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In-Depth Arms DPS Discussion


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#21 Keyzersoze

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 04:46 PM

1 question, can you keep up on AOE? fury has WW, arms has.. well bladestorm? and SS, but they have a large CD.. and so far AOE'ing mages/hunters/DKs/TGwar blows everything off the table. Overall damage is so dependet on thrash now (not that overall damage really counts, but you know - for the epeen) that I find it hard to compete as arms. but again might just have been my gear at the time!


Now maybe it is just me, but I couldn't give 2 coppers on trash damage. When comparing my DPS to our raids or other warriors I always look at bosses. That is where the status, epeen, and phat lewts come from imo.

#22 TigerG

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 05:03 PM

Arms is probably the best aoe/trash killer in the game solely due to bladestorm. If you pop trinkets and Sweeping Strikes before hand, I can usually do around 8-10k dps within those 7 seconds of bladestorm on trash mobs. Arms is much better than Fury when it comes to AOE, but is lacking in single target dps because of it. This is part of the reason why there aren't many WWS of Arms on the Patchwerk fight, it's just a single target Boss fight with no additional damage and no adds. Arms dps on other bosses is dependent on the strat for that individual boss.

#23 LodeRunner

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 05:19 PM

Arms is probably the best aoe/trash killer in the game solely due to bladestorm. If you pop trinkets and Sweeping Strikes before hand, I can usually do around 8-10k dps within those 7 seconds of bladestorm on trash mobs. Arms is much better than Fury when it comes to AOE, but is lacking in single target dps because of it.


I'm not convinced of this at all. Bladestorm has an abominably long cooldown, and Fury's Whirlwind hits almost twice as hard; my napkin math says a TG Whirlwind does 195% of a regular Whirlwind. Also, I don't believe the Whirlwind Glyph works for Bladestorm, so a Fury Warrior's Whirlwind is a massive amount of damage. You could be entirely right, but if you are I don't think it's by the margins you believe it to be. A Bladestorm will set an Arms Warrior far ahead on the meters for trash. However, while it's cooling down, Fury will catch up with double damage whirlwinds and Cleave spam which we can do because our offhands still generate rage. This is offset by how fast you pull, pack size, and how much the Arms Warrior can mash Sweeping Strikes of course.

edit- Also Unholy DKs are the best trash killers in the game.
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#24 TigerG

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 05:41 PM

You may be right about Unholy DKs, because I personally have not seen that many geared or good DKs in action to properly review them myself.

I will test the Whirlwind Glyph with Bladestorm later today, because I was under the impression that the two did work together. Anyway, though Bladestorm does have an abyssmal cooldown, I can usually use it every other trash pull in a raid. However, my gripe with regular whirlwinds is that by the time you use it a second or third time, at least half the mob will be dead so it won't be utilizing its full potential, while bladestorm can do all its damage within 6 seconds. Though you do have a point, I did not mean to come across that Arms wiped the floor with fury in terms of AOE.

#25 Oliria

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 05:44 PM

Dno about your naxxgroups, but we manage to pull atleast 5-6 groups during a bladestorm CD.. most of the time we pull multiple groups at a time, and never stops pulling.. if the pack is about to die, a tank runs forward pulling another..

and then ofc rend is useless on thrash making OP not very good. Sudden death seems bad aswell!

but again some ppl think thrash doesn't matter, imo it does matter alot- the difference between clearing naxx in 1 night, and not doing so lies with the thrash!

#26 Typhon

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 05:53 PM

I think with Arms vs Fury Whirlwind comparisons you're trying to compare apples and oranges slightly. Given the high priority of Overpower in an Arms PVE cycle, why bother with switching to Beserker Stance, whirlwinding and then swapping back to Battle Stance, with all the associated delays therein?

Given Tankietka's cycle above (with added imp. slam goodness), Whirlwind is pretty irrelevant.

Which raises a related (slightly noobish perhaps) question: what are the best Glyphs for Arms PVE DPS? The Sweeping Strikes Rage generation one is obvious. But apart from that? I've noticed Warrior Glyph availability seems to be aimed mainly for Fury and Protection trees.

#27 Redmoon

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:00 PM

Well, i have not tried fury yet; however, i love arms dps. I average 2400 on single target bosses(assuming i have wf and full buffs). Meanwhile I murder trash. I have not lost dps meters in a 10 man raid. As far as 5 mans go, I average 2100 give or take. Id like to hear what other warriors are pushing as dps.
As far as rotation, its simply a priority list based on how much rage, percent of enemy life, and how long on cool downs. I personally believe, MS above everything else. Any thoughts...

#28 TigerG

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:06 PM

n other words - Arms warrior should not in my opinion stick to one predefined rotation without further thinking, rather decide on the fly what to use and in what order. Of course some general rules or "precalculated" priority lists for some situations (ie use Execute before Slam if under/above x rage) can be used, but sticking mindlessly to one is not good.
...

Due to the above I think there won't be one rotation for all Arms warriors. Rather guidelines for given gear level, some general priority lists, some rage sweet points etc.


With a pull with 4+ mobs, whirlwind will beat overpower any day.

Anyway, Glyph of execute is an obvious glyph for arms warriors. I personally chose the Whirlwind glyph and Rend glyph after that (I usually pop SS right before bladestorm, so I end up getting rage from my autoattacks anyway). However, if whirlwind glyph doesn't work with bladestorm, I would have to re-think which glyph to take.

#29 LodeRunner

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:23 PM

I think with Arms vs Fury Whirlwind comparisons you're trying to compare apples and oranges slightly. Given the high priority of Overpower in an Arms PVE cycle, why bother with switching to Beserker Stance, whirlwinding and then swapping back to Battle Stance, with all the associated delays therein?

Given Tankietka's cycle above (with added imp. slam goodness), Whirlwind is pretty irrelevant.

Which raises a related (slightly noobish perhaps) question: what are the best Glyphs for Arms PVE DPS? The Sweeping Strikes Rage generation one is obvious. But apart from that? I've noticed Warrior Glyph availability seems to be aimed mainly for Fury and Protection trees.



The point about Whirlwind is for trash which is, admittedly, a bit of a sidetrack. You should never be switching stances during boss encounters for Overpowers or Whirlwinds regardless of your spec.

As far as Glyphs I would have thought the obvious choices were Mortal Strike, Execute, and Rend. Sweeping Strikes has almost no use on bosses. You're not going to get parried so Overpower has no use. The Rend Glyph, I thought, would free up a little global cooldown time so you don't have to babysit the bleed refresh so constantly. Am I off base?
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#30 Xplicit

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:23 PM

I think with Arms vs Fury Whirlwind comparisons you're trying to compare apples and oranges slightly. Given the high priority of Overpower in an Arms PVE cycle, why bother with switching to Beserker Stance, whirlwinding and then swapping back to Battle Stance, with all the associated delays therein?

Given Tankietka's cycle above (with added imp. slam goodness), Whirlwind is pretty irrelevant.

Which raises a related (slightly noobish perhaps) question: what are the best Glyphs for Arms PVE DPS? The Sweeping Strikes Rage generation one is obvious. But apart from that? I've noticed Warrior Glyph availability seems to be aimed mainly for Fury and Protection trees.


I currently use Glyph of Mortal Strike (10% more damage, reduces healing debuff), Glyph of Execute, and Glyph of Sweeping Strikes.

#31 nfw

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:25 PM

I don't have the gear to test it out myself, is dual wield arms still a valid build, or was that simply a glitch in the matrix, so to speak?

#32 TigerG

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:34 PM

The point about Whirlwind is for trash which is, admittedly, a bit of a sidetrack. You should never be switching stances during boss encounters for Overpowers or Whirlwinds regardless of your spec.

As far as Glyphs I would have thought the obvious choices were Mortal Strike, Execute, and Rend. Sweeping Strikes has almost no use on bosses. You're not going to get parried so Overpower has no use. The Rend Glyph, I thought, would free up a little global cooldown time so you don't have to babysit the bleed refresh so constantly. Am I off base?


Yeah, you're right, those are the ideal PVE DPS glyphs. I forgot about MS since I pvp often and I don't have it in me to lose the healing debuff.

I don't have the gear to test it out myself, is dual wield arms still a valid build, or was that simply a glitch in the matrix, so to speak?


It's a really hard spec to gear and spec for. You would have to forego all rend damage (weapons too fast for it any good), and obviously Mortal Strike damage would be gimped. If you get Wrecking Crew/Bladestorm, you would need to make up the hit% loss with gear. Your AOE damage would be miniscule. All your damage would be dependent upon a random proc off Sudden Death, so there would be no reliable damage.

I would say it would not be a viable spec.

#33 Xplicit

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:39 PM

The point about Whirlwind is for trash which is, admittedly, a bit of a sidetrack. You should never be switching stances during boss encounters for Overpowers or Whirlwinds regardless of your spec.

As far as Glyphs I would have thought the obvious choices were Mortal Strike, Execute, and Rend. Sweeping Strikes has almost no use on bosses. You're not going to get parried so Overpower has no use. The Rend Glyph, I thought, would free up a little global cooldown time so you don't have to babysit the bleed refresh so constantly. Am I off base?


To be honest, the Rend glyph is better, but I think both the Rend and Sweeping Strikes glyphs aren't worthy of a major glyph slot.

#34 vytautas

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 07:02 PM

As far as Glyphs I would have thought the obvious choices were Mortal Strike, Execute, and Rend.


Definately, I used Sweeping Strikes + Execute to level but as soon as an inscriptor got MS I jumped on that over SS and picked up Rend at 80.


Slightly disappointed with my DPS atm, only pulling 3.2kish on Patchwerk (25th Nov, 26th Nov). Obvious problem number one is I'm dying at above 10% on both kills, one was completely my fault I let my HP hit max without dipping into the goo, the other one atleast one OT died and being a warrior suffering from the joy of plate, more Stam yay, I was first DPS on the chopping block. I don't think I'm doing completely horribly, those numbers would be slightly higher if I'd survived to the end of the fight but wondering if there are any mind numbing mistakes people can see? Hoping for a decent increase this coming reset as I got a few upgrades after the first day PW kill, > .


Is dancing to Berserker viable even to put Recklessness on CD for 3 crit executes <20% or to get Deep Wounds ticking nicely with gauranteed Bladestorm crits at the begining of a fight?

#35 Yabanjin

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 07:05 PM

Before I started doing 25 mans in WOTLK I decided I'd switch to Arms, on my quest to find a "rotation" I found the following: It's a little different than what Furrymaker & Tankietka mentioned.

I follow these rules:

1. Rend, refresh when it's about to fade.
2. Slam spam when <45 rage.
3. >45 rage, MS.
4. Overpower proc, do that.
5. Execute proc, do that.
6. Bladestorm on every CD.

The reason behind #3 is that MS is less dmg vs the rage needed to use it compared to slam.

It seems to work well for me. I got a few WWS for comparison purpose, 3.8K Patchwerk 4.7K Loatheb

Also, as Arms with Overpower being in our "rotation", shouldn't having the least amount of Expertise possible be best ? Has anyone done the math on that ?

#36 Bia

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:10 PM

I do what Yabanjin has listed instinctively, and it has worked rather well for me. The only difference is in execute range I try to use overpower, mortal strike, or slam as a white hit lands and the execute following right after, just before the next white hits, so i do not miss a gcd.

I use the whirlwind glyph, and i can confirm it does indeed work with bladestorm. MSBT tells me how many targets i'm hitting next to the damage, and it accurately shows the damage with 5 hits in mob groups larger than 4.

Arms seems to have an unfavorable public opinion on its dps competitiveness, but I top the meters in a very competitive guild. I attribute successful arms dps to perfect global cooldown usage. There should never be a time in which your gcd is waiting for your next white hit due to using skills at an inopportune moment, or due to not gearing correctly and having a swing miss or dodge.

I haven't done any math, but as counter-intuitive as it may seem to aim for the expertise soft cap (in T7+ gear levels) because it will lower Overpower usage, the potential dps loses from early bladestorm dodges (where the 5 second overpower buff may fade before out of bladestorm) and melee swing dodges are far to great.

the person that used to collect and put up our meters quit recently, so i'll post up some WWS as soon as I get them.

#37 TigerG

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:20 PM

Alright, I just tested it. Glyph of Whirlwind DOES work with bladestorm.

#38 Healranktwo

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 04:07 AM

i'm pretty sure a dodged MS/slam/execute is wasted DPS, since you have to spend an extra GCD to OP. I do think we suffer the least for getting a dodge compared to every other melee class. Expertise is definately not going to lower our DPS though. 1 Slam + 1 Slam > 1 missed Slam + 1 OP

I'm also curious, anyone working on a spreadsheet? Would love to see one :D

#39 Annihilus

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:18 AM

This is exactly the topic I was looking for. There is a lot of discussion over the rotation, but what about stats? What is the hit cap for an Arm's warrior and is that cap different than Fury? I would assume so because there is no -hit penaltly in Arms. Another poster mentioned minimize your Expertise, which totally makes sense because of Overpower. What is the Expertise cap? Is it just a mix of Hit, Strength, and Crit then? What about Haste? It almost seems like if you went Axe spec that Crit/Agility would be a good stat and if you go Swords, then Haste for the SS proc.

Talents

Sudden Death: I've seen a lot of talk about this being good / bad. Is it wise to dump your rage like that early in a boss encounter? I've never raided as Arms, just Prot, so I'm not sure of the rage generation.

Wrecking Crew and Trauma: It sounds like these apply to the entire raid. If this is true, it sounds like having an Arms warrior in the raid has great utility. Also regarding Wrecking Crew, depending on how you place your talent points you can pick-up Death Wish if you only put 4/5 into Wrecking Crew. I'm not sure what the DPS difference is between the two, but at a glance it seems that Death Wish would be more useful in an encounter with an Enrage timer.

#40 hellord

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:16 PM

Talents
I'm pretty sure Deatwish and Wrecking Crew don't stack (at least last time I tried was last build on PTR before expansion came out). So no, a xx/21 build isnt viable if you plan to replace Bladestorm.

Mechanics
Rotation is not really a rotation as many noticed, but rather a "use on opportunity" style.
If you have both Execute and Overpower up always prioritize exe, since after it you'll still have 10 rage spare, and I found more worth to use exe AFTER Mortal Strike but just if MS was up.

During short fights like trash pulls you can either swap to bers stance or stand in battle rending more than a target and then using BS/TC (thunderclap does good damage if there are 5+ mobs since there is not anymore a target limit), isnt worth putting points in imp TC anyway.

The priority list is more related to what you do have on cd. Slam is simply a filler for when you have rage and nothing procced. MS>Execute>Op>Rend>Slam and i try to refresh rend after an Exe or when MS is on cd.
A swing timer can be helpful to check WHEN you'll be getting next hit (=next rage income), especially when you have to choose between MS and Exe if both are up.

I don't agree that expertise isn't necessary cause I wouldn't trade a miss on execute/MS nor slam or white damage to get an overpower since it's still a reduction in dps and a waste of gcd.

Stats
As stats I found hit/expertise as close to cap as possible then stack Crit especialy if you wear an axe.
Strenght and ArP are close in values, but str scales linearly while ArP still have small increasing returns.

Haste is the only way to slightly increase SD procs. Not much overall but a faster rage generation can help filling the gcds, and it is multiplied by BF bonus and wf/bl so its value in raid is a bit higher than unbuffed.
Also if you are able to use every gcd you maximize your hit ratio and have more chances to proc sudden death.

Gear
Itemization is still for entry level raids, so few stats and high values, too much stamina and few sockets. The ilvl is not always the thing to consider.
Leather still has some very good upgrades compared to plate due to this spreading of stats (hit, crit, haste, arp, agi, pure ap and less stamina), attt gives some more ap on plate, but in therms of raw dps this favour furys over arms (or dualwielders in general).
I think the more the itemization grows the bigger will be the gap that will make us prefer leather over plate, actually is not a big gap anyway.

Conclusions
Overall Fury does more damage than Arms generally, but arms can do insane damage if you get good luck: chain exe+op procs, lucky crits etc.
RNG plays an important role since for the same fight i noticed a difference of more then 10% damage between 2 identical attempts.

Arms probably need more procs with internal cooldow (maybe 30% chance on any bleed damage and less reduction from unrelenting assault, or a 15% chance for SD) since latest changes to TG yellow penalty definetly put fury up by a quite noticeable margin.

Warriors in general are doing very good dps, sometimes hunters and rogues can come close, but ranged can only beat you on situational fights where you have to abandon melee spots.
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