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The Mage Equivalent: The Destruction Warlock


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#41 dragon12

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:28 PM

Actually the tooltip says shadow spells AND damage over time effects.

Molten Core

It seems safe to assume that immolate's DoT effect would proc it since the only other damage over time effects we have (other than the shadowflame dot -_-) are all shadow, and the second part of the tooltip wouldn't be worth mentioning.


Well, while I agree it's worded weirdly I think it's highly likely that the meaning is:
"Your Shadow (spells and damage over time effects)"
rather than
"Your (Shadow spells) and (DoT effects)"

#42 Flying V

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:31 PM

Well, while I agree it's worded weirdly I think it's highly likely that the meaning is:
"Your Shadow (spells and damage over time effects)"
rather than
"Your (Shadow spells) and (DoT effects)"

Ah that's probably the correct way of looking at it. I'll still try out heading to the target dummies in org later tonight and see if it's just bad wording after all.

#43 Faldrath

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 03:08 PM

Now that I'm confident enough that it works, here is my spec suggestion (I mentioned it in the pve spec discussion but that thread is too unfocused):

31/0/40 Shadow Mastery+Shadow and Flame

This is basically a shadow bolt-centered spec. Keep 3-4 DoTs up, spam Shadow Bolt as filler, use Imp as the pet.

Advantages:
- the hardest-hitting Shadow Bolts you can get now (SM+SnF);
- both hit and range talents;
- both aggro reduction talents (not an issue now, but it may well be in future raids);
- less reliant on pet DPS than Demo or deep Destro specs;
- scales very well with crit and haste;
- stronger dots than Demo or deep Destro specs.

Disadvantages:
- weaker DoTs than deep Affliction specs;
- weaker pet;
- some non-optimal points (you can't really avoid Improved Drain Soul, and the point I put in Shadowburn can go anywhere else, really);
- while Shadow Embrace is bugged, the points in it are worthless, since you should let an Affliction warlock get SE for it'll benefit him/her much more than it'll benefit you.

The Shadow Embrace problem actually suggests that while the bug persists, you should really change the affliction part of the spec and get some less-than-ideal talents which will, at least, be better than wasting 5 points in SE. So the current, non-ideal version of this spec would probably look something like this:

30+1/0+1/40+1 shadow spec

Soul Siphon is obviously useless for raids, but it's still useful for soloing. The last point can go to a lot of places: Eradication, Dark Pact, Shadowfury, Empowered Imp or Improved Imp.

Glyphs should be Shadow Bolt, Imp and then you choose between Immolate/Siphon Life/Curse of Agony/Corruption, depending on your personal preference.

What I like about this spec is mainly its simplicity. Keep 4 DoTs up (or 3 if you end up casting CoE/CoR), set your imp loose and spam shadow bolts. Since your imp isn't a big part of your DPS, in fights where it'd be tough to keep it up you can just keep it phased and still do decent DPS.

Right now it obviously doesn't perform as well as deep Affliction or even deep Demo. But I suspect that we're currently living in a situation very similar to the beginning of BC, when lots of warlock specs were competitive - but as new content and gear came out, it was clear that shadow bolt scaled much better than either DoTs or pets, and then Destruction easily came out on top. Of course, Blizzard seems to be aware of the issue and apparently fixed a lot of the scaling issues (especially with DoTs, but not so much with pets), but I still think that Destruction will eventually scale better. And if the choice is going deep Destruction with annoying rotations and talents (I really hate Fire and Brimstone), or a demo/destro hybrid that emphasizes your imp (which still can easily die and won't scale as well as your own spells) or this build I'm suggesting, the latter may come out on top (or near it, at least).

This is the 25-man Patch WWS I have, using an inferior version of the spec I'm proposing (still wasting Shadow Embrace, and with points in Soul Leech), on a non-optimal raid (no moonkin, ele shaman or demonic pact) and with a non-optimal player (me, still mostly in Sunwell gear and playing with 500ms latency). And yet it still didn't lag too much behind the affliction warlock.

I think this spec holds promise, and it would be good to get more feedback from better-geared and/or less laggy players. Comments? Criticisms? Suggestions?

#44 Zephro

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 03:11 PM

The Soul Siphon points won't be wasted if you use Drain Soul as your filler below 25%.

#45 Faldrath

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 03:14 PM

Hm, good point. I'd have to actually test it to see which is better sub-25%, Drain Soul or Shadow Bolt (my SBs averaged 4323 damage in that WWS).

#46 krilz

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 04:27 PM

Hm, good point. I'd have to actually test it to see which is better sub-25%, Drain Soul or Shadow Bolt (my SBs averaged 4323 damage in that WWS).

I think Drain Soul will probably outperform it but I think it depends on your crit % mostly. If you can get crits off more often than SB by all means use it since it gets Imp. SB and a lot more damage but Drain Soul ticks will probably have a higher average than your normal SB hits (especially with more warlocks).

#47 Necrostar

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 04:54 PM

I was actually looking at either scenario as a build w/ much better scaling than the deep affliction build. Gear that is loaded w/ haste & crit will benefit a more nuke oriented build. I was looking at either what you posted (30/0/40+1) or (0/30/40+1).

I noticed you mentioned casting 4 dots so I'm assuming you mean Corrupt / CoA / Immo / SL , but I had envisioned using just Corrupt. Since there is so much damage invested in the nuke I figured it could be a dps loss by trying to keep uptime on the other 3. Corruption seems to be the more important since it can offer you Nightfall procs , is part of the 2pc T7 bonus & you have 2 talents in particular that boosts its DPS. I would probably skip imp CoA & just drop CoD to free up cast time. Either that or go 2/2 Frailty & be the CoR bitch ;)

#48 Faldrath

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 05:44 PM

Yeah, I suspect that keeping DoTs up will largely depend on your gear. As you stack more crit/haste you'll probably get to the level where you can drop a DoT or two (you probably can drop Siphon Life now, but it's always been a little favorite of mine - I like the extra survivability). I am not good with numbers so I can't really do the math, but at least this is my impression. I did use CoD on that Patchwerk WWS I linked, and I think that CoA would have been 5-7k more damage from my napkin math. They never really did fix the shadow mastery bug with CoD, did they?

#49 virginio16

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 05:55 PM

Hi all.
I have one little doubt.
Are you considering in your rotations Shadowburn?, with a large cuantity of shards for a boss figth would be a boost to any ones dps.
Whats your opinion about shadowburn?
Pardon my english. Cya in game.

#50 Seir

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 07:14 PM

Hi all.
I have one little doubt.
Are you considering in your rotations Shadowburn?, with a large cuantity of shards for a boss figth would be a boost to any ones dps.
Whats your opinion about shadowburn?
Pardon my english. Cya in game.


It doesn't scale well enough to use as part of a regular rotation, I don't take shadowburn anymore because of better earlier talents but when i did in BC I only used it on high movement fights when forced to move and only if I knew we'd one-shot and I'd be able to restock my shards soon after.

#51 Nnayr

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 09:53 PM

Wasting a GCD on shadowburn wouldn't be worth it. As Seir said above they really haven't fixed scaling issues with shadowburn.. ever.

I have been using 0/13/58 for a while now and it seems to be very powerful. But i have thought to switch 0/41/30 being that chaosbolt only equates to about 11% of my damage each fight. Maybe even 0/31/40.

#52 EnderW

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:03 AM

The only reason I went SF spec was because of the malygos fight. It works great with Deathgrip also SF goes well in other fights.
You can go mana feed too, It all depends on what fights you do. I just like the ability to clutch interrupt, stun and deal shadow damage hoping for MC to proc in aoe. I saw all the specs in this and I really do dislike Chaos Bolt, Conflag, backdraft, afflic.

Im looking forward for some input from some Chaos bolters to see if they like this spec



I also really like the 30/41 spec. I would rather not put points in Sac honestly, if its a pet unfriendly fight I would put the pet on phase shift and get MD instead of sac for 10%.
Shadow fury is a really good talent, I keep reaching for that hotkey a lot, while its only really useful in some situations. I would have that instead of Demonic empowerment.
I do fairly well in heroics. I havent done all that much raiding yet, so I have to reserve my judgement for raids.

As for the rotation itself. I just do CoA->immolate->incineratexY refreshing coa when immolate is out too.

#53 scheod

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:52 PM

I think Drain Soul will probably outperform it but I think it depends on your crit % mostly. If you can get crits off more often than SB by all means use it since it gets Imp. SB and a lot more damage but Drain Soul ticks will probably have a higher average than your normal SB hits (especially with more warlocks).


Hi, can someone explain to me how drain soul can be the best filler when a mob is < 25% hp? I'm assuming this has something to do with soul siphon, but I'm a little confuse about why its <25% and also where enough extra damage on this spell would come from to make it surpass SB or Incin.

It does 620 dmg over 14.35 seconds...and soul siphon says up to 24% extra dmg for other affliction spells being up. so at maximum its doing...620*1.24=768.8 (base dmg) over 14.35 seconds? That seems like a really long time that you could fill with 600-668 base dmg shadowbolts every <2.5 s. (please excuse my actual numbers because I just picked up WoW again after a break and am lvling back to the cap).

I'm sure I'm missing something that's going to make me seem like a retard lol...but can someone fill me in on where this strategy came from and why it would work?

Thank you!

-Scheod

EDIT: OK, so I just saw that it does 4x its normal dmg (when I get to 80) so..3075 base dmg over <14.5 secs? compaired to roughly 3600 worth of base-dmg non-crit shadowbolts that you can fit in there?

#54 krilz

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:07 PM

Hi, can someone explain to me how drain soul can be the best filler when a mob is < 25% hp? I'm assuming this has something to do with soul siphon, but I'm a little confuse about why its <25% and also where enough extra damage on this spell would come from to make it surpass SB or Incin.

It does 620 dmg over 14.35 seconds...and soul siphon says up to 24% extra dmg for other affliction spells being up. so at maximum its doing...620*1.24=768.8 (base dmg) over 14.35 seconds? That seems like a really long time that you could fill with 600-668 base dmg shadowbolts every <2.5 s. (please excuse my actual numbers because I just picked up WoW again after a break and am lvling back to the cap).

I'm sure I'm missing something that's going to make me seem like a retard lol...but can someone fill me in on where this strategy came from and why it would work?

Thank you!

-Scheod

EDIT: OK, so I just saw that it does 4x its normal dmg (when I get to 80) so..3075 base dmg over <14.5 secs? compaired to roughly 3600 worth of base-dmg non-crit shadowbolts that you can fit in there?

Also counting in Death's Embrace (increased damage when target is <35% and with loads of effects this is an easy choice for any Affliction lock as well as a hybrid with Soul Siphon, but if you don't have that (such as Destro/demo-hybrid and just pure spec of those tree) you might as well forget it.

#55 Jerrybear24

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:49 PM

Does anyone know if Demonic Knowledge is based on the pets base stam + int or it's buffed stam + int. Seems like in the 30/40 +1 might be a good spot for the last point as with it getting fort/kings/ai 4% of it's total stam + int would be a decent amount. While if its base my imp has just over 100 stm and 400 int.

#56 Nefeli

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:06 AM

I was wondering if anyone has come up with a basic stat weight formula for destro (or demo/destro hybrid).

Personally im 0/41/30 but i think it would be safe to assume that any demo/destro or pure destro build would want the same stat weighting.

Assuming hit is capped

I am currently using a weighting that looks like this

Spl Dmg - 1
Crit Rating - .8
Haste - .8
Hit Rating - .65
Stam - .1
Int - .1
Spirit - .2

Was wondering if anyone else has a different wieghting formula that they use, or if there has been any updated spread sheets and stuff like that.

#57 Nnayr

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:08 AM

In my own personal experience, Haste has the biggest factor when it comes to destro specs. Assuming you have decent crit and spellpower. Also take into account that your raid crit goes through the roof. With 19ish character crit as 0/18/58 I'm running 66ish crit on most fights.

#58 phantom478

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:09 AM

I've tried out many different specs since I have hit 80 (deep afflic, deep destro, 0/41/30) and the spec I seem to have the most success with is deep destro. I was just wondering though, what kind of rotation should I use? I was doing target dummy testing with just my buffs, and it seemed like when I was using CoD and CoE over CoA, I would have higher dps...could be wrong though. I have found my ideal rotation CoD/CoE > Immolate > Corruption > Chaos Bolt > Incinerate spam > Conflag > repeat as needed. Does anyone have any qualms with this? Thanks.

#59 Nnayr

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:18 AM

I go with something like Chaosbolt, CoA(for mc procs) Immolate, Incin fillers until about 1sec left on immolate conflag incinx3. Chaosbolt whenever it's off CD. My only problem atm is that Chaosbolt only equates to about 11% of my damage. So I'm really debating whether it's worth it, i think it will scale a lot better with higher spellpower and such but at the moment i really don't think that it is worth it.

#60 phantom478

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:21 AM

Yeah I am having a tough time deciding between 0/41/30 and 0/13/56....I like the fg/emb build because my stats are pretty kickass and I can still pull a decent amount of dps, also leaning towards it because my crit is not even close to what it should be as destro (roughly 15%) so I am not sure.




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