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Druid changes Patch 3.08


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#21 Brute

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:19 PM

The way I interpret the Survival Instincts change is that currently it doesnt take into account any health trinkets or other temporary health effects whereas it sounds like now it should?

Also, with regards to the Mangle (Bear) correction/nerf... is mangles threat primarily a static threat value or is it damage based? Actually kind of bothered by this one because currently WITH the bug I feel our single target threat and dmg is where it should be in relation to the other tanks in a similar encounter. 16% dmg reduction on an ability being used every 4.5 seconds (to speak nothing of bear berserk) isnt trivial....

#22 Diameter

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:29 PM

The Bear Mangle nerf will still have us doing more damage than other tanks. In Patchwerk with unlimited rage, I'm seeing about 100 dps decrease from this. The only time I do less damage than another tank is when our prot pally offtanks 3 or more mobs.

#23 Deathwing

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:31 PM

I remain disappointed with the armor change. Still no effort to make the oodles of *offensive* stats on our gear of any use with regards to the *survival* stats bears like. Not to mention gearing is 'dumbed' down even further. Make us care about more stats. Not less. Maybe with some big content patch when they've had more time to work out the remaining kinks, but I'm a bit dubious as I don't see them overhaul the system twice in a short time.


Why do people keep saying this? This change does exactly what you're complaining about. Now, instead of only caring about armor on your accessories and weapons, it's just a relevant stat on approximately equal footing as the other mitigation/survival stats. Download the most recent rawr and play around with the 3.0.4 armor option. You'll see that in a lot of slots, items with no bonus armor are competitive with the old bonus armor items.

#24 Micka

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:32 PM

A couple more bullets were added on mmo-champion:


I'm guessing the Survival Instincts is 30% of current health (current maximum health is a little confusing).


Current Maximum health includes buffs, whereas current health would be the health that you have at the time of popping the skill.
Sounds like a solid buff.

#25 Deliverance

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:39 PM

One more for the list, Sadirin - probably added to mmo-champion after your original post:

Berserk now hit up to 1 target instead of 3. (Error ?)

I sure hope it is an error in the patch notes - I would regret the loss of such a useful AOE tanking tool. We can do without it, of course, but it is so great fun currently. :)

On Cat(Swipe) - it will be interesting to see just how it is implemented, especially to see if it builds a combo point or not. As an energy based spec, they cannot allow Cat(Swipe) to do so much damage that one would use it to the exclusion of combo point building and the use of finishers when facing a small number of mobs to AOE (say 1-4 mobs) without seriously hurting the base design.

#26 Krag

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:44 PM

Current Maximum health includes buffs, whereas current health would be the health that you have at the time of popping the skill.
Sounds like a solid buff.


Yeah, I misunderstood that it seems. I just assumed it was something aimed at bears somehow due to Last Stand not being mentioned under warrior changes, but maybe their version already works like that (I haven't played my warrior in forever).

In that case that is buff indeed.

#27 Sadirin

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:46 PM

Download the most recent rawr and play around with the 3.0.4 armor option. You'll see that in a lot of slots, items with no bonus armor are competitive with the old bonus armor items.


Thats not quite correct: armor trinkets/rings/cloaks got nerfed to the lower level of other tanking euipment. It is not that other equipment gets better for bears. Overall we _loose_ . We cannot choose from good equipment now, we can only choose from bad equipment now.

So, lets take RAWR: with the armor changes i loose in my current setup something around 3000 armor and my overall points drop from 285 000 to 260 000. Now, I can change rings, trinkets, cloaks etc ... I loose an additional 3000 points an get 1k life and 2% dodge and my overall points raise to 276 000 points overall. But it is stil a nerf.

Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.

#28 Krag

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:52 PM

Thats not quite correct: armor trinkets/rings/cloaks got nerfed to the lower level of other tanking euipment. It is not that other equipment gets better for bears. Overall we _loose_ . We cannot choose from good equipment now, we can only choose from bad equipment now.

So, lets take RAWR: with the armor changes i loose in my current setup something around 3000 armor and my overall points drop from 285 000 to 260 000. Now, I can change rings, trinkets, cloaks etc ... I loose an additional 3000 points an get 1k life and 2% dodge and my overall points raise to 276 000 points overall. But it is stil a nerf.

Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.

Yes, it's a nerf. But if they did not do it this way they would do it in another fashion. It's been quite a while since it was noted that overall bear tanking had to come down in some way.

#29 Sadirin

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:00 PM

"come down in some way" .. well, we will see bear tanking in T8/T9. I am not quite sure if bears will still be happy concerning overall avoidance and mitigation.

#30 Deliverance

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:03 PM

Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.

I'm having trouble seeing that; Just which sort of equipment are you assuming that every normal bear has when the patch hits? To get anywhere close to losing 3k armour from the change without having any gear from Naxxramas you almost have to be using Badge of Tenacity and Offering of Sacrifice - something that a lot of old druid tanks will have by now and more by the time the patch goes live but which can most certainly not be assumed to be the case for every normal bear (and is certainly not going to be the case for most new bears in the expansion).

#31 Thessaly

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:05 PM

I really hope this is just rank 1 and it somehow scales to not completely suck. Lets see, two Swipe (Cats) on a full energy bar, or swap to Bear form for unlimited 2 target Mangle + unlimited all target Swipe...

It also builds no combo points, so the cost of 50 energy is absolutely absurd.


It looks like it's designed to be identical to Fan of Knives. The area of effect is slightly different, but aside from that it'll likely be the same. It gives us comparable trash utility to Rogues, that's all.

#32 landisthegnome

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:16 PM

It looks like it's designed to be identical to Fan of Knives. The area of effect is slightly different, but aside from that it'll likely be the same. It gives us comparable trash utility to Rogues, that's all.


i think the overall point is, why would you bother using this cat swipe when you can go into bear form, swipe forever with infinite rage, and be able to survive if you pull aggro?

#33 Rhaegal

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:25 PM

Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.


Check your numbers. It's been shown on multiple occasions that losing bonus armor for rings/trinkets/etc but gaining it from SotF will be a buff to all bears that aren't in the best +armor 25-man Naxx gear (notably , among other things), and a slight loss for them. If anything, it's exactly the opposite of what you're saying--a buff for most of us, a slight nerf for the way over-geared.
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#34 Sadirin

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:30 PM

I'm having trouble seeing that; Just which sort of equipment are you assuming that every normal bear has when the patch hits?


Flowing Cloak of Command, Enraged Feral Staff, Badge, Offerining, Amulet of Wills, Nerubian Ring, Iceforge Battle Ring in my case. 5-heroics, nothing more. Even if I would reduce the equipment to nothing from heroic instances, for example the Enraged Feral Staff with the Kirin Tor Staff of Shrouded Mysteries and the armor ring from the juwel crafter it would still be 1k to 2k armor loss.

And yes, i assume that every serious bear druid will have something like the torta neck or the ring of earthen might. I do not assume a bear druid in green "of the monkey" leather as a standard setup for heroic and raid instances.

Just an example for the most basic tanking equipment for every serious bear in LK, before the bears enter any heroic or raid instance:

Head: Headguard of Retaliation
Neck: Torta Oversized Chocker
Shoulder: Trollwoven
Back: Flowing Cloak of Command
Wrist: Drake Champion
Hand: Preserved History
Waist: Trollwoven
Leg: Mind expanding
Feet: Jormscale
Ring1: Iceforged battle ring
Ring2: earthen might
Trinket1: Badge
Trinket2: Commendation
Weapon: Shrouded Mystery

Armor pre patch (without any buffs): 29 100 Armor
Armor post patch (without any buffs): 28 400 Armor

Almost 1k with the most basic of normal tanking gear. And with every armor trinket, weapon etc it gets worse.

#35 Windchilla

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:39 PM

It looks like it's designed to be identical to Fan of Knives. The area of effect is slightly different, but aside from that it'll likely be the same. It gives us comparable trash utility to Rogues, that's all.


Only rogues have the option to spec into Blade Flurry for addiitonal mutli-target damage as well as having more than double our energy return, making for a superior set of aoe DPS tools. If anything I'll likely cat swipe twice with a 1 point SR then go bear to finish the pull.

#36 Thessaly

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 10:01 PM

Only rogues have the option to spec into Blade Flurry for addiitonal mutli-target damage as well as having more than double our energy return, making for a superior set of aoe DPS tools. If anything I'll likely cat swipe twice with a 1 point SR then go bear to finish the pull.


I'll likely do the same. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that it's a cut and paste of FoK.

#37 erragal

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 10:07 PM

"Remove Curse and Abolish Poison can now be used in Moonkin form."

Apparently blizz forgot that remove curse already could, but the abolish poison change is a huge buff to moonkin pvp (And useful for boss encounters where poison cleansing is at a premium).

#38 Celeras

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 10:16 PM

Yeah, I misunderstood that it seems. I just assumed it was something aimed at bears somehow due to Last Stand not being mentioned under warrior changes, but maybe their version already works like that (I haven't played my warrior in forever).

In that case that is buff indeed.


What am I missing here. If you have 30000 maximum health and pop SI at any time, you gain 10000 HP for 20 seconds (old). Now if you have 30000 maximum health, and pop SI when you're at 10000 HP and in threat of dieing... you gain 3000 HP(new?).

How exactly is this a buff?

And regarding SoTF addition, I don't see a reduction in armor anywhere. Is this a buff to overall bear armor, or a compensation for something else that I haven't seen yet?

#39 Adoriele

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 10:23 PM

"Remove Curse and Abolish Poison can now be used in Moonkin form."

Apparently blizz forgot that remove curse already could, but the abolish poison change is a huge buff to moonkin pvp (And useful for boss encounters where poison cleansing is at a premium).


Gigantic buff for soloing, too. Too bad I already finished Zul'Drak...

#40 Heffro

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 11:07 PM

I'm guessing the Survival Instincts is 30% of current health (current maximum health is a little confusing). Maybe it was too good with the higher bear health pools. I'm just hoping they remember it if we do get the health modifier adjusted at some point.

I highly doubt that it's current health; rather, I read it as "current maximum health" incorporating not only buffs but also debuffs, so that for example the health gained would be modified by debuffs like Power of Vesperon or whichever Utgarde Pinnacle boss it is that stacks a health-diminishing debuff. Though I can't confirm it at the moment, I suspect that Survival Instincts currently does not take into account those debuffs but in 3.0.8 it will.




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