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#21 Plankel

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 12:15 AM

Yes it is. Keep in mind that haste effects the global cooldown as well, so living bomb scales just as good with haste as any other spell (except you can only cast it once every 12 seconds ofcourse).

Crit is a different matter, since LB scales badly with that. Especially on Loatheb I am not sure if it is worth to keep LB up

#22 havocc

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:45 PM

hi all love the forum :)
i have just hit lvl80 full arcane spec
my spell rotation is ab-arc barrage misile barrage when procc.
at this level what is the best dps specc and spell rotaion and what would be my stat priority?

i would appreciate any help you could give :)

thanks

#23 Obfu

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:56 PM

10 man Faerlina is another situation where AOE can be bad. 2X LB, a DK and a tank with a damage shield, well we killed all the adds before we even realised what was happening

#24 Maje

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 02:04 PM

10 man Faerlina is another situation where AOE can be bad. 2X LB, a DK and a tank with a damage shield, well we killed all the adds before we even realised what was happening

Somehow I doubt your living bombs killed adds that have 200k hp, even if you were 4 mages.

It would take 50 living bombs each criting for 4k explosion, or 4 very lucky mages and it would take them around 2 and a half minutes LBing the crap out of it.

#25 Obfu

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 03:19 PM

It seems I should have been much more thorough explaining the details of my previous post.

For those whom are are unfamiliar with the 10 man Faerlina.
Briefly:
Those adds have 80K health.
They are typically tanked close to the boss since they are not MC'd, and casters are difficult to move at the proper time.

I mentioned DK but I failed to explain that they also use a powerful AOE (Death and Decay) as part of a typical DPS rotation.

The warrior ability Damage shield causes a small amount of DPS each time they block a melee attack

I thought 2XLB clearly implied 2 mages casting LB, but I suppose that I should have been more clear.

I'd guess it took about 50-60s to kill them all. A quite modest 1333 dps between the 4 people incidentally hitting them. With the exception of the DK, we were wearing >80% SWP gear, so I would be quite surprised if other better geared groups didn't have a similar experience.

#26 Enthorn

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 04:04 PM

Which Potion works out better or ?


Potion of Speed is used in a Frostfire rotation. Runic Mana Potion is used in a Fireball rotation, unless you have ideal mana return (which is not always the case in 10-mans, which can also be said of Frostfire though).

Suffice to say, it's vastly better to use Runic Mana Potion than use Evocation and Potion of Speed. There's absolutely no reason to stop DPS at any time if it can be prevented.

#27 Zynix

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:59 AM

1 - Generally I AOE when the tank is tanking around 3 mobs minimum, for example the waves in COT:Stratholm, if it's 2 mobs then I would DOT one and zerg the other.

2 - If the mobs are nearly dead, and it's not worth spamming another AOE, on a rare occassion, I would use CoC on the pack along with Dragon's Breath. With the talents to increase CoC crit, it makes it an ok move to use, but I am personally not a fan of it.

3 - I mainly use Mirror Image on boss fights for HC's, but during Naxx I would use it for some mob packs. I like to use AOE right at the start of a pack pull, if I pull I generally blame it on the tank, a pala tank is always nice for the pack pulls.

4 - Not experienced this yet.

5 - For the first 10 seconds of a boss fight, I make sure combustion is renewed before the pull. When the fight begins, 99% of the time my first 2 scorches proc Hot Streak and I pop my macro which includes Mirror Image, Trinket and Icy Veins, and then begin the zerg with a Frostfire Bolt, an instant Pyroblast before it fades, and then put on Living Bomb (I renew this everytime it is out).

#28 Hoffski

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:09 PM

5 - For the first 10 seconds of a boss fight, I make sure combustion is renewed before the pull. When the fight begins, 99% of the time my first 2 scorches proc Hot Streak and I pop my macro which includes Mirror Image, Trinket and Icy Veins, and then begin the zerg with a Frostfire Bolt, an instant Pyroblast before it fades, and then put on Living Bomb (I renew this everytime it is out).



So you're wasting 2 of your combustion charges on scorches instead of FFBs?

#29 Zynix

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:40 PM

So you're wasting 2 of your combustion charges on scorches instead of FFBs?


If you think it's wasting combustion charges then so be it. But I prefer to stack scorch ASAP, and then use the proc of Hot Streak with a FFB and instant Pyroblast. I don't believe choosing to stack scorch first is wasting 2 combustion charges. I am using the scorches first not just to get the stack of 5 immediately, but also because I like to set off my Hot Streak ASAP rather than wait for it, and stack scorch later on in the fight.

#30 Hoffski

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:48 PM

If you think it's wasting combustion charges then so be it. But I prefer to stack scorch ASAP, and then use the proc of Hot Streak with a FFB and instant Pyroblast. I don't believe choosing to stack scorch first is wasting 2 combustion charges. I am using the scorches first not just to get the stack of 5 immediately, but also because I like to set off my Hot Streak ASAP rather than wait for it, and stack scorch later on in the fight. Please explain how stacking scorch is wasting it.



Nothing is stopping you from stacking scorches first, but also nothing is forcing you to pop combustion before the fight even starts. If you wait 3 seconds to pop combustion so you can stack scorches first, then you'll get much more damage from 3 FFB crits than 2 scorch crits and 1 pyro/ffb crit. On boss fights I usually do the following:

1) Cast living bomb while tank aggros and I move into position.
2) Cast scorch twice.
3) Cast FFB until living bomb explodes. While casting, use mirror image.
4) After bomb explodes, pop icy veins and combustion.

This pretty much guarantees all 3 combustion charges will be used for FFBs and does a ton of damage in the first 20 seconds of the fight without pulling aggro.

#31 Sancus

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:52 PM

Uhh, why would you use Combustion before the pull in the first place? Use it after you have Scorch up....
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#32 Zynix

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:54 PM

Nothing is stopping you from stacking scorches first, but also nothing is forcing you to pop combustion before the fight even starts. If you wait 3 seconds to pop combustion so you can stack scorches first, then you'll get much more damage from 3 FFB crits than 2 scorch crits and 1 pyro/ffb crit. On boss fights I usually do the following:

1) Cast living bomb while tank aggros and I move into position.
2) Cast scorch twice.
3) Cast FFB until living bomb explodes. While casting, use mirror image.
4) After bomb explodes, pop icy veins and combustion.

This pretty much guarantees all 3 combustion charges will be used for FFBs and does a ton of damage in the first 20 seconds of the fight without pulling aggro.


That does sound like a better way to do it. Though I prefer to pop mirror image along with icy veins and trinket, I could add combustion into that. Whats your reason for using mirror image at that stage?

#33 Enthorn

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:55 PM

First ten seconds of the fight should be pretty easy. Throw Living Bomb up, cast scorch twice, blow your cooldowns, and start spamming Frostfire Bolt. Cooldowns (usually in a macro): Combustion, Icy Veins, Trinket (if applicable), Mirror Image. Never go into a fight with Combustion already up. Scorch doesn't crit for 334%.

Some people start out the fight by popping a Haste potion immediately so that the cooldown begins. This works if you know the second when the tank will engage, otherwise you'll just end up using the potion, getting 12-13 seconds of haste buff, and you won't be able to use it later (or even have the option of using a mana potion). I've only had a few fights where I can use a haste potion over a runic mana potion, and I haven't used a haste potion before the pull yet.

You'll want to save your mana gem, it's simply not worth stacking just for the sake of stacking if it means wasting the ~4400 mana you'll be getting back. You should use your mana gem immediately when you can get all of the mana back, though. If it happens to fall on a second cooldown, awesome. Case in point, I just got my 2-piece set bonus, so I can ditch my Serpent-Coil Braid. Unfortunately, both of my trinkets are on use ( and ). I've generally been using the second trinket with a mana gem, but I'll be replacing it with soon (spell power will generally always be better for a frostfire build, but there is a certain amount of haste that Rawr will suggest).

#34 Hoffski

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 03:00 PM

That does sound like a better way to do it. Though I prefer to pop mirror image along with icy veins and trinket, I could add combustion into that. Whats your reason for using mirror image at that stage?


I just use it any time before I blow all my cooldowns so I won't pull aggro.

#35 Kintoun

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 06:59 PM

...snip...(spell power will generally always be better for a frostfire build, but there is a certain amount of haste that Rawr will suggest).

Always make sure to constantly recheck stat values in rawr when you add a new piece of gear or re-gem. Rawr always bounces back and forth between haste and crit for me (dramatically).

#36 Herbo

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:14 PM

That does sound like a better way to do it. Though I prefer to pop mirror image along with icy veins and trinket, I could add combustion into that. Whats your reason for using mirror image at that stage?


There is actually a bit of a mechanics reason to pop Mirror Image at the start of a fight. It's not the best aggro dump to use because it just suspends your threat for 30seconds or until your images get gibbed. It is, however, a great way to suspend your initial threat generation so that you can blow your trinkets and cooldowns in that first 10seconds of a fight.

Due to the fact that pulling aggro is related to a percentage of threat, it will be harder to pull aggro the larger the total threat pool is. Even if you look at a fight like Patchwerk that is a stand-n-blow-it fight with tank threat generation upwards of 5k TPS a tricked out FFB mage can get some gnarly crits that will spike their dps and tps through the roof in the first 10 seconds if they were to blow all cooldowns and trinkets.

A tank can easily be sitting in the neighborhood of 50k+ threat after ten seconds but if a mage were to spike a huge FFB > Hotstreak Pyro at around the 6-7.5 second marker they would be riding the fine line of reaching their 130% threat limit. A good tank could still hold them off but it would be a bit of a nail biter. If the tank wiffed a swing in there while the mage got lucky with crits it could go south in a hurry. This whole scenario is dependant upon the RNG so it could get better or worse depending on how both parties perform.

If you look at the first 30seconds of a fight, however, the mage's tps will start to even out after their trinkets and cooldowns start to drop off, and the tank's threat generation will have a chance to match or pull ahead. When your images fade (assuming they live 30s) and all your pent up threat is slammed down you are then dealing with a possible threat ceiling of 195k (130% x 5000TPS x 30s). That's 6500dps (sustained not incremental spikes) you'd have to crank out to pull agro off a 5k TPS tank.

In the end Mirror Image is helpful whenever you decide to pop it but it can really do the most good in my opinion early as possible in a fight allowing you to get the most use out of trinkets and cooldowns for maximum good times.

#37 nathanbp

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:20 PM

When your images fade (assuming they live 30s) and all your pent up threat is slammed down


Quick point: I'm 99.9% certain that your threat does not return to normal levels for 30 seconds no matter how long your images last (you can see a Nathanbp loses Mirror Image line in your combat log after 30 seconds, even if your images die right away).

#38 Saruk

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:31 PM

Rather than write mouse-over macros and use Decursive, for those of you using Grid, the combination of Grid and Clique (Clique : WoWInterface Downloads : Unit Mods) is actually pretty nice. Install Clique and just go into your spell-book then specify any spell you want to cast with a mouse button click on a frame. I use middle mouse for decurse. When the mouse is not hovering over a game frame, the button you use is returned to whatever other use you have it assigned to.

#39 manly

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:58 PM

There is actually a bit of a mechanics reason to pop Mirror Image at the start of a fight. It's not the best aggro dump to use because it just suspends your threat for 30seconds or until your images get gibbed. It is, however, a great way to suspend your initial threat generation so that you can blow your trinkets and cooldowns in that first 10seconds of a fight.

Due to the fact that pulling aggro is related to a percentage of threat, it will be harder to pull aggro the larger the total threat pool is. Even if you look at a fight like Patchwerk that is a stand-n-blow-it fight with tank threat generation upwards of 5k TPS a tricked out FFB mage can get some gnarly crits that will spike their dps and tps through the roof in the first 10 seconds if they were to blow all cooldowns and trinkets.

A tank can easily be sitting in the neighborhood of 50k+ threat after ten seconds but if a mage were to spike a huge FFB > Hotstreak Pyro at around the 6-7.5 second marker they would be riding the fine line of reaching their 130% threat limit. A good tank could still hold them off but it would be a bit of a nail biter. If the tank wiffed a swing in there while the mage got lucky with crits it could go south in a hurry. This whole scenario is dependant upon the RNG so it could get better or worse depending on how both parties perform.

If you look at the first 30seconds of a fight, however, the mage's tps will start to even out after their trinkets and cooldowns start to drop off, and the tank's threat generation will have a chance to match or pull ahead. When your images fade (assuming they live 30s) and all your pent up threat is slammed down you are then dealing with a possible threat ceiling of 195k (130% x 5000TPS x 30s). That's 6500dps (sustained not incremental spikes) you'd have to crank out to pull agro off a 5k TPS tank.

In the end Mirror Image is helpful whenever you decide to pop it but it can really do the most good in my opinion early as possible in a fight allowing you to get the most use out of trinkets and cooldowns for maximum good times.

You really ought to get your facts straight. Mirror Image 'reduces' your threat for 30s, totally unlinked with your images themselves. It doesn't matter whether they die or not. All that mirror image does, effectively, is normalize your threat over 30s, and due to bugs in it, it forces you to pop MI before you reach 97.75% threat.

As far as I'm concerned, the dps increase from mirror image is abysmally low -- I'd rather save it as a threat management tool rather than try and eek out one potential extra MI cast in a fight. Anyway they do tend to die a lot.
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#40 LostnFound

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 08:19 PM

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero

Just started playing my mage again and couldn't seem to find this one within the threads so I figure this is the best place to ask.




I have been testing not using living bomb on fights like thadius lotheb and patchwerk. And noticed an increase in dps can anyone explain this? Or maybe this will change with living bomb being able to crit and proc hot streaks.

Here is a link to the webstats.

Wow Web Stats

Sorry cant find the wws reports that I used living bomb on these fights.




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