWS and see if I can gauge Enrage uptime that way next Naxx clear I do or if someone has one with the enrage talent.

Malygos - 15% (breaths, vortex)
Sartharion - 10% (adds, probably higher with more drakes up)
Stone Watcher - 10% (AoE)
Noth - 15% (adds, curse, adds aoe)
Heigan - 20% (disease)
Loatheb - 30% (Deathbloom, ID)
Raz - 10% (Shout)
Gothik - 5% on Living, 10% on Dead (Adds) [Does the AoE stat debuff trigger it?]
4H - 45% (Marks, Meteor, Spells)
Anub - 10% (Critters, Impale)
Faerlina - 10% (AoEs)
Maexxna - 10% (Adds)
Patchwerk - 0% (Could the slime trigger it?)
Grobbulus - 5% (Adds, Mutating - You probably couldn't dps that much if it even triggers)
Gluth - 5% (Decimate, Adds)
Thaddius - 20% (Mini Boss, Chain Lightning)
Sapphiron - 80% (AoE Pulse, Blizzard)
KT - 5% (Frost Bolt, Frost Blast)

#50 Daronsk

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:42 PM

Good point on the range restriction, but I think the average fight will have most ranged/melee within 45 yards. I'll respec to have at least a point in enrage next week for our naxx clear and should hopefully be able to bring some numbers to this discussion. Just from a WWS by counting the times that enrage procs and dividing through by the length of the boss fight we could get a rough %uptime within a couple weeks. Of course this number will be skewed downwards if only WWS is used as refreshing procs won't be counted(I think thats how WWS records them). However, with the low uptimes that your predicting to begin with it should be fairly accurate.

Formula:
Enrage count in boss attempt * 12 / Length of fight(in seconds) = % uptime.

#51 DarthGreg

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:47 PM

Can anyone here confirm my observation that Heroic Throw seems to be not delaying, but rather resetting, the swing timer? I've started chaining it off the back of Heroic Strikes and Cleaves with this macro to mitigate DPS loss from using the ability: /castsequence reset=0.2 Heroic Strike, Heroic Throw

#52 Grayson Carlyle

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 11:12 PM

Yes, I've confirmed this through log timestamps and posted in the simple questions thread: Heroic Throw completely resets your swing timer.

#53 Charmath

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 02:09 AM

I saw the expertise caps were missing here, so I thought I'd add those. Also hit caps against trash might be worth to add, if you feel like keeping a seperate set for trash and bosses. Expertise assumes 5.0% dodge against trash and 6.5% dodge against bosses.

Against trash mobs (lvl82)
White hit rating cap (0/3 Precision): 820
Yellow hit rating cap (0/3 Precision): 361
White hit rating cap (3/3 Precision): 722
Yellow hit rating cap (3/3 Precision): 263
Expertise rating cap (0/2 Weapon Mastery): 164
Expertise rating cap (2/2 Weapon Mastery): 99
Expertise rating cap (0/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 123
Expertise rating cap (2/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 58

Against bosses (lvl83)
Expertise rating cap (0/2 Weapon Mastery): 214
Expertise rating cap (2/2 Weapon Mastery): 148
Expertise rating cap (0/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 173
Expertise rating cap (2/2 WM + Orc/Human racial): 107

#54 LodeRunner

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:03 AM

The expertise numbers were like post #5 of the simple questions/answers thread but thanks for the more precise racial breakdown all the same.
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#55 Khab

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:04 AM

@ armor penetration:

With mid level Naxx25 gear and max raid buffs. I inflated my AP values using my spreadsheet. A point of ArP matched a point in Strength at ~12850 buffed attack power. I then added a fake 750 ArP rating to the same gear and ArP matched STR at ~9990 buffed attack power. You should avoid Armor penetration items at this point unless they are on a really sexy piece. One exception would be The trinket just because it has an insanely massive amount of ArP, because the alternatives have haste, which is worse, or the 25 man Malygos neck quest reward.

@ haste

We all know that haste rating multiplies by every other differing speed increase across the board. One thinks that this does many things: provides increasing returns to attack speed. True. Increases the frequency of Deep Wounds. True. May be a great stat at super high gear levels. Increases the frequency of our heroic strikes. Only true if you heroic strike 100% of the time. Again, performing the same test using armor penetration, Haste matched STR at ~17750 buffed attack power.

The key to all of this is that every time you increase one stat, it also increases the value of each point of strength. Strength does not have static worth. Strength is our juice. It is our koolaid in our hot summer days.



Improved Windfury adds 4% to its 16% to match with Icy talons to 20%, AFAIK. We are all aware of multiplicative effects in wow, but does anyone have any data that encourages Imp WF being 20.64%?



In my post i already mention that when TG warrior chose weapon he should stay way from Haste, Armour Pen and too much Agi for now. Stick with Str, AP, Crit, Hit is the key for this early of content is the idea.

About the good old Pure Str gem after make the table good (hit cap, exp cap, 30% crit unbuff) it's the basic idea. I mention Haste, Amour Pen and Hit.

More Hit mean more and contant stream of HS flows. But when you HS more than 50% of your MH Swing, shouldn't get more hit at least for now.
I mentioned that Armour Pen and Haste is not so good for the early of content since we can't get enouch Armour Pen to make it work and Haste hurt Flurry since we dont have high crit. But later on at T8 and T9 that option will be back to the table.

I dont really rely totally on sheets, i use WWS and base my calculation on the number of ability i can perform in a fight that i want to min/max. What sheets can't do for Warrior is they can't really calculate the spiking of rage, and the number of adtional rage/wasted rage for extra stats . So we can't really look on our sheets and say : More str is better since Str benifit Slam,BT,HS dmg by XX%, or More Amour pen is better since it increase the total dmg by YY%.

Personally i aim for a balanced stats. Since raid buff can give Warrior somewhere 1000 AP, i rather working make my Attack table look good to get benifit from Raidbuff rather than i'm look good when i'm alone but don't get much benifit from raid buffs.
Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

#56 Maykel

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:49 AM

18/51 is pretty much the standard build, but the last 4 points can be put anywhere.

With 18/51 it leaves only 2 points left to be put anywhere. And to add to this, do you leave out Rampage for the 'standard' build? My 'standard' build comes to 18/52 which leaves 1 point to play with, a point I put in Piercing Howl so our group of friends was able to do Gluth in 10-man Naxx (we didn't have any slowing effect besides Earthbind Totem of the enhancement shaman).

I'm only starting to wonder if Bloodsurge is worth the 3-points. It only does a small amount of my total damage but I guess that was because of the low crit % I still had. Does anyone have some feedback on this? Is Bloodsurge worth the 3 points even when your crit reaches an acceptable level or would I be better of putting these points in Imp Cleave/Imp Execute/Enrage?

#57 Khab

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 09:02 AM

With 18/51 it leaves only 2 points left to be put anywhere. And to add to this, do you leave out Rampage for the 'standard' build? My 'standard' build comes to 18/52 which leaves 1 point to play with, a point I put in Piercing Howl so our group of friends was able to do Gluth in 10-man Naxx (we didn't have any slowing effect besides Earthbind Totem of the enhancement shaman).

I'm only starting to wonder if Bloodsurge is worth the 3-points. It only does a small amount of my total damage but I guess that was because of the low crit % I still had. Does anyone have some feedback on this? Is Bloodsurge worth the 3 points even when your crit reaches an acceptable level or would I be better of putting these points in Imp Cleave/Imp Execute/Enrage?


Generally:

Execute attribute around 10~12% of total dmg
Slam is about 5~6% if you have around 30% Crit unbuffed

3 point for 6% extra dmg, i do agree that Rage spend on Slam can be spent on HS, but extra attack is alway good for Flurry uptime.
If you spent 2 point in Execute, i dont think that will give you somewhere 1~2% dmg per talent point.
Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

#58 Morsexy

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:43 AM

With 18/51 it leaves only 2 points left to be put anywhere. And to add to this, do you leave out Rampage for the 'standard' build? My 'standard' build comes to 18/52 which leaves 1 point to play with, a point I put in Piercing Howl so our group of friends was able to do Gluth in 10-man Naxx (we didn't have any slowing effect besides Earthbind Totem of the enhancement shaman).

I'm only starting to wonder if Bloodsurge is worth the 3-points. It only does a small amount of my total damage but I guess that was because of the low crit % I still had. Does anyone have some feedback on this? Is Bloodsurge worth the 3 points even when your crit reaches an acceptable level or would I be better of putting these points in Imp Cleave/Imp Execute/Enrage?


I'm going to run naxx tomorrow with 1 point in enrage to see the relative uptime. Slam last week was only 8% of my damage even on loatheb. Yet "only" implies there is a better spot to spend those points.

So that being said, in the rage environment that we currently operate in having 10 rage executes isn't as good anything else we can do with those points that are productive in the least. At 60 with 10 rage executes you could get off hand rage gains allowing you to execute every single global which is very efficient. Since we generally aren't going to achieve that same kind of global 10 rage execute spam, it is not as important ( perhaps switching to 2 fast 1hs is more dps, but thats a different question ). IE you may end up executing every global, but its going to be for 20-40 rage.

So I think its safe to assume that 'filler points' in an ideal raid should go Weapon Mastery - > Execute - > Enrage -> Rampage -> Piercing howl - > Commanding Presence.

I personally never would raid without PH, its just simply too good a talent for 1 point. Of course this isn't really a filler point since you need 15 points spent by the end of tier 3 fury. Something like this is that ideal, whether the math supports 2\2 execute or 4\5 enrage, the point is the same.

#59 Laurana

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 11:56 AM

[...]
I dont really rely totally on sheets, i use WWS and base my calculation on the number of ability i can perform in a fight that i want to min/max. What sheets can't do for Warrior is they can't really calculate the spiking of rage, and the number of adtional rage/wasted rage for extra stats . So we can't really look on our sheets and say : More str is better since Str benifit Slam,BT,HS dmg by XX%, or More Amour pen is better since it increase the total dmg by YY%.

Personally i aim for a balanced stats. Since raid buff can give Warrior somewhere 1000 AP, i rather working make my Attack table look good to get benifit from Raidbuff rather than i'm look good when i'm alone but don't get much benifit from raid buffs.


About two months before the addon, I was working on a complete combat simulation tool to provide some convenient dps data. It was originally planned for enhancement shamans only but I put some thought into an extendable architecture. Sometime along the way, I found out that there already is a quite capable simulation tool for enhancement shamans and lost interest in continuing. My question is: are there any complete combat simulations for fury warriors out there? otherwise I would try and rewrite my tool for fury DPS.

#60 Tankietka

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 12:24 PM

You can find informations about DPS warrior simulations in this thread: http://elitistjerks....-dps_simulator/.

Currently I believe there are two available simulators - in-game one from dr_AllCOM3, and standalone one from me.




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