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Upcoming Hunter Changes


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#41 Tapout

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 07:46 PM

I think they just mentioned the pet part of Serpent's Swiftness because they didn't change the the hunter's portion. If they nerfed, or worse completely removed, the haste for the hunter, there's no way in hell it'd be an 8th tier talent.

#42 Masterdragon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 07:51 PM

I understand the pet nerfs, I saw those coming a while ago. Its the Steady Shot nerf that really bugs me, Hopefully with some PTR testing, they'll see that the nerf to Steady is way too much.


Thats the same issue that has me worried. Rest of the nerfs I can potentially see as passible but the Steady Shot nerf has me mind boggled. I mean, we all pretty much seen that the 50/21 spec was going to end up getting nerfed (even though they fixed readiness from the beta to work with Beastial Wrath). Volley I could see too being nerfed and now makes it to where you ask yourself "Why should I Volley now and just break my weapon while I'm at it." Serpent Swiftness and Kindred Spriits are 2 good places to Nerf BM hunters to bring them down in line without affected the other 2 specs.

However the steady nerf is pretty major to all 3 specs. As AP continues to rise, the talent will get weaker and weaker. Blizz is also forgeting that based on the current gear, yes Hunters (and moreso pets) are High but Pets are already reaching a plateau since the big AP buffs are coming from Buffs and not directly from just the 22% of Hunter AP. If we go from 4k-6k AP, the pet is only going to gain an additional 440 AP which is still less then the 550 from BoM.

#43 Ryas

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 07:58 PM

However the steady nerf is pretty major to all 3 specs. As AP continues to rise, the talent will get weaker and weaker. Blizz is also forgeting that based on the current gear, yes Hunters (and moreso pets) are High but Pets are already reaching a plateau since the big AP buffs are coming from Buffs and not directly from just the 22% of Hunter AP. If we go from 4k-6k AP, the pet is only going to gain an additional 440 AP which is still less then the 550 from BoM.


This is something I was saying from way back in the beta, when people were complaining about BM hunter damage back then. We are going to do more damage out of the gate, yes. But as classes get more gear they will see a larger increase of DPS from their gear than we will. Pets are basically capped on DPS already. Yes, I agree a scorpid is doing way too much damage right now, and like I've stated where they nerf pets in the BM tree is understandable and I have no problem with it. However, the steady shot nerf hurts us directly, making AP scale 1/2 as well for hunters.

Now, when we get a piece of gear, while the crit will scale the same, AP is essentially cut in half for effectiveness. Are we going to have to stack crit gems and such now if the steady shot nerf goes live?
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#44 Elendril

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:02 PM

Now, when we get a piece of gear, while the crit will scale the same, AP is essentially cut in half for effectiveness.


This isn't true. The AP contribution to a particular attack is cut in half - the value of AP for your other attacks and for your pet remains the same. I am also concerned about the scaling issue this brings up (as I mentioned in my own post), but to say that AP is now half as valuable to us is a drastic exaggeration.

#45 Ryas

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:05 PM

Exaggeration, yes. But it still lowers the overall effectiveness of AP for a hunter, or at least a BM hunter.

One thing is, I'm curious if they still have plans to make exotic pets still do around 10% damage than a normal pet. I mean, I'm sure they still have the plan to do it, but now might be that time with all these other changes. I'd also like to see the actual change on Rake/Scorpid Poison.

Also, assuming all these changes do go live, I'm thinking of a build like this: 50/14/7

Although, with Readiness not effecting Bestial Wrath anymore, would the full 3 points in longevity outweigh Survival Instincts or more points in Mortal Shots? Making 52/15/5 or 52/12/7 better.
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#46 Mattaos

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:18 PM

Exaggeration, yes. But it still lowers the overall effectiveness of AP for a hunter, or at least a BM hunter.
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I look at this differently. A change like this doesn't really change the effectiveness of AP, in fact, it slightly increases its value. Saying that AP is losing effectiveness is basically saying you do not plan to look to add AP above and beyond what is budgeted on gear. By not adding more AP (and certainly by not taking any away) we further gimp our main attack, Steady Shot. It seems like it is going to be necessary to add as much AP as possible to not only counter the Steady reduction, but the Kindred Spirits nerf. We need to be careful how we word things because many hunters will take comment like this and run with it declaring AP is horrible and to avoid AP. Kind of like haste just before WotLK released.

Of course, this is all speculation until we have a PTR to test these changes.

EDIT: Additional Comment

Also, assuming all these changes do go live, I'm thinking of a build like this: 50/14/7

Although, with Readiness not effecting Bestial Wrath anymore, would the full 3 points in longevity outweigh Survival Instincts or more points in Mortal Shots? Making 52/14/5 or 52/12/7 better.


The 52/14/5 build is already a viable build, just overshadowed by Readiness on fights like Patchwerk and the hugh DPS numbers that it showed. If exotics do become much more of a DPS option pending the severity of the cat/scorpid nerf sliding 1 point from either Mortal Shots or Kindred Spirits might be a better option. 52/14/5 I am thinking the change to Kindred Spirits makes it a lot easier to justify going 4/5 and leave Mortal Shots 5/5 to max damage for Steady Shot.

#47 Ryas

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:21 PM

I see what you're saying, and how it could be misinterpreted. You're right though, it looks like attack power is going to be even more necessary overall. I mean, my point still stands about how its not as effective as before, we just need even more of it now than ever.
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#48 kernall

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:21 PM

This isn't true. The AP contribution to a particular attack is cut in half - the value of AP for your other attacks and for your pet remains the same. I am also concerned about the scaling issue this brings up (as I mentioned in my own post), but to say that AP is now half as valuable to us is a drastic exaggeration.


It is a drastic exaggeration, but he's right that it still significantly devalues Attack Power simply because Steady Shot will still the bread and butter attack for Hunters. Sure our other specials will still benefit from Attack Power, but, unless there's any upgrades to the likes of Arcane Shot I don't see it mattering any time soon.

#49 urthwyte

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:24 PM

I think the developers need to be reminded that the reason more than one of us is brought to a 25 man is because of our damage, and nothing else. Take away our ability to be #1 in damage output, and were are left in the same position rogues are in right now- benched.

If the Call of the Wild change was the only one that went through, on single target fights like Patchwerk you would see hunters now below or even with affliction warlocks and mages. I think the developers are heavily underestimating how much that buff was increasing our damage output.

On top of that we add the readiness and scorpid/cat nerfs. The reason for the scorpid nerf is obvious; the damage loss from losing call of the wild is heavily outweighed by the pet's individual damage. The cat nerf is also understandable, if their goal is to bring all non-exotic pets to the same level of damage. The readiness nerf however is completely unnecessary. A great thing it has done for the hunter class is offer BMs several different routes to go regarding spec choices. There should be variation within each tree, not one specific talent setup that everyone chooses, but it appears the developers are still trying to push for exotic pets being the only viable spec.

With the nerfs I listed above, we already fall below warlocks, mages, and warriors in single target damage, but for some reason that isn't enough, so steady shot damage and pet attack speed is also getting nerfed. My only comment here is that it's pretty comical that they implement a glyph setup to increase our damage from steady shot and then decide it's doing too much damage.

I would suggest starting with the call of the wild and scorpid/cat nerfs, and leaving the rest out. They really underestimate how much impact these specific changes will have. And anyway, the developers should be spending their time instead on buffing rogue dps. They are in the same boat as us in terms of why they are brought to raids.

#50 Faerdael

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:25 PM

As far as the overall AP value goes, perhaps this puts Agility back in place as the stat to stack, as it was looking like raw AP was pulling ahead; not a bad thing in its own right.

It seems to me that the nerf to Readiness/Beastial Wrath, while a source a alot of QQ I can imagine, I really see that as more of a nerf to those hoping to do some double dps arena (which didnt need nerfing) than to pve dps. Yes, its a notable nerf, but if you had specced out full longevity/glyphed for Beastial Wrath, you were really looking at going from something like 28% uptime to 34% uptime due to readiness if you spanned out all the cooldowns, which isn't the end of the world.

Overall the nerfs are mostly percentage tuning based changes as opposed to mechanical, so as far as nerfs go, I think these are good, assuming that the percentages work out to something proper. Lets just hope they don't "overfix" the class (sometimes happens).

#51 Mikari

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:27 PM

I'm gonna be seriously offended if this goes live without Glyph of Steady Shot being fixed at the same time :(


There's nothing wrong with the Glyph, Speccing into Marked for Death stops it working though.

#52 Levidian

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:30 PM

The steady shot portion of the changes was overkill. It was readily apparent to anyone with a clue that read that list.

I made a "think twice" post the other day trying to urge them to make sure they considered things like cotw and how much a huge impact it had on some fights before going crazy with base damage.

I'll be surprised if BM hunters aren't falling behind after the changes go through. MM is eating the steady shot and the rake/scorpid nerfs too so... I'm curious to see where we end up.

#53 Ryas

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:33 PM

In my opinion, they should just go forward with the Call of the Wild/BM tree nerfs and save the Steady Shot nerf for a little while. See where we're at then, and if they still think we're too high then try it out. All these nerfs at the same time is going to skew the data, especially with both pet AND hunter damage being lowered.
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#54 Tsook

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:35 PM

By not adding more AP (and certainly by not taking any away) we further gimp our main attack, Steady Shot. It seems like it is going to be necessary to add as much AP as possible to not only counter the Steady reduction, but the Kindred Spirits nerf.


Stacking AP specifically to "keep steady shot good" doesn't really make sense. (That's like blowing TBW during Viper to 'still do good damage' -- but you're ignoring the opportunity cost of using cooldowns at a time when your damage isn't depressed by half). Steady shot scales half as well with AP now, which changes hunter scaling with all stats, and makes AP somewhat less valuable. There's no reason we should be married to the idea of steady shot doing X damage and run off to get Y more attack power to bring steady shot back into line with what it was before. The mix of damage will change, and steady shot will be a smaller part of that. We still scale with all the same stats and there's still no single answer to what to stack.

The interesting effect, to me, is that as AP totals climb, steady shot will fall further and further behind other attacks. If we're not there already, eventually there will be a point where it's worth using arcane and multi-shot in a rotation as a BM hunter, even though it decreases time to oom, because the damage gained by replacing a steady with a higher damage shot will be greater than the damage lost during extra viper time spamming steady. That's a more interesting rotation, to me, and gives us a 'high dps, poor efficiency' and a 'medium dps, good efficiency' rotation -- which is a good thing in many fights that have different phases where dps may be more important in some. When your most efficient ability is also your highest dps ability, your rotation is trivially obvious and there's very few choices.

#55 Croangelic¸

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:40 PM

I agree hunters were "little" bit too strong.

However, after this (Call of Wild nerf) I wonder, why to take BM hunter to raid (if BM DPS won't be above the roof anymore).
First of all, retribution paladin is, IMO, better choice then BM (buff-wise).
Secondly, there is always danger pet will be killed. Yes, with all healing flying around, it's not really problem in the most fights, but yet... And with killed pet you have crippled player (even if hunter is MM or SV). Not to mention pet is soaking heals which could be "used" by player.
Yes, I know, sky is not falling and there will always be hunters in raids, but, seriously, why slowly turning BMs into range version of TBC rogues?

Steady Shot - I just don't see logic behind this. We have just started playing WotLK. Why nerfing scaling part and not static? I know this won't be the best case to support my question, but do you remember Spriests & Affli locks at Kara level back in TBC? They lost their power later as they didn't scale with crit (as far as I know, that was one of problem). Similar thing is with BM - pet's are not scaling properly with master's crit. And no, Cobra Strikes and GftT are not "pet_wanna_scale" talents. Well, CS could be if it would effect auto attack, but in this state (well, that's my opinion).

Volley - Thank you lord. Hunter is not AE class. We are strong range DD dealers. If they want make Volley special, my idea is too merge daze talent into it, but, seriously, spell caster should be AE classes, not hunters.

Reediness - Ok, this change we could see from mile away, but, on the other hand, what's the point of this 21-t p now?
It's like Preparation resetting only Fan of Knives & Deadly Throw. Maybe idea is to make Reediness reset pet's special as well or something. It's pretty useless talent now. Almost (if not the same) as Aimed Shot in TBC.

KS - Hmmm... DMG wise talent which is weaker then T3 talent? I don't see logic behind this. However... In TBC, I read one article where Cat's swiftness (DMG wise) was better then pure +12agi. WTB some theorycrafting! :]

Call of Wild - welcomed change, but here I would like to rise one other issue. With Scorpid & Cat nerfs - "Hi, Blizzard, I'm cunning pet and I would like to be used somewhere." Ferocity will be only raiding tree.

Oh, and one other thing. One of thing why Reediness was so strong was broken AotB (+21% (not sure!) instead of +10%). Why not first fix broken math?

#56 Mattaos

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:51 PM

Stacking AP specifically to "keep steady shot good" doesn't really make sense. (That's like blowing TBW during Viper to 'still do good damage' -- but you're ignoring the opportunity cost of using cooldowns at a time when your damage isn't depressed by half). Steady shot scales half as well with AP now, which changes hunter scaling with all stats, and makes AP somewhat less valuable. There's no reason we should be married to the idea of steady shot doing X damage and run off to get Y more attack power to bring steady shot back into line with what it was before. The mix of damage will change, and steady shot will be a smaller part of that. We still scale with all the same stats and there's still no single answer to what to stack.

The interesting effect, to me, is that as AP totals climb, steady shot will fall further and further behind other attacks. If we're not there already, eventually there will be a point where it's worth using arcane and multi-shot in a rotation as a BM hunter, even though it decreases time to oom, because the damage gained by replacing a steady with a higher damage shot will be greater than the damage lost during extra viper time spamming steady. That's a more interesting rotation, to me, and gives us a 'high dps, poor efficiency' and a 'medium dps, good efficiency' rotation -- which is a good thing in many fights that have different phases where dps may be more important in some. When your most efficient ability is also your highest dps ability, your rotation is trivially obvious and there's very few choices.


Ok, I understand what you are saying. Steady Shot will become less and less attractive of an attack as gear (including AP) scales. My point is that AP should not be discarded en light of this change. AP still provides value above and beyond just Steady Shot and as a BM hunter that will still continue use Steady Shot as its main attack having AP fall into the same catergory as Haste pre-WotLK release. I am not suggesting we stack AP to achieve the same damage output from the nerfed Steady as we do currently, since that would obviously subtract from other critical stats. What I am saying is that AP for a BM hunter still going to be just as valuable since it affects our pet and other shots also. AP doesn't have a soft cap like haste and shouldn't been ignored as a viable stat because we recieve less value from our Steady attacks.

I posted earlier in this thread the idea of incorporating Arcane Shot into the rotation if this nerf makes it live. If that concept came to fruition then AP would be just as valable again in order to boost damage from Arcane Shot, especially to justify using shot that has a higher mana cost.

#57 Faerdael

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:52 PM

I'm having deja vu of my ret pally a couple months ago. On one hand, Ret was handed a slew of nerfs that seemed like they would be really painful, which ended up not being completely horrible (I'd still appreciate some of my mana back though).

On the other hand, it reminds me of the total backhand that Survival got in Beta. Everyone was running around with lol-lockandload/explosive shot until the AP scaling was nerfed, and suddenly is was barely viable.

I worry that there is some underestimation regarding scaling nerfs, and I hope they tread carefully. Its really a 2 edged sword in my mind; adjusting the percentages can be a great way to tune damage, but it really has a drastic impact for seemingly small amounts. Plus, poor scaling classes are rather drab. Blizzard has been finding ways to make classes like shadow priests scale better, this goes away from that. The flat pet % damage nerfs, great, steady shot . . . well we will see.

One thing I think is great about it however, is the increased appeal of other costly shots (arcane I'm looking at you), which makes mana efficiency more of a DPS factor, and talents like invigoration possibly more interesting. This is a good thing. Mana management has become a rather large variable in WotLK DPS management (as opposed to TBC, where it was get 100% DPS talents, spam mana pots and go), which is one aspect in which Blizzard seems to really be succeeding. Alot of specs have to gage their mana efficiency vs. their damage abilities to max out their DPS - I think of Moonkin, where you have 4 talents purely toward mana management in potential specs, all of which can be dumped into damage talents mana permitting, and part of maxing DPS is figuring out how much mana efficiency you can do without, which I feel is very nice design.

#58 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:53 PM

Reediness - Ok, this change we could see from mile away, but, on the other hand, what's the point of this 21-t p now?
It's like Preparation resetting only Fan of Knives & Deadly Throw. Maybe idea is to make Reediness reset pet's special as well or something. It's pretty useless talent now. Almost (if not the same) as Aimed Shot in TBC.


It still should reset rapid Fire, traps, freezing arrow, misdirection, chimera shot, arcane shot, deterrence, disengage, feign death, mongoose bite, raptor strike, tranquilizing shot, viper sting, aimed shot, kill command, scatter shot, flare, intimidation and wyvern sting. The only reason it doesn't affect explosive shot is because you can't have both.

Just because something isn't useful on patchwork doesn't mean there's no point to it.

#59 Lord BEEF

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:53 PM

I think if the goal is to bring hunters down to the same level as most dps classes and specs, these changes will likely succeed. However they'll also need to do a similar treatment to the other problematic skills and talents like frostfire bolt and deep wounds.

#60 BabelFish

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:59 PM

I suppose it depends on how you interpret what he said... When I read the original post by GC, I read it to indicate that the talent will now only affect the pet, and if this is the case, it's a pretty significant nerf.

This is my major question moving forward. If SS is no longer affecting the hunter, it's going to drastically change the stat priorities for BM.

Edit: And GC answers my question... World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming Hunter Changes

Sorry for the confusion on Serpent's Swiftness. We are not changing its effect on the hunter at all. The nerf just applies to the pet attack speed increase. Hunter 20%. Pet 10%.






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