Jump to content


Photo

Dots and you: The Affliction Warlock Thread


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1633 replies to this topic

#1621 turturin

turturin

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 267 posts

Posted 26 June 2010 - 06:12 AM

I think you all are being overly conservative with the charges you are allowing for. I regularly take 10 and sometimes up to 12 stacks of unchained on heroic, even when I do the fight as affliction. As long as the people with unchained stagger the debuff drops there really isn't a problem.

Probably some of the high dps you're seeing is AoE dmg on the frost tombs during her air phases. I strongly suspect that in at least some of those parses they encouraged extra iceblocking by raid members during air phases to get more targets and pad meters for dps records.

#1622 Luninariel

Luninariel

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 05 July 2010 - 04:45 PM

Forgive me if there's something I am not seeing as to reasoning but since Shadow Embrace stacks up to 3 times, wouldn't it be better to Shadowbolt twice then haunt and go about the rotation as normal since that would equal out to 15% on Corruption and not 10% from just 1 shadowbolt and 1 haunt?

Edit: Nevermind I read the tooltip wrong since it's just 5% damage extra the dots will rescale with it innately on refresh won't they?

#1623 matornot

matornot

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 06 July 2010 - 08:02 PM

Forgive me if there's something I am not seeing as to reasoning but since Shadow Embrace stacks up to 3 times, wouldn't it be better to Shadowbolt twice then haunt and go about the rotation as normal since that would equal out to 15% on Corruption and not 10% from just 1 shadowbolt and 1 haunt?

Edit: Nevermind I read the tooltip wrong since it's just 5% damage extra the dots will rescale with it innately on refresh won't they?


It stacks 3 times to a total of 15%, but since it's an "extra damage received" debuff on the target, it will update on the fly similar to the Haunt debuff.

#1624 Joecode

Joecode

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 06 July 2010 - 10:28 PM

Forgive me if there's something I am not seeing as to reasoning but since Shadow Embrace stacks up to 3 times, wouldn't it be better to Shadowbolt twice then haunt and go about the rotation as normal since that would equal out to 15% on Corruption and not 10% from just 1 shadowbolt and 1 haunt?

I didn't feel from your edit comment that you left with a full understanding of the cast order.
We don't lead out with Shadow Bolt for it's Shadow Embrace effect. Shadow Bolt is first cast for the talent Improved Shadow Bolt's +5% critical strike chance effect. Corruption will not benefit from this effect unless the debuff is on your target prior to casting Corruption. This effect does not stack so only one Shadow Bolt is necessary. Following up with Haunt before the higher damaging Corruption is necessary due to Shadow Bolt's travel time before it hits your target and becomes active.
Shadow Embrace increases your shadow periodic damage +5% for up to three stacks and is effective immediately on any active DoTs regardless of casting order.

#1625 Guest_alhill_*

Guest_alhill_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 July 2010 - 04:13 PM

I've always believed that the "start with SB" cast order is one of those situation where theory doesn't always jive with reality. Many fights require the raid to run into on the pull. In such cases, the optimal cast order is to throw up your instant cast dots while moving into position.

#1626 Joecode

Joecode

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 07 July 2010 - 07:30 PM

I've always believed that the "start with SB" cast order is one of those situation where theory doesn't always jive with reality. Many fights require the raid to run into on the pull. In such cases, the optimal cast order is to throw up your instant cast dots while moving into position.

I wholeheartedly agree, but an understanding of the theory and mechanics will inform a fresh warlock that even though he has applied his instant cast DoTs while running in, he will have to reapply Corruption (by way of Corruption and not Haunt) after the Improved Shadow Bolt debuff is active on the target in order to maximize his DPS. Potions, trinkets, and Tier set bonuses that provide an increase to your chance for a critical strike also warrant a fresh Corruption cast when used in unison. Luninariel, take note that Haunt refreshes Corruption's timer, but not its chance to critically hit or any percentage damage increases applied when it was cast. That is why Corruption itself is cast whenever your chance to critically strike is maximized or on a significant percentage damage increase such as Death's Embrace at 35%.

#1627 Berthold

Berthold

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 287 posts

Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:50 AM

Hi all,

during my last tries on prof 25hc I wondered whether it makes sense to cast Curse of Agony *only* while moving.

There are a lot of reasons to move around and besides refreshing Life Tap there is not much to do while moving. Refreshing CoA before it has fallen off is a stupid thing to do. So assuming we "kick" CoA out of our rotation when standing still we gain some more SBolts standing still and have the opportunity to cast CoA when we have to move. This is especially helpful if the boss is <25% because there are less interruptions for channeling drainsoul, making it easier to have a high haunt/UA uptime without loosing too much DS ticks. The only drawbacks, I could see are that
a) we might lose a gcd when standing still for refreshing LT (because we did not refresh while moving)
B) there is not much time to decide while moving whether LT or CoA should be cast->more time spent not casting
c) moving out of voidzones et al. might take less than a gcd, so we might loose some sbolts.
from my first few tests and video analysis I think the benefits are bigger than the drawbacks, but I would be interested to hear your opinion on that.

Because we all like numbers, I played around with simcraft using my toon [1]:
100k iterations,patchwork,20% varying time:

Standard rotation: 12040 dps
Standard rotation omitting CoA below 25%: 12035 dps

Standard rotation (helter skelter): 9513 dps
Standard rotation only cast CoA while moving (helter skelter): 9619 dps

As we can see, casting no CoA below 25% yields no theoretical loss and makes the rotation easier.
We also see that in movement intense fights casting CoA only while moving is a dps gain.

So, all in all, it seems as if omitting CoA in a standstill rotation is worthwhile. Comments?



1:
#!./simc 

warlock=Fael
origin="http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madmortem&n=Fael"
level=80
race=human
use_pre_potion=-1
professions=enchanting=450/tailoring=450
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=9&tal=235000202102351025351033115100000000000000000000000000055000005000000000000000000
glyphs=quick_decay/unending_breath/drain_soul/haunt/souls/life_tap
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/spell_stone
actions+=/fel_armor
actions+=/summon_pet,felhunter
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/dark_pact,buff_refresh=1
actions+=/wild_magic_potion,bloodlust=1
actions+=/haunt
actions+=/corruption
actions+=/curse_of_agony
actions+=/unstable_affliction
actions+=/drain_soul,health_percentage<=25,interrupt=1
actions+=/shadow_bolt
actions+=/dark_pact,mana_percentage<=20,buff_refresh=1,moving=1
actions+=/dark_pact
head=sanctified_dark_coven_hood,stats=287armor_100crit_92haste_123int_162sp_123sta,gems=chaotic_skyflare_10spi_12sp_9sp,enchant=30sp_20crit
neck=bone_sentinels_amulet,heroic=1,stats=60haste_78int_68spi_110sp_78sta,gems=23sp
shoulders=sanctified_dark_coven_shoulderpads,stats=265armor_80crit_72haste_92int_132sp_92sta,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=24sp_15crit
chest=sanctified_dark_coven_robe,stats=354armor_108crit_92haste_123int_171sp_123sta,gems=23sp_10haste_12sp_7sp,enchant=10str_10agi_10sta_10int_10spi
waist=circle_of_ossus,stats=199armor_80haste_92int_64spi_122sp_92sta,gems=10spi_12sp_23sp_23sp_7sp
legs=sanctified_dark_coven_leggings,stats=309armor_108crit_92hit_123int_171sp_123sta,gems=10spi_12sp_10haste_12sp_7sp,enchant=50sp_20spi
feet=sandals_of_consecration,stats=243armor_64crit_92int_80spi_122sp_92sta,gems=10haste_12sp_10haste_12sp_7sp,enchant=15sta
wrists=the_ladys_brittle_bracers,stats=155armor_65crit_45hit_69int_97sp_69sta,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=30sp
hands=gunship_captains_mittens,heroic=1,stats=231armor_90haste_74hit_103int_140sp_103sta,gems=10spi_12sp_23sp_7sp,enchant=28sp
finger1=valanars_other_signet_ring,stats=69haste_38hit_69int_97sp_69sta,gems=23sp,enchant=23sp
finger2=ashen_band_of_endless_destruction,stats=64haste_51hit_73int_101sp_73sta,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=23sp,equip=onspellcasthit_285sp_10%_10dur_60cd
trinket1=dislodged_foreign_object,heroic=1,stats=170haste,equip=onspellcast_121sp_10stack_10%_20dur_45cd_2tick
trinket2=muradins_spyglass,stats=131crit,equip=onspelldamage_18sp_10stack_10dur
back=greatcloak_of_the_turned_champion,stats=177armor_52haste_69int_60spi_97sp_69sta,gems=23sp,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=nibelung,heroic=1,stats=115int_837sp_103sta,gems=23sp_10spi_12sp_10haste_12sp_9sp,enchant=81sp,weapon=staff_2.10speed_345.82000732421875min_619.820068359375max
ranged=rod_of_imprisoned_souls,heroic=1,stats=31crit_24haste_29int_50sp_40sta


#1628 Callandor

Callandor

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:05 PM

Maths to show that throwing up Unstable Affliction on a useless target (think Shambling Horror and Drudge Ghouls, where your damage to them doesn't matter) is not worth it to increase your damage on the main nuke target (in this case Lich King).

This is using the numbers from my SimCraft profile (Profiler - Wowhead) over a 300 second fight with 10,000 iterations and assumes you only put up Unstable Affliction as priority over Shadow Bolt on the nuke target, numbers will be different (even worse) if you prio it over any other spell.

Essentially you are losing Shadow Bolts for a % boost in damage to everything else except Corruption, with no gain in damage done by the UA ticks themselves.

T-10 bonus has an uptime of 44%, so refreshing an extra UA increases uptime to 0.44 of the remaining 66% (since they can overlap), bringing T-10 to a new uptime of 73.04%. This is an increase in uptime by 29.04%, i.e. and increase in damage of every spell except corruption by 2.904%. My DPS minus the effect Corruption has on it is 12561 - 0.242*12561 = 12561 - 3040 = 9521. Therefore the gain in DPS ignoring loss of time casting Shadow Bolts is 0.02904*9521 = 276 DPS

The actual loss of DPS from not casting Shadow Bolts can be calculated by comparing the time lost casting UA when you could have been casting SB, multiplied by the average damage SB hits for. Note: I'll double check the cast times when I can for clarity

Roughly the cast time ratio of UA to SB is 2/3 So for every UA you cast you are losing 2/3 damage of an average Shadow Bolt i.e. 2/3*11271 = 7514. Since the duration of UA is 15 seconds and the cast time is roughly 1.2 seconds you lose 7514 damage every 16.2 secs (perfect uptime) i.e. 7514/16.2 = 464 DPS

Therefore the cost of losing those extra Shadow Bolts far outweighs the gain in damage from increase uptime of T-10 bonus. Any extra haste factors or values will only excacerbate these figures since UA cast time will be reduced by less than SB cast time as they both approach 1 second, increasing the value of the ratio of UA:SB, thus increasing the damage lost. Sorry to all those padding meters on Lich King, no excuse now! :P

#1629 yourCuteMotoko

yourCuteMotoko

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 13 July 2010 - 05:32 PM

Actually its worthy casting UA on mobs that last for the whole duration of the dot, simply because UA has far greater DPC than a SB, without considering the increased 4p t10 uptime.

I guess the "coa cast only on the move test" was messed up because in the simcraft during a helter skelter fight there are adds that die faster than coa duration, so its a dps loss, like for example a valithria scenario.

EDIT: I should have specified Shambling Horrors as they wont die before several necrotic plague applications

#1630 Callandor

Callandor

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:45 PM

Actually its worthy casting UA on mobs that last for the whole duration of the dot, simply because UA has far greater DPC than a SB, without considering the increased 4p t10 uptime

I guess the "coa cast only on the move test" was messed up bcos in the simcraft during a helter skelter fight there are adds that die faster than coa duration, so its a dps loss, like for example a valithria scenario


My post is directed at situations where the damage done by UA mean nothing itself, e.g. adds that will get cleaved down by the rest of your raid, or Shambling Horrors that die from Necrotic Plague.

#1631 Berthold

Berthold

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 287 posts

Posted 16 July 2010 - 10:05 AM

I guess the "coa cast only on the move test" was messed up because in the simcraft during a helter skelter fight there are adds that die faster than coa duration, so its a dps loss, like for example a valithria scenario.

Thanks for your reply. To circumvent the issues with the helter skelter fight, I redid the simulations using several different movement fights, i.e., different raidevents.
Every {10,15,20,25,30} seconds the player has to move for {0, 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5) seconds.
After 5 x 11 x 50k iterations here is the result:
Posted Image
Explanation: The graph consists of 5 subgraphs with increasing time between the movements (see x-Axis labels). At each spike the movement length is 0 seconds and then gets longer, thus resulting in a descending slope.

Interpretation: First of all, both rotations (standard and CoA_only_while_moving) are often very close together.
We also see that in fights with short to no movement (0, 0.5, 1 seconds) the standard rotation is superior. This should be due to a higher CoA uptime.
But as soon as the movement is in the magnitude of a gcd, the other rotation is always a little bit better. This effect is even stronger if the movement events are longer than 20/25 seconds apart. Taking a look at the length of CoA - 24 seconds - it becomes obvious that in this case, CoA just dropped off and we can reapply it while moving around, thereby wasting no gcd at all.

All in all, we can see that for patchwerk fights, the standard rotation is the best choice, but for any fight with a little amount of movement it makes sense to only cast CoA while moving. Another benefit is that this makes the rotation a little bit easier, which leaves more mental capacity for dodging shadowtraps, etc.

p.s. This result is heavily influenced by the fact that CoA does not scale with haste and the simulated gear has ~1000 haste on it.
The turnover point for omitting CoA should be very different for a lower tier with less haste.

#1632 matornot

matornot

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 18 July 2010 - 03:56 PM

I've always believed that the "start with SB" cast order is one of those situation where theory doesn't always jive with reality. Many fights require the raid to run into on the pull. In such cases, the optimal cast order is to throw up your instant cast dots while moving into position.


The only end-game fights that this applies to are Marrowgar and Halion. You can stand still at the pull on LDW, Gunship, DBS, Rotface, Festergut, Prof, Princes, BQL, Valithria, Sindy, and *deep breath* LK.

But even so, you'll end up with more damage done if you open with the regular rotation and just insert a few seconds of running once you get to the instant casts: SB>Haunt>UA>[Start Running]>Corr>CoA>[Stop Running]>SB>SB...

Your toon runs at 7 yards per sec, or 7.5 with the run speed enchant (which you should have, unless you're an engineer, in which case this entire discussion is useless). If you're GCD capped, this means you can run 15 yards without altering your rotation, or over 22 yards if you throw in a LT/DP for good measure. On top of that, neither Marrowgar nor Halion require you to be in position immediately, just before the first Bone Spikes or Fiery Combustion. This means that you can run 2/3 of the way into position, continue rotation, and then move again when you need to re-cast Corr or get lucky with a Shadow Trance.

If you're still not convinced, just think of the raid's DPS gain from having your Improved Shadow Bolt's 5% crit on the target while you run in circles or whatever.

EDIT: Changed the values related to Tuskarr's Vitality run speed increase. The increase is 8% (I thought it was 15%).

#1633 Namnalia

Namnalia

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 61 posts

Posted 23 September 2010 - 11:22 AM

I tested several things concerning the buff/talent/specialisation situation in 4.0 on the public PTR. While the numbers may not be final yet, the way the buffs and specialisations work most probably are and will be the same for cataclysm.

Short version: Base damage seems to be lower for all spells, most coefficents seem to be the same. All of the percentual damage increases are multiplicative now (CoE, Potent Afflictions, Improved Corruption).


The tests:

Corruption:
naked (156 spell power from intellect), no talents, no specialisation:
Corruption ticks for 181.
same with Fel Armor (336 sp total) Corr ticks for 217.
so 180 sp yield exactly 180 more damage with no modifiers, the sp-coefficent still seems to be 1.0.
This means the base damage has changed and is now 6x155 = 930 for level 80.

Applying CoE increases ticks from 181 to 196 which is the expected 8% multiplicative increase.
Choosing affliction as specialisation gives +25% shadow damage and +13.04% more periodic shadow damage.
This results in Corr ticking for 256 (before: 181). This is an increase by 41.4% which is almost exactly what you
get from multiplying the 25% and 13.04% damage (-> 41,3%).
Appyling CoE again heightens the ticks to 276. This is an increase by 7.8%, so CoE is multiplicative to Shadow Mastery and Potent Afflictions

Choosing improved Corruption 3/3 increases the ticks from 256 to 283. This is an increase by 11.7% (talent text giving 12%). Applying CoE increases the damage ticks to 306 which is an increase by 8.1%. Conclusion: Improved Corruption is multiplicative to other modifiers.

Shadow Embrace: 1 stack (5% buff) increases ticks from 283 to 298 which is an increase by 5.3%. So, Shadow Embrace is multiplicative as well.

Haunt: Increases Periodic damage by 20%. Haunt followed by Corruption increase the ticks from 298 to 356 which is an 19.5% increase. So, Haunt is multiplicative to other increases as well.

The only thing left over are the base damage values for the other spells (as they are no longer in the tooltips and seem to have changed from 3.335).
CoA: ticks for 80,146,211 (4 times each) raw (no talents, 156 sp), 180 additional sp change this to 98, 164, 229 which is 18x12=196 addititional damage and results in the old sp coefficient of 1.2. This means that the base ticks without sp should have been 64, 130 and 195 and the base damage was 1556 (was 1760 in 3.335).

Shadow Bolt did around 750-775 with 156 sp while hitting for 885-915 with 336 sp. The old sp coefficient of 3.0/3.5 would explain this (average damage increase of 154) sufficiently. This would mean the base damage of sb would definitely be lower (about 620 to 645 instead of the old 690 to 770). The exact limits cannot be defined without a very huge sample size I'm currently unable to provide.

DS ticks for 145, increased to 222 with fel armor. This would mean the sp coefficient is an overwhelming 2.14 (instead of the old 2.0). The base damage would then be about 390 significantly less than the old 710. I wondered whether this is right and tried it with 3673 sp, resulting in ticks of 1645 damage. This is in line with the model (390 + 2.14x3673)/5 = 1650.

UA ticks for 327, 377 with Fel Armor. Without specialisation this would be 232 / 267, resulting in an coefficient of 1 and a base damage of 200x5 = 1000 (like the tooltip says at the moment).

Once more, while the numbers may not be final yet (and furthermore are not very important because the level 85 numbers will be different), the mechanic behind is what matters and there is no other way to find it out.

#1634 Callandor

Callandor

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:30 AM

I haven't seen any post about this... since Drain Soul is a channeled spell it is not updated mid-channel by factors such as damage modifiers, haste, crit or spellpower, you can take full advantage of this while obviously still following the usual priority list. Factors to take into account - 2 x trinkets, ICC rep ring, Heroism, Eradication, Tricks of the Trade, Power Infusion, Potion, T-10 4 set, Life Tap buff can be allowed to drop off mid-channel at no loss, or conversely a recast of Drain Soul is required as they proc.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users