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#1 Nyuu

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:23 PM

NOTE: I don't play anymore so while most of this isn't affected, some of the talent stuff and comparisons will no longer be valid.

General Information:

Spell Hit and Raids

The hit cap for raid bosses(skull mobs) is 17%. With 17% you will have a zero chance to miss. There used to be a 1% chance to miss that you could never circumvent, but this is no longer the case. You can now achieve 100% hit rates.

Common Hit "Goals" (always rounded up)
17% - 446 Hit rating
14% - 368 Hit rating
11% - 289 Hit rating
8% - 210 Hit rating

1% of Hit is equal to 26.232 hit rating

It's pretty easy to figure out how much hit you need. Check your talents, subtract that from 17, do you have a shadow priest or balance druid providing a debuff? Subtract that. Viola! The rest is what you need from gear/gems/food.


Gear/Simulators

Almost every gear or talent question can be answered by using Rawr. For more info on using Rawr including where to get it and how to set it up properly, read THIS thread. What stat is better for x spec or what piece of gear you should use can be answered by Rawr.

SimulationCraft is another simulator that can be used to compare different specs and classes and their performance in raids. For information on that, read THIS thread.

Vontre's Magegraf rounds out the simulators that I know about. For information on his, go HERE.


Talent Specs

FB(18/53/0) and Arcane(57/3/11) are very close in dps theory wise, although heavy on mana use and FB can vary a bit based on the randomness of crits and hotstreaks. On shorter fights arcane tends to have a bit of an advantage. FFB(0/53/18) is about 5-6% behind but a lot easier on mana although varies wildy on DPS due to the huge crit multiplier combined with hotstreaks. Frost(18/0/53) is behind FFB and not really competitive at the moment.

FB requires the most hit from gear with none from talents.
FFB is next along with Frost getting 3% hit from talents.
Arcane requires the least hit from gear getting 6% from talents.

There are great threads on both FFB(FB is basically the same) and Arcane that you should check for information on rotations, glyphs, consumables etc if you have a question about them.


Mirror Images

Mirror Images drop your threat significantly below zero for 30 seconds when cast, REGARDLESS of whether or not the images remain alive for the whole duration. Check THIS thread for specifics.

Mirror Images are useful for aoeing adds because they allow you to go all out with AOE and not worry about pulling aggro and also as a temporary threat drop .


Ignite "Munching or Rolling"

While sometimes you will lose ignite damage with back to back crits that land close together (like a HS Pyro after a FB/FFB) you also sometimes gain extra ignite damage. Basically don't try and avoid ignite munching by scorching before using HS procs or otherwise delaying them, its not worth it. Just play as normal.



Tips and Tricks:

This macro in combination with good raid frames has been invaluable for me on fights where I have to decurse:

#showtooltip
/cast [target=mouseover,help] [target=player] remove curse


All I have to do is mouseover whoever is cursed and hit the macro without having to click on them.


In addition, there are many fights where Blink can save a lot of time if you get knocked into the air. If you are over flat(ish) ground, using blink will immediately move you back to the ground when you are airborne. This was always useful on fights like Archimonde where I never had to worry about slowfall or using tears and could go right back to dps.


Switch targets early on trash or boss fights with multiple targets if your spell would not land before the mob dies so you don't waste a cast.

#2 Anobix

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:38 PM

1) I believe it was said to be 3 mobs, could be wrong on that.

2) CoC is still bad as far as I know due to its scaling. Only use it for a kiting mechanism or maybe if you are full shatter, but I would still think using Blizzard or Flamestrike (or a fire AoE) would be better.

3) MI should be used at the beginnning of a fight allowing you to use all cooldowns and at the end pop invis if you need to before you break out and possibly (but should not be) above the tank's threat. Some fights are just bad for MI like things with multiple adds, for whatever reason it appears that they taunt mobs (4H is an example I have heard of wipes with them popping out)

4) I would use the mana gem when you need it and get the benefit then unless you will not need the mana, a flame cap may be preferable (??)

5) As covered in MI, assuming that they won't die immediately, I would use MI:

LB -> Scorchx2 -> FFB FFB FFB etc

Popping trinkets etc, but make sure that if you use combustion that the explosion from living bomb will not take a charge (so get the charges out before hand or time it differnetly).

#3 Nemantopia

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:39 PM

1) From an efficiency standpoint, it's likely three, but two troublesome melee mobs? Could very much be worth it for you from a survivability stance.

2) Untalented CoC is 'bad', because of scaling as mentioned. However, when you are kiting and don't have time to cast frostbolt, the snare and damage as an instant cast are vital. Fireblast and Frost Nova on cooldown? What ELSE are you going to do, Ice Lance? Mostly, untalented it's a solo survival and PvP tool, and not good for anything else. In controlled raid settings, stick to your other AoEs.

3) Because you can't really control what they target, it's best to attack a specific one to try and 'set' them to it before applying CC, should that case arise. Obviously, trying to time them around AoEs and CC situations is ideal, but not always possible. I suggest opening with them if possible, and then when they come back in 3 minute fights using your best judgement...and sometimes it's best to just bite the bullet, summon them between AoE pulses [applicable to lots of fights...Keristraza and Loken in particular are anything but MI friendly] and get what little you can out of them.

4) No experience here.

5) This depends almost entirely on three things: 1 - your gear, 2 - your tank's gear, and 3 - how your tank opens. I've been in situations where the tank is 'new' gearwise and i'm decently or superbly geared, and you just have to apply your spell-crit debuff, watch your threat, and let loose only when the tank has truly established a lead. Other times, I've had tanks that outgear me by leaps and bounds, and it doesn't really matter HOW I open...I can go balls to the wall and never touch their threat. Assuming equal gear, it's more a matter of knowing your tank, and probably opening with Mirror Image to unload completely and Ice Block immediately if you suddenly gain too much threat [I have had much success with this tactic, since timing it right means the boss doesn't even move].

#4 Eaglix

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:01 PM

1 - How many targets minimum to make aoe worthwhile ?

I use blizzard when there are 3 more more targets in blizzard range. I don't use any other AOE spell. Note that I'm raiding as frost, tho. Yes, I do belive it's worth switching to blizzard when there are adds gathered around boss. Not only the adds will have to be killed anyway, but it will leighten the healers' job and avoid other classes who don't have good aoe to start attacking them. I'm mostly, when I can, freezing adds with my water elemental in order to gain 50% more crit chance on them. Also, I always way a while before starting to AOE so that I'm sure the tank has enough thread gathered. It would be very stupid having to stop casting a blizzard because of aggro, pure mana waste.

2 - How does cone of cold compare to the other aoes? Snare for kiting still worth it if untalented?

To me, it is worthless, very expensive in mana, need 3 talent points to make serious dmg and need to be close to the targets. Only thing I use coc for is to slow more than one target in one shot when adds are on me.

3 - Optimal timing for Mirror Image? When is the best time to use it? What fights should it be avoided on? In particular, the proper opener or, timing for AOE.

I always use Mirror Image as an opener to be able to proc all my cds when a fight starts without having to watch my thread. Should the fight last a long time, I will benefit from a faster cooldown than other mages who don't.


4 - Optimal use of 2pcT7 ?

I'm not using the 2pcT7 BADGE gear as they give no hit rating and I rather use ebonweave gloves and robe. I will only buy it when I can get the bonus from 4pcT7. With doens't means that, if 2pcT7 drop in a raid and I can get them, that I will not wear them.

5 - Proper play of first 10 seconds.

I open, as a frost mage, with my water elemental. Gives mana to the raid from the beginning, no thread and cool down starts already. Then I cast Mirror Image, followed by spell power up trinket and Icy Vains, eventually ending with a cold snap of I'm sure it will be a very long fight, so the cooldown starts. Then I just nuke, benefiting from my trinkets the most as Icy Vains is still up.


I haven't had the chance to test the FFB yet as I like the full frost AOE dmg and the mana regeneration talent in the arcane tree.

#5 Seonid

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:23 PM

Tips and Tricks:

Or what mages work best on for those fights (Kel'Thuzad) should we be killing the skeletons or leaving them to someone else and work on the Banshees for best results?


Even in 25 man the skeletons die so fast to Hunters you can rarely get a cast off.
We prioritise the adds this way (same 10 or 25 man):

Hunters organise arcs of fire, priority skeletons->Aboms->Banshees
Melee -> Aboms
Caster DPS -> Banshees -> Aboms

The banshee's are slow anyway and even more so with FFB, let alone a frost mage.
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#6 Lileith

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:57 AM

4) I would use the mana gem when you need it and get the benefit then unless you will not need the mana, a flame cap may be preferable (??)


Flame cap : 80*60/180 : 26.67 sp average

Mana gem + 2pT7 : 225*15/120 : 28.125 sp average


There is no point in using Flame cap over Mana gem once you get 2pT7.

#7 naalia

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:44 AM

5 - Proper play of first 10 seconds.

I open, as a frost mage, with my water elemental. Gives mana to the raid from the beginning, no thread and cool down starts already. Then I cast Mirror Image, followed by spell power up trinket and Icy Vains, eventually ending with a cold snap of I'm sure it will be a very long fight, so the cooldown starts. Then I just nuke, benefiting from my trinkets the most as Icy Vains is still up.


Correct me if i am wrong, i am under the impression that the waterelement and MI scale with a mages gear/stats at the time you summon them?

So i try to get my trinkets proc and/or activate the other ones before summoning anything. I think its worth the few seconds of delay if i can give them a percentage of that ~900 spellpower.

#8 ohnoes

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:08 AM

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero

Just started playing my mage again and couldn't seem to find this one within the threads so I figure this is the best place to ask.

#9 Dustwhisper

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:54 AM

Correct me if i am wrong, i am under the impression that the waterelement and MI scale with a mages gear/stats at the time you summon them?

So i try to get my trinkets proc and/or activate the other ones before summoning anything. I think its worth the few seconds of delay if i can give them a percentage of that ~900 spellpower.

MI only scales with Spellpower, can't remember full scaling of WE. I also seem to remember for WE to get the effect of trinkets etc it needs to be popped _after_ summoning it.

#10 Guest_Alezio_*

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:00 AM

This macro in combination with good raid frames has been invaluable for me on fights where I have to decurse:

#showtooltip
/cast [targer=mouseover] Remove Lesser Curse


I find this macro works better for me as it will cast on me if no mouseover target.

#showtooltip
/cast [target=mouseover,help] [target=player] remove curse

Please note lesser part of the name has been removed in recent patch

#11 morgulhir

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:34 AM

Tips and Tricks:
This macro in combination with good raid frames has been invaluable for me on fights where I have to decurse:

#showtooltip
/cast [targer=mouseover] Remove Lesser Curse


I think it's renamed / there's a new spell called "remove curse" now.

EDIT: ah buggers, sorry for that, i'm at work and was working while posting message, someone posted that already before me.
OH, and btw, isn't Decursive a rather good addon for decursing in raid situation? - you even don't have to mouse over anything, just click a button...

#12 Lurker

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 02:31 PM

I think it's renamed / there's a new spell called "remove curse" now.

EDIT: ah buggers, sorry for that, i'm at work and was working while posting message, someone posted that already before me.
OH, and btw, isn't Decursive a rather good addon for decursing in raid situation? - you even don't have to mouse over anything, just click a button...


Yikes. Been a while, hasn't it? :)

You have to mouse over now. Decursive can't target for you, which is what it was doing with the one button spam and following an ordered list. Mouseover macros are just as good as the GCD is plenty of time to move the cursor to a new target. I use Grid for that, but Decursive has its own Microunit Frames that you can use to cure too.

#13 Duodecimal

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 02:35 PM

"Decursive" hasn't worked like that for ages as far as I know. I use a mouseover macro for it.

/bah, beaten.

Like the above poster I mouseover player frames in the Grid ...uh, grid.

Another macro annoyance is my FS(9) FS(8) castsequence for the top two ranks of Flamestrike. I do not get a targeting reticle for the 2nd cast until the 1st is completed. Fortunately I'm able to get the follow-up Blizzard targeted haflway through the FS(8) cast, but there's still a lost fraction of a second for rank 8 getting started.

#14 Enthorn

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 02:40 PM

You have to mouse over now. Decursive can't target for you, which is what it was doing with the one button spam and following an ordered list. . . . but Decursive has its own Microunit Frames that you can use to cure too.


Are you referring to an older build of Decursive? I know Decursive used to automatically remove curses from targets via one button, and Blizzard frowned upon that, naturally. However, newest versions of Decursive, as you mention, have an icon for each raid member. Icons change depending on how the target is afflicted -- cursed or charmed. Left clicking on an icon casts remove curse. Right clicking casts polymorph. It's much more effecient than franctically trying to find the player and mousing over them, especially when things can obstruct them. It's essentially the same as just clicking on their portrait and having a mouse-over macro, but I like it better because I use Blizzard's default UI for player health bars, and Decursive allows me to easily keep track of everyone.

Now that resto shamans and tree druids can remove curse though...

#15 Wizeowel

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 03:43 PM

Flame cap : 80*60/180 : 26.67 sp average
Mana gem + 2pT7 : 225*15/120 : 28.125 sp average
There is no point in using Flame cap over Mana gem once you get 2pT7.


Although you are correct, I think you are vastly oversimplifying the comparison :)

Since most of your other buffs, except molten fury and heroism, also have 10-15-20s durations the higher spellpower from the 2T7 gem is much more easy to stack effectively. Especially stacking icy veins, a potion of speed and a clicky trinket with a 2T7 mana gem during heroism'd molten fury can result in a short period of huge damage, whereas it is much harder to stack many cooldowns onto the 60 seconds of a flame cap.

#16 Seonid

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 05:22 PM

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero


The final detonation of LB will consume a combustion charge which would be a bit of a waste, so that's the main time to skip or delay the LB cast.
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#17 Thegoodman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 05:22 PM

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero

Just started playing my mage again and couldn't seem to find this one within the threads so I figure this is the best place to ask.


The only time you won't want to use Living Bomb is a situation where AoE is flat out not allowed. The only time I know of that you shouldn't be doing any AoE are on specific achievements that tell you not to kill any adds.

Loatheb - Spore Loser - Achievement - World of Warcraft

That comes to mind but I am not sure what other achievements have low HP adds that you cannot kill.

#18 cylipsa

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 05:43 PM

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero

Just started playing my mage again and couldn't seem to find this one within the threads so I figure this is the best place to ask.


During the Kel'Thuzad fight, if you are on banshee's, do not cast living bomb early, it will go off while the banshee's are still in the cubby and aggro others.

#19 Cirxia

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 06:15 PM

Which Potion works out better or ?

Assuming you are using Wild Magic, during your Hero/IV phase of the fight?

#20 ohnoes

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:22 PM

During the Kel'Thuzad fight, if you are on banshee's, do not cast living bomb early, it will go off while the banshee's are still in the cubby and aggro others.


Yea I made that mistake once, good times. So even if you use Icy Veins+Hero+Haste pot, its still worth the global recasting Living Bomb correct?




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