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#41 geonon

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 08:28 PM

I just left Deep Frost for FfB spec based on rec's from here and guild. I understand the importance of getting scorch up to increase crit and not wasting combustion on scorch, but I don't fully get the rotation:

LB > Scorch > Scorch > FfB > FfB > FfB > (once LB explodes) Combustion > Spam FfB

1. Is 2 Scorch's enough to get crit up?
2. Do we still throw in a Instant Pyro when available?
3. When the mob's health is low and FfB cast time is too long, do we spam Scorch until death?
4. Is there any benefit of having fireball on my actionbar for heroics/raids?

Again, coming from Deep Frost, I could always do Ice Lance/Frost Nova(Or Blizzard) when they were low and cast time was a concern. I just don't want DPS to drop because I don't know the new rotation or understand the spec.

I guess this is what I've been using since yesterday and it's been a significant improvement over Deep Frost, but I'm still low on the DPS meter.

LB (as tank begins to pull) > Icy Veins/MI (as tank makes contact) > Scorch > Scorch > FfB > FfB > FfB (LB usually ignites) > Combustion > Spam FfB (until combustion caps) > Rinse and repeat.
Insert instant Pyroblast when applicable and Tome of Arcane Phenomena when Icy Veins expires

Thanks for all of the advice in this thread. I've already learned so much.

Geonon (Noctem Ordeum) - Undead Mage - (US)Terokkar

#42 LostnFound

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 08:35 PM

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero

Just started playing my mage again and couldn't seem to find this one within the threads so I figure this is the best place to ask.


1. Is 2 Scorch's enough to get crit up?
2. Do we still throw in a Instant Pyro when available?
3. When the mob's health is low and FfB cast time is too long, do we spam Scorch until death?
4. Is there any benefit of having fireball on my actionbar for heroics/raids?


Geonon (Noctem Ordeum) - Undead Mage - (US)Terokkar



1. 2 scorch's should be enough with glyph it stacks it 5times.
2. Yes I always pyro the second hot streak procs unless in the middle of a ffb cast finish the cast. Also if you dont use it right away you might crit with 2 other spells and possibly lose another hot streak proc.
3. Fireblast!
4. Untalented fireball vs ffb glyphed why?

#43 Herbo

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:50 PM

You really ought to get your facts straight. Mirror Image 'reduces' your threat for 30s, totally unlinked with your images themselves. It doesn't matter whether they die or not. All that mirror image does, effectively, is normalize your threat over 30s, and due to bugs in it, it forces you to pop MI before you reach 97.75% threat.

As far as I'm concerned, the dps increase from mirror image is abysmally low -- I'd rather save it as a threat management tool rather than try and eek out one potential extra MI cast in a fight. Anyway they do tend to die a lot.


-90Million threat for 30seconds in my mind was functionally equal to suspending your threat but you are of course right about my use of terms. I totally biffed the mirror images being tied to the threat reduction bit, but wouldn't normalizing your threat over an early 30seconds of a fight be reason enough to utilize it early? The dps increase from the spell itself is completely inconsequential given that they die when they are glared at, but the dps increase from being free from early threat management seemed in my mind to make it worthwhile since the spell does not consume any of your GCD for standard spell rotations.

Granted since it doesn't do anything long-term to your threat table where in a fight you cast it is not going to affect when or if you use invisibilty/pull aggro. Good tanks don't have threat issues in regards to early bombardment these days anyway, but casting it early doesn't hurt more than casting it late in my mind especially if you play with tanks that aren't perfect. Am I totally off base?

#44 morgulhir

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:01 PM

I would use this rota to begin a fight as FFB spec (Deep fire)

1. LB when tank pulls
2. Scorch -> Scorch (Glyph of scorch - gives you 3 stacks with 1 cast)
3. FFB spam (and ofc Pyro when HS procs) until LB explodes (for it should not take a tick from combustion with crit)
4. use this macro:
/cast combustion
/cast icy veins
/use 13 (or 14 or a trinket name)
/use <mana gem> just shift+click on your managem when making the macro (place this line in the macro only if 1) You have 2xT7 setbonus 2) you are sure you're not going to get any OOM problems later on)
/cast mirror image (for making sure you won't pull with first crits)
/cast frostfire bolt (optional, you can also just press this macro and FFB button separately)
5. Then just continue 1) keeping scorch up 2) Keeping LB up 3) Pyro on HS -> else, FFB spam :)

This is cool, as you only press 1 button, and really don't lose any time on clicking the spells 1 by 1.

If your tank doesn't really rock on making aggro, you can use "invisibility" just a few seconds before IM fades, so you'd go lower in threat and even to 0 with 3 sec.

When the fight continues and stuff becomes coming out of CD mana gem comes out of CD before the other spells, if you have mana issues, use it when you can, if not - save it for the next macro-time :)

#45 manly

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:06 PM

It depends on context. Usually threat issues will happen when everyone is equal on threat. This almost always means on the pull, or after an aggro wipe. As far as any other times are concerned, generally you won't run into threat issues, but again, it depends on context. I try and save my MI for when we get double spark during malygos, because thats a garanteed aggro pull otherwise. I try to save MI for AOE. It comes down to how the fight is designed, but making a sweeping decision to always pop MI at the start of the fight strikes me as wholly inedequate for a number of cases. Just going by memory, the list of fights I will intentionally avoid it on the pull is:

-malygos
-razuvious (I often run into threat issues later in the fight for some reason, prob due to tank switches)
-gothik (not that theres a boss on the pull, but I do save it for aoe)
-heigan (debatable, usually the run towards the center platform is enough aggro built up by tanks to make it hard to pull aggro right off the bat, but it can happen later on)
-noth (save for teleports if needed)
-gluth (save for the one-off zombie that whacks you)
-sartharion
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
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#46 Carnivean

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:23 PM

I have been testing not using living bomb on fights like thadius lotheb and patchwerk. And noticed an increase in dps can anyone explain this? Or maybe this will change with living bomb being able to crit and proc hot streaks.

Here is a link to the webstats.

Wow Web Stats

Sorry cant find the wws reports that I used living bomb on these fights.


On Loathebm yes the totally abnormal high crit rate makes straight FFb spam better than any rotation (maybe add scorch to the mix).

On any other fight, no. How many IDs have you cleared 3 maybe 4? Anecdotal as it can get, the maths says something else ;).

#47 Saphirox

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:50 PM

On Loathebm yes the totally abnormal high crit rate makes straight FFb spam better than any rotation (maybe add scorch to the mix).

On any other fight, no. How many IDs have you cleared 3 maybe 4? Anecdotal as it can get, the maths says something else ;).


Not sure if anyone's done any math on this, but last time we did that boss another mage in the guild (with better gear) simply went scorch/pyro and did very good damage. Whats your thoughts on this? scorch/pyro vs FFB/pyro(mantain scorch)

#48 Inoko

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:06 AM

Not sure if anyone's done any math on this, but last time we did that boss another mage in the guild (with better gear) simply went scorch/pyro and did very good damage. Whats your thoughts on this? scorch/pyro vs FFB/pyro(mantain scorch)


My thoughts are that this other mage isn't playing optimally?

Scorch doesn't scale as well as FFB with crit%, since it only crits for ~200%, and does less base damage to begin with. While FFB hits for 330%~ on crits, and has a higher base damage, and gets better stat gains from spell power because its coefficient isn't as bad.
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#49 morgulhir

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:20 AM

But you'll do a lot more scorches during that time and thus get a lot more Pyroblasts.
Back in the beginning of TBC I used scorch spam unitl ClearCast and then shoot off Arcane missiles - was a very manaefficient build.

#50 Maje

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:52 AM

Even on Loatheb it's better to use LB albeit not by much, the dps increase of using LB is around .5% (at least for my gear, assuming 100% crit chance), however using LB means you need to click one more button and worse still it's an instant sepll that suffers from your lag so on loatheb you might be better of not using it.

I don't see a reason not to use LB on Thadius though, the damage buff applies to LB as much as it applies to Ffb so if it's worth using without the buff it's worth using with it.

#51 Inoko

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:01 AM

But you'll do a lot more scorches during that time and thus get a lot more Pyroblasts.
Back in the beginning of TBC I used scorch spam unitl ClearCast and then shoot off Arcane missiles - was a very manaefficient build.


Yes, you'll get more pyroblasts. But you're going to be losing a metric fuckton of damage getting them. You're talking about (at 100% crit rating, for simplicity):

2 scorchs + 1 pyroblast every 3 GCDs (I'm using GCDs because they will vary with your haste) versus 2 FFBs and 1 pyroblast every 5 GCDs.

So, every 15 GCDs, you get 10 scorches, 5 pyros or 6 FFBs and 3 pyros. So, what we need to be able to tell is:

10 Sc + 2 Pyro = 6FFB (assuming everything crits)

Using data for myself from My KT kill last night, 8650 average FFB crit damage, 8370 average pyroblast crit damage and 2902 average scorch crit damage.

(10*2902) + (2*8370) = 29020 + 16740 = 45760

(6*8650) = 51900

FFB wins out.
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#52 morgulhir

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 07:24 AM

Hmm, yes, true. FFB by maths is better.
Though, during 6FFB and 3 Pyro, you still have to scorch once also, to keep the buff up.
And i doubd scorch+pyro mage would be frostfire spec, seems fire/arcane most likely,
Anyway, i'd like a mage like that in my raid - the scorch buff is always up and i don't have to worry about anything :)

#53 willem11

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:20 PM

Hmm, yes, true. FFB by maths is better.
Though, during 6FFB and 3 Pyro, you still have to scorch once also, to keep the buff up.
And i doubd scorch+pyro mage would be frostfire spec, seems fire/arcane most likely,
Anyway, i'd like a mage like that in my raid - the scorch buff is always up and i don't have to worry about anything :)


good mages keep the scorch debuff up always anyway..doesnt matter if you refresh it 20 times or once...

Also remember that scorch scales way worse with about every stat as frostfire bolt does (damage, crit and haste) so as you increase your stats more it will fall behind more.

#54 Lysara

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:37 PM

While not strictly Mage-news, after the patch you'll be able to buy the Flow of Knowledge trinket for only 25 , which is identical to . So if you don't have much luck with drops start doing Wintergrasp a bit.

#55 Roywyn

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:42 PM

While not strictly Mage-news, after the patch you'll be able to buy the Flow of Knowledge trinket for only 25 , which is identical to . So if you don't have much luck with drops start doing Wintergrasp a bit.

I expect that to be changed to 84 resilience instead of 84 crit.
Because it's a PvP item and the melee version has resilience.
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#56 Faxmonkey

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:01 AM

Under the category of "Tips and Tricks", It's been brought to my attention that combining and reforming Eternals (and presumably primals) is instant, has no global cooldown, and, most importantly, counts as a spell cast. This means it can be macroed as a way to instantly and quickly *Force* "on spell cast" trinkets like to proc (assuming their not on GCD). Furthermore, I'm fairly sure (though I have no way to test) that this could also be used to *instantly* stack your to 10 stacks.

The downside to this approach is that the macro must be spammed, because there's a momentary delay before the Eternal or component parts are "created" and thus you can't simply combine and recombine the same eternal all in one macro press.

The following macro works if spammed:
/use Eternal water
/use Crystallized Water

You can of course just do the whole Slowfall thing, but that costs mana and GCD's. This is something you can do as you're actually running in for the pull.

#57 Wcshadow

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 01:09 AM

Forgive me if im not asking the question the right way or whatever, but I was reading somewhere that in LK as a mage we shouldn't gem for spell damage past 1400, afterwards just let gear boost our SD.

After 1400 from gear we should gem for crit/haste till haste is 220 then solely for crit (assuming hit capped)

Can anyone help me with that and tell me if its correct or how incorrect it is.

#58 Chira

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 02:12 AM

Under the category of "Tips and Tricks", It's been brought to my attention that combining and reforming Eternals (and presumably primals) is instant, has no global cooldown, and, most importantly, counts as a spell cast.

If I'm not mistaken, this was fixed, as it no longer worked for me. It didn't add trinket charges, and it didn't proc my other trinket either. I tried it with Earth, Air, and Water, for what it's worth.

#59 manly

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 08:53 AM

Unless it was fixed in the past 30 minutes, it works. And god it spams the logs like nothing else.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

#60 Lileith

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 09:08 AM

Forgive me if im not asking the question the right way or whatever, but I was reading somewhere that in LK as a mage we shouldn't gem for spell damage past 1400, afterwards just let gear boost our SD.

After 1400 from gear we should gem for crit/haste till haste is 220 then solely for crit (assuming hit capped)

Can anyone help me with that and tell me if its correct or how incorrect it is.


You should'nt take your info from MMO Champion forum...

It takes ~4000 spell power before gemming for crit becomes better than spell power. You should use spellpower gem unless you are aiming for a socket bonus (and then you should use either hit/spell or crit/spell gems depending on your crit rating).




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