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WrathCalcs - Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet


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#41 Anastassius

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:58 AM

Modeling Owlkin Frenzy in pretty much hopeless (Or will be very situational) - For common moonkin use I dare claim that theres no good reason to pick Owlkin Frenzy over Brambles (Malygos 5min being the main exception).


Lets take into consideration on how many boss fights do the treants survive more than 10 seconds or if the boss is ''available'' for dps over 30 seconds in a row, without any aoe around him.

#42 Ashaera

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:44 AM

Lets take into consideration on how many boss fights do the treants survive more than 10 seconds or if the boss is ''available'' for dps over 30 seconds in a row, without any aoe around him.


Boss - "available for 30sec just after heroism cast yes/no" - Aoe?

Anub'rekhan - Yes --- Yes impale might kill them, in reality this is a pretty low risk though & they usually survive.
Faerlina - Yes --- There's aoe, but if they die its due to a poor tank/lack of healing & not the encounters fault.
Maexxna - Yes --- No aoe.
Razuvious - Yes --- Distrupting shout wont kill them.
Gothik - Hard to get a full 30sec duration. --- No aoe (looking at the only meaningful casting time).
4h - Yes --- Very strategy dependant, in some cases they will survive full duration & in others they get nuked by 3 boss casts (allthough quite an amazing tool to stabilize a pull / safe ranged tank from slacking healing).
Noth - Yes --- No aoe.
Heigan - Yes --- Tank dependant, but treants will die & fairly fast.
Loatheb - Yes --- Nothing deadly.
Patchwerk - Yes --- No aoe.
Grobbulus - Yes --- Nothing deadly.
Gluth - Yes --- No aoe.
Thaddius - Yes --- Phase 1 nothing / Phase 2 they will die.
Sapphiron - Yes --- They will die.
Kel'thuzad - Yes --- They usually die, but lasts longer than some of the other certain death fights.
Sartharion - Yes --- For 3D perspective they are likely to die in a fissure, but on the other hand brambles helps with adding burst for where it was needed when we had level 70 gear.
Malygos - Yes --- They usually survive.

17 bosses, possible on atleast 16 of those to dps for 30seconds after you popped heroism.
In 10 of the 17 fights chances are very high that they survive for their full duration.
In some cases you can be sure that they wont (Sapphiron, Thaddius p2, 4h some strategies, Heigan) & in others theres a pretty high risk (Sartharion, Kel'thuzad).

So it becomes a matter of preferance, I find it very hard to justify speccing Owl'Kin frenzy before Brambles, but both talents are in the weaker dps department & likely to be dropped if you want more utility or need mana.

#43 thedopefishlives

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:30 PM

Tooltips for SF and Wrath seem to show that Moonfury provides a bit more than 10% benefit to base damage. This was true in BC also.

Untalented SF (according to MMO) is 1028 to 1212. With Moonfury, my tooltip says 1141 to 1345, about an 11% increase.
Untalented Wr (according to MMO) is 553 to 623. With Moonfury and LK Idol (+70) my tooltip says 689 to 767, about a 10.7% increase.


I read somewhere here on EJ that spells gain 5 points of damage per level. This would put Starfire at 1038-1222, which would match your results.

#44 Foxx33

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 06:11 PM

Just a few questions, I apologize if some may seem dumb or have already been answered and I missed the answer somewhere. I just recently went Boomchickin prior to Resto.

1) Does a Feral's FF count towards the IFF talent as far as crit goes?

2) Are you going to add mixology buffs from Alchemy to the Elixirs?

3) a. If you have the Rotation of MF IS Wrath as the "filler" and SF on Eclipse proc, do you keep up MF during Eclipse or just spam SF and MF IS afterwards?
b. Same thing but MF IS SF Filler and Wrath on Eclipse, do you keep up IS for the increased damage buff?

4) When do most of you pop the Potion of Speed? I'm guessing when an eclipse procs?

Thanks, Foxx

#45 Ashaera

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 06:38 PM

1) Yes.
2) Add 37 sp yourself? :)
4) Answered here : http://elitistjerks....41-post415.html

#46 Foxx33

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 06:51 PM

I meant for the OP to add Mixology to the Spreadsheet and Thanks for the replies, but i'm still waiting on an answer to question 3. :)

#47 Adoriele

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 07:01 PM

I meant for the OP to add Mixology to the Spreadsheet and Thanks for the replies, but i'm still waiting on an answer to question 3. :)


I doubt I will. As Ash said, it's fairly easy to add in the extra spellpower yourself, and I'm not sure of the benefits from other flasks/elixirs which would be necessary to fully implement it. Plus, all other professions need to add in their benefits through base stats as well. The only reason I'm supporting Flasks and Elixirs, really, is because they're temporary buffs which don't show up on most people's armory easily enough for them to include on their own.

That said, expect another update soon, to account for the new mana regen nerfs. As predicted, Intensity will be very similar to its previous performance. Innervate, though, is dropping like a rock.

#48 Foxx33

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 07:14 PM

Alright, still no replies as to what you peoplez do. :( Do you keep up mf for sf eclipse or is for wrath eclipse? Like a poll question to see what people think about it, unless it's already proven better otherwise, or am I missing something and looking like a dork? >.<

Edit: Also since Ash said that Feral FF counts for 3% crit i'm going to leave it in my spec, I was debating on dropping the three points in lets say Gale Winds and Maxing out trees :D any suggestions?

#49 Kug

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:51 PM

Hi Adorielle,

First of all, thanks for the Squawk and awe mod which is very useful. Just yesterday i was playing around with this spreadsheet of yours.

I've had terrible luck getting the starfire idol to drop from instructor, and according to your spreadsheet the wrath idol basically sucks (~10dps for the best rotation which is starfire heavy).

I was thinking the blue starfire idol, "Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess" which adds 55 spell damage to starfire would therefore be better dps than the new wrath idol. Since it has 1/3rd the spellpower of the epic version, simplistically I think it should add 1/3rd the dps of the epic version (1/3rd of 150dps is 50dps), and therefore be higher damage for a normal rotation than the wrath idol which only adds ~10dps.

Convenient link to the idol
Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

I briefly experimented adding it myself, but modifying complex excel sheets written by someone else is definitely not my forte. :)


Edit: As a side note but related to this, in Rawr, for a IS/MF/SF rotation (whatever that means as you and others pointed out), the epic starfire idol gives me ~100 dps and the wrath idol gives me ~30 dps. In your spreadsheet model, the epic starfire idol is giving me ~150 dps, and the wrath idol is giving me ~10 dps. That seems like quite a disparity, which could be due to the different models or possibly due to a bug in someone's model?

#50 Adoriele

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:30 PM

Hi Adorielle,

First of all, thanks for the Squawk and awe mod which is very useful. Just yesterday i was playing around with this spreadsheet of yours.

I've had terrible luck getting the starfire idol to drop from instructor, and according to your spreadsheet the wrath idol basically sucks (~10dps for the best rotation which is starfire heavy).

I was thinking the blue starfire idol, "Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess" which adds 55 spell damage to starfire would therefore be better dps than the new wrath idol. Since it has 1/3rd the spellpower of the epic version, simplistically I think it should add 1/3rd the dps of the epic version (1/3rd of 150dps is 50dps), and therefore be higher damage for a normal rotation than the wrath idol which only adds ~10dps.

Convenient link to the idol
Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

I briefly experimented adding it myself, but modifying complex excel sheets written by someone else is definitely not my forte. :)


Edit: As a side note but related to this, in Rawr, for a IS/MF/SF rotation (whatever that means as you and others pointed out), the epic starfire idol gives me ~100 dps and the wrath idol gives me ~30 dps. In your spreadsheet model, the epic starfire idol is giving me ~150 dps, and the wrath idol is giving me ~10 dps. That seems like quite a disparity, which could be due to the different models or possibly due to a bug in someone's model?


Rawr's engine is being overhauled for the next release, and the new engine looks to rate the Idol similarly to how WC does, at least for someone in gear close to mine. As for dealing with the 70 idol, you're probably right that the DPS benefit will be ~1/3 of the Epic idol. If you'd like to change it, though, go to the Starfire Calcs page and edit C3. Near the end should be 165, change it to 55 and you're all set. I may have changed this since release, though, so just to be safe you'll want to do it on the new version, 1.1.4, which I'm tossing up in the next few minutes.

As noted before, 1.1.4 has the mana regen nerfs. It also changes the Eclipse Rotation Type field to be more intuitive (yet again), and changes IS,MF,Eclipse rotation to more accurately reflect newer thoughts in DoT upkeep. Namely, it assumes you cast both IS and MF twice, just as Eclipse ends and just before the ICD ends. The mana calculations for this, and the Wrath version of this rotation, or not yet fully-implemented.

#51 Hamlet

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:37 PM

As noted before, 1.1.4 has the mana regen nerfs. It also changes the Eclipse Rotation Type field to be more intuitive (yet again), and changes IS,MF,Eclipse rotation to more accurately reflect newer thoughts in DoT upkeep. Namely, it assumes you cast both IS and MF twice, just as Eclipse ends and just before the ICD ends. The mana calculations for this, and the Wrath version of this rotation, or not yet fully-implemented.


So it assumes you clip MF right before starting to cast Wrath?

#52 Adoriele

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:47 PM

So it assumes you clip MF right before starting to cast Wrath?


Yeah. Technically, it just assumes you tick every 3s no matter what, but since I doubt anyone's going to have gear that results in a 48s average rotation, I'm content to leave that in. I can change it if it's an issue.

I also don't think it's necessarily the right way to go yet, but it's better than before.

#53 Erdluf

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 04:54 AM

Yeah. Technically, it just assumes you tick every 3s no matter what, but since I doubt anyone's going to have gear that results in a 48s average rotation, I'm content to leave that in. I can change it if it's an issue.

I also don't think it's necessarily the right way to go yet, but it's better than before.


For the MF+IS+Eclipse rotation, in TotalDamage, I changed ... D9/3*MFTickDamage ... to ... min(D9/3, 2*(MFNumTicks+IF(GSFActive,3,0)))*MFTickDamage ... Otherwise the SF glyph gets no DPS value.

#54 Kug

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 10:26 PM

If you'd like to change it, though, go to the Starfire Calcs page and edit C3. Near the end should be 165, change it to 55 and you're all set. I may have changed this since release, though, so just to be safe you'll want to do it on the new version, 1.1.4, which I'm tossing up in the next few minutes.


For version 1.1.4, it now can be done in cell C3 like you said. (per your input I found it in cell C5 in version 1.1.3). Thanks for your help.

#55 Kug

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 10:57 PM

I think I may have discovered a problem with one of the rotations in version 1.1.4.

To replicate it do this:

Download the posted copy of 1.1.4.
Change the idol to S. Renewal.
Set the active rotation to: MF, IS, Starfire Filler
Set the eclipse rotation to: Solar

Now look at the dps coming from the Idol. It will read 0.00 dps. Since the rotation is 'solar' I assume the intent is to wrath during the proc, and starfire during cooldown and keep starfiring until the next proc. By doing that, you are wrathing about 10-seconds out of every minute, so I don't see how the idol could be producing 0.00 dps. Also, the total dps for those settings seems extraordinarily low (2300 dps using the defaults when every other rotation is 3,000+).

Edit: All of the 'starfire filler' choices seem to produce this same result (zero dps using the wrath idol).

#56 Adoriele

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:01 PM

I think I may have discovered a problem with one of the rotations in version 1.1.4.

To replicate it do this:

Download the posted copy of 1.1.4.
Change the idol to S. Renewal.
Set the active rotation to: MF, IS, Starfire Filler
Set the eclipse rotation to: Solar

Now look at the dps coming from the Idol. It will read 0.00 dps. Since the rotation is 'solar' I assume the intent is to wrath during the proc, and starfire during cooldown and keep starfiring until the next proc. By doing that, you are wrathing about 10-seconds out of every minute, so I don't see how the idol could be producing 0.00 dps. Also, the total dps for those settings seems extraordinarily low (2300 dps using the defaults when every other rotation is 3,000+).


Oops. I figured out what's going on here, I'll get it updated when I have a chance.

#57 markos82

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 10:47 AM

ok this Wow Web Stats is latest WWS ( from last night ).

From some reason i only did about 4000dps ( probably has to do something with lack of shaman and his buffs and heroism ) since i average about 4600dps ( i don't have WWS since we don't have payed account ), but with my gear i should be close or even more then 5000dps so im doing something wrong, but don't know what.

I use IS, MF, IFF and spam wrath to proc on SF, then during eclipse i use SF during CD i recast MF and IS ( if needed IFF ) but that's just not enough.

#58 Erdluf

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 04:59 AM

WC 1.1.4 is using a 3.5 ppm formula for Omen of Clarity (based on untalented cast times). I recall a blue post during LK beta that seemed to fit that formula.

Other commenters (Wowwiki and Wowhead) have given proc rates of 6%. Graylo, in his regen post, said "about 2 per minute" based on looks at old logs. At 30-40 casts per minute, that is consistent with the 6% number.

From some recent Archavon WWS's of mine I see 33 OoC procs from these cast counts:

Wrath 268
SF 166
Instants (MF, IS, FoN, Sfl) 198

that is a proc rate in the 5-6% range. The WC formula would predict about 80 OoC procs from those casts.

#59 Adoriele

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 11:32 PM

WC 1.1.4 is using a 3.5 ppm formula for Omen of Clarity (based on untalented cast times). I recall a blue post during LK beta that seemed to fit that formula.

Other commenters (Wowwiki and Wowhead) have given proc rates of 6%. Graylo, in his regen post, said "about 2 per minute" based on looks at old logs. At 30-40 casts per minute, that is consistent with the 6% number.

From some recent Archavon WWS's of mine I see 33 OoC procs from these cast counts:

Wrath 268
SF 166
Instants (MF, IS, FoN, Sfl) 198

that is a proc rate in the 5-6% range. The WC formula would predict about 80 OoC procs from those casts.


Hmm. OoC used to be a 6%, with an internal cooldown if I remember right. At some point in Beta, it was changed to PPM for feral forms (for sure), and I assumed that it was changed for spells as well. I'm gonna leave PPM in for the next release, for the simple fact that it's today, but I'll check out my WWS and see which it seems to correspond to for me.

And with that:

WrathCalcsv1.2:

- Eclipse rotations are now fully modeled, including all permutations of DoTs. Finally.
- Fixed Kug's discovery with Solar Eclipse rotations (was off by one cell, stupid copy/paste)
- Includes new control for Moonfire during Eclipse. Setting this to single-refresh assumes a refresh at the end of Eclipse. Setting it to 100% uptime (which is a misnomer) will refresh Moonfire just before the ICD finishes as well. Setting it to single refresh will assume you have no MF up during Eclipse, but will have it up during the force-proc phase if you're aiming for Solar eclipses (among other, similar assumptions). Insect Swarm is always treated as two casts if enabled (and has, again, similar assumptions).
- Included support for Force of Nature and Starfall. Everyone's DPS should go up accordingly. Accordingly, modeled brambles as well.
- Added relevant 3.1 changes, including: 1% attribute buff per rank from iMotW, previously mentioned Spirit regen/Intensity changed (fixed a bug in this), and the new Starfall glyph.

v1.2 will be attached within a few minutes of this post.

#60 Ashaera

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 12:20 AM

Treants modeling seems very far from reality. With my settings (current armory gear, assuming all raid buffs) I get these numbers:
Brambles - 25906.84
No Brambles - 22527.69

The 1.15 factor is fine, the assumed damage for a cast is very far from any other scenarion than attacking a target dummy though. Are you considering the raidbuffs they will allways benefit from?
- Reduced armor.
- 10% AP
- 5% melee crit
- 3% crit
- 20% melee haste
- Str+Agi totem
Even before adding the buffs that requires some efford the assumed damage number is very far from reality.

------
I like the changes to the cycle, allthough I would not recommend people to blindly trust that clipping MF is better. The 1 moonfire pr rotation is coded to cast that MF at just about the worst time possible, normally the alternative to double MF with clipping will provide a pretty decent MF uptime during eclipse.


But for what its worth wrathcalc is still a very good tool if you understand how to use it - keep up the good work!




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