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State of Rogues


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#21 tessarji

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 07:29 PM

I think pretty much all rogues would agree that the issues aren't related to being behind ranged dps (i.e. hunters, mages, locks) on many fights. There are a great many fights that inflict penalties to rogues either by forcing gaps in dps which ranged don't have to endure, or by causing melee dps in general to suffer disproportionate amounts of damage. It's completely non-exceptional that ranged classes should be preferred for these fights.

What concerns me is that on fights that are completely lacking these features (Patchwerk, Thaddius) rogues are still consistently placing behind these other classes. In particular Thaddius seems to me to be a situation where the movement required, very short distances from side to side, actually should favor melee dps dealers.

This is leading to a situation where in game theory terms, rogues are 'dominated' by taking larger numbers of other classes. A single rogue would only be useful in a strategic sense, to ensure efficient loot distribution and for rare gimmick fights.

Blizzard has stated (just again yesterday, in fact) that they don't see this as a problem because generally all things being equal, you will be picking from a pool of players with varying skill levels and won't really have enough choice to be able to pass on a skilled rogue for a mediocre ranged class. This is one of the most terrible balancing opinions I have ever heard expressed. Not only does it not apply at all to the top tier of raiding guilds, who certainly can and do optimize classes on a fight per fight basis, but it has an enormous trickle down effect to new players who certainly won't choose to play a class which is 'known' to be inferior in top end raiding - even if they have no chance to reach that level.

Blizzard needs to take two actions to ensure this doesn't happen. First, they need to mitigate somewhat the penalty of taking melee dps over ranged dps, in a healing resource situation. The Feint change that has been announced is an ingenious and terrific change in this vein. Second, they need to ensure that on the rare fights that melee is allowed to play to maximum efficiency, that they do come out somewhat preferred to ranged dps. This is merely a balancing consideration for the many fights (probably a majority) where rogues suffer a more extreme efficiency penalty then other classes.

#22 Lightshadow

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:07 PM

I can't speak for 25 man raids since my guild has decided to kick back in Wrath and only run 10s, but as a combat rogue I'm having no issues shelling out at least equal DPS in 10 mans or Heroics. *shrug* I suppose you could argue that the people I play with must be idiots, but we've cleared two and a half wings of naxx with seven or eight people and two-shot sartharion our first time in with seven. (And our first attempt was mainly composed of "IT'S A WALL OF LAVA? HOLY $%& that's awesome!"... we don't really like reading strats, it ruins the fun.)

At any rate, I feel like like a lot of the complaining about issues in 10 mans is based on three misconceptions:

1) The misconception that we're supposed to deal an overwhelming amount more damage than other classes. If your goal in life is to play the broken class of the week, be my guest, but I don't see any need for us to be anything more than competitive. Things like "There's no reason to bring a rogue to Naxx unless he/she is a better player of better geared than your other DPS" should elicit a /facepalm, that's the way it's supposed to be. I'd be concerned if the statement was "Despite rogue x being more talented or better geared, we still won't brim him/her"

2) The misconception that we're less survivable than other classes. There are a couple of fights in wrath for which it really sucks to be melee (mostly heroics), but we got a huge HP boost in wrath compared to many of the other DPS classes and we have more tricks for getting out of tight spots than anyone else. Having spent significant raid time as both a rogue and a healer, I can confidently assert that rogue survivability has only increased since BC, at least if you're smart and quick with your cooldowns.

3) The misconception that we bring a lot less than other DPS classes to raid. Partly I think people massively undervalue Tricks of the Trade (it lets people go nuts from the getgo, it directing wayward adds to the appropriate tank, and if you're smart about coordinating it, it can give aoers a huge boost while they're blowing cooldowns), but I think people also heavily overestimate how much other classes bring. Yes, the first person that brings a curse of elements-like effect increases the raid's damage by a ton, but every one after that doesn't. In a lot of ways the fact that so many raid buffs no longer stack was an effective buff to us because it gives the raid so much flexibility to bring the most talented players for DPS slots 4-15 rather than trying to get 4 pallies and 5 shaman and 3 warlocks, etc.

I don't mean to be an ass, but I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment above that playskill matters more than ever for rogues, and I'm loving it.

#23 Mideci

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:13 PM

I hesitate to chime in here at all, this thread is on a slippery slope. There are two fundamental questions:

(1) In this, bring the player not the buff/utility realm, rogues are pretty much "left out" of the party. There is master poisoner and savage combat, but (and please correct me if I'm wrong), these are replaced by Heart of the Crusader and/or Blood Frenzy. The majority of you are spec-ing mutilate it seems in raids that almost surely have a retribution paladin. If said retribution paladin is not destroying you on the meters over a course of a Naxx raid, well, he/she is just not good. Further, while Naxx, Malygos and Sartharion don't require much min-maxing (outside of 3-drake Sarth I'm guessing), the other classes do things rogues just can't.

Death Knights provide an incrediblly obvious -- you see it on the buff bar -- raid add in Horn of Winter. They also can do things like Death Grip the sparks on Malygos and kite on Gluth. You can do neither as a rogue. Paladin buffs are obvious. Warriors can slap on tank gear and handle adds here and there if needed. Druids can currently match (exceed?) rogue dps a lot of the time as feral, and turn into tanks, buff the raid, provide a very obvious in-combat benefit from leader of the pack, combat rez, etc. This list is somewhat old and obvious, but the rogue can provide nothing more than one or the other replaceable debuff and Tricks of the Trade, which is almost never important to the rest of the raid after the pull, but instead is used to slightly buff rogue/rogue damage.

(2) Rogue dps often plummets when there is movement. Sometimes embarrassingly so. Other melee has issues with this as well, but things like rage and runic power don't tend to cap out (and get wasted) and shamans, warrirors and death knights don't seem to have anything to the consequences of losing a cycle due to movement, having to waste energy/combo points just to refresh slice and dice, etc. Honestly, Thaddius and Heigan don't strike me as particularly troublesome vs. other melee. The point vs. ranged is obvious.

These above truths have been made more true in Wrath, but they are not particularly new. In Burning Crusade, until very very late in the expansion, it was all mitigated by the following: Well played rogues won the damage meters on most boss fights. It's quite possible to argue from a theorycrafting standpoint, even that didn't justify bringing many rogues. They required a tremendous amount of group stacking, had you had druids you could've rezzed an extra person on fights like Teron and Anetheron, and that dps gain might've been enough to justify replacing the rogue with a druid. But no matter. People drank the Kool Aid and raids had 2-3 rogues in them for their meter topping.

At this point, it's fairly reasonable to argue that any rogue "fixes" need to start with the obvious and consider the less obvious:

* On stationary tank and spank, a well-played rogue has to be meter topping. He/she is never ever going to be otherwise. If not then/when?
* In terms of raid buffs, the rogue class needs to be able to access master poisoner and savage combat and said buffs need to be considered as "required" as anything else. Rogues probably should have the equivalent of Horn of Winter or Leader of the Pack as well. These would often be duplicative. But in smaller groups, rogues would be much more useful/desirable.
* Combo points need to move to the rogue instead of the target. Nearly every other class got a gigantic change in playability either in TBC or Wrath (multi-target swipe and the other tanking changes come to mind).
* Things like fan of knives need more wholesale changes to be interesting. 50 energy is still a very rare fan of knives. The energy cost needs to be lowered to something like 20-25 energy with the damage scaling down, albeit more slowly. Rogues could then AoE. They would be the only AoE class besides holy priests at this point who have to run inside the mobs to do it, and still quite vulnerable. The energy bar would still limit rogues tremendously vs. mages, moonkin and warlocks. But if say the energy cost was halved while the damage dealt reduced by one third, the ability becomes slightly spammable.
* Heroism/bloodlust is gigantically overpowered in 5-mans, fairly gigantic in 10 mans. No other class has it. It's broken. Create some kind of equivalent for rogues (maybe with less juicy goodness, but a similar kind of boost). If you don't know what I mean by heroism/bloodlust being "broken" read the heroics thread.

Anyway, my guild doesn't min-max and I've played my rogue there for 2 years and I have a fair amount of respect in the guild. At this point, it's not the guild asking why I'm bringing my rogue, it's me asking it. I'm close enough to having an Ulduar-ready gear set that I can play the rogue should it be relevant. And we are well served to remember that the state of rogue damage in early TBC was also terrible. But it is getting old to play the "broken class". I'm leveling my druid in the meantime. The best rogue on our server already rerolled paladin. It's a data point of one, but the kind of thing that isn't without significance. We're a "day 1" server and it's the top guild. They aren't running without rogues like Nihilum pretty much was in Sunwell, but they certainly could be. How many classes is that statement true of?

#24 Leto

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:28 PM

I'll reiterate...

Even though patchwerk is a static fight, it is *not* an ideal fight to compare dps balance amongst classes, since it is so short.

Certain classes (hunters/mages for example), see much more benefit than rogues from use of their cool downs and heroism, so when a fight is really short, the percentage of the fight under such buffs is larger.

You would need a longer fight to let things even out.

Thaddius isn't a good example either because certain class abilities scale differently with the buff than others.
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#25 sephfiroth

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:30 PM

All classes suffer when there is movement.

Rage degenerates.

Runic Power degenerates as well. DK's unlike Warriors do have to maintain debuff/attack rotations to perform ideal DPS.

Ret Paladins require crits to refresh their damage buffs.

All casters have some part of their rotations that require cast time or channeling.

Rogues and Ret paladins and perhaps Feral druids have it the easiest. Every single attack in part of a normal rotation is instant cast and thus does not really suffer as much when movement is involved.

"Movement" is not a valid crutch that Rogues can fall on when our DPS slips.

#26 fnfal

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:31 PM

With the best Mutilate gear in the game you are looking at ~5200 DPS. I don't know about combat but I'd be guessing it's in the ballpark of that as well.


I'll take wws this evening with new toys (Calamity's and actual 25 man T7). I won't run known exploits on fights (HAT), especially on content as trivial as Naxx is now (and multi-drake Sarth is if we could get people on reliably thanks to holidays and finals).

In the last run I ran meters on, using Silent Crusader MH and 10 man T7. Wow Web Stats. Sorry, anonymized thanks to guild rules (except for the unfixed DK stuff, lolwws). I'm the retard rogue at 4760ish.

Since then I've picked up a substantial amount of crit (5% from fist spec - and I'm not one of the people getting the blessed bug :( ) and about 400 ap.

Using current gear, in 10s we're doing much more poorly, a recent achievement run, Wow Web Stats. Admittedly not an optimzed group with no sunders and me throwing non-imp, non-glyph EA on fights including Patch. Take away the EA penalty (and it's huge), and we'd be more competitive. I'm only 100ish over the other rogue in the raid with roughly the same gear (and who I typically outplay by a large margin), whereas normally it'd be 600-1k. I should add that I'm still many hundred below hunters.

I am working stupidly hard to get the dps I do on most fights - but I just can't catch up even blowing full consumables. Haste potion nerf hit us particularly hard, and with the lower dependence on white numbers, WF just isn't what it was after the changes.

Where I'm valuable now is threefold, my dps isn't abhorrent (versus honestly what it should be in max gear), I don't die stupidly, and I show up every night and have for far too many zones now.

I have difficulty comparing some classses to others at this point, simply because Naxx is stupidly friendly to hunters (and probably ranged, but we seem to eat the souls of ranged in our guild and they don't stay) by and large in that you can sit and plant somewhere (and pets don't fall over dead immediately on a lot of it), and loved by DPS warriors because of the huge quantities of free rage floating around as aoe/raid damage. We don't get the gimmick advantage of +9000 bleed damage on fights (and who can force a warrior to go arms or know what a feral is these days), so I end up spamming untalented, unglyphed evisc on Loatheb and other gimmicksl for pure ugly numbers. I'm also still in my Naxx learning curve, being one of the few in the guild who didn't do it at 60.

So in summary, we're not awful. We're also not scaling as well as people seem to have projected. A lot of the rogue complaints I've seen are from people still running with 'ZOMG 70, must stack hit' mentality, or who haven't played around outside reading a post or tow. I get beaten by any of the classes that Blizzard spent a substantial time on in alpha and beta, and I think personally that's where we're in trouble until a class review in a future patch. The last couple major pushes on beta got us closer than we were for months, but they just didn't go far enough.

I'm hoping for change sooner rather than later.

#27 Leto

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:35 PM

All classes suffer when there is movement.

Rage degenerates.

Runic Power degenerates as well. DK's unlike Warriors do have to maintain debuff/attack rotations to perform ideal DPS.

Ret Paladins require crits to refresh their damage buffs.

All casters have some part of their rotations that require cast time or channeling.

Rogues and Ret paladins and perhaps Feral druids have it the easiest. Every single attack in part of a normal rotation is instant cast and thus does not really suffer as much when movement is involved.

"Movement" is not a valid crutch that Rogues can fall on when our DPS slips.


I think disadvantage would be fights where the boss moves but ranged dpsers would not be required to move.

That is basically moot though because there are also fights where ranged will have to move and melee does not.

In fact, I'd say the most difficult fight in the game now favors melee, since they can dps drakes on sarth uninterrupted by flame tsunami, wihle ranged classes will have interrupt their dps while moving to avoid it.
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#28 Lord Xar

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:15 PM

And this is exactly what Blizzard wanted, as stated multiple times. We are all roughly equivalent, and what you listed is what will get you in a group. We don't NEED utility to be brought along. If your guild has too many people for their raids, your skill should get you the spot. And aside from top guilds, I doubt you or anyone has the ideal guild setup where everyone is of equal skill.


I don't agree with this. Its all about the numbers. Plain and simple. Many raids are run on a set time schedule and to be fast. If a rogue lacks survivalability, lacks useful raid buffs (ToTT is really not that useful, truth be told), and is pumping out average dps EVEN ON MOBS he/she is not gonna be taken unless they are personal friends of the raid leader. Truthful. As much as everyone here says "Its not about 'overall dps', its about BOSS dps", its not true any longer. The plain truth is, most everyone posts "overal dps/damage" and THAT IS WHAT is important. If some rogue does 200dps more on a boss, yet is a numbnuts on all the mobs... his value, in terms of 'working as a team' is reduced and that rogue is expendable. But the problem is, we can't even enterain that idea becasue even on "rogue boss fights" we are not winning. And "one" raid boss does not make a rogue top dps. That is what I don't understand. Lets say rogues finally, after some buffs, top patchwerk. So what? If a mage is tops in 7 out of 10 or a hunter or whatever.. "they" are the top dps'ers not rogues.

This whole whine about rogues and their DPS is exactly what happened when Blizzard announced DPS would be aligned in WotLK. No more, no less. It's time we got used to it, don't you all think?

No. You can't be equal in dps yet unqueal in movement, survivalability, raid buffs. That does not make any sense. DPS is one component in a slew of them. IF you make dps equal, then you must make all bosses, all buffs etc.. equal. Is that possible? No. So, aligning dps is a losers gambit.

We may need tweaked, but it certainly isn't the horror that some make it out to be. We're also not necessarily supposed to top the meters. It depends on the fights, and at the end of the day, regardless of the fight, there's nothing wrong with not being first, as long as you are fairly close to everyone else. Again, that was stated by Blizzard.


The big issue with these sorts of sentiments is an inability, and I feel many rogues exhibit this, is that they only look "at themselves" when denoting an issue. For instance, raid rogues who are in guilds and are invited along because of friendship or because they have better gear than others etc... they can't project outside themselves and say "yeah, overall rogues are lame.." They only see their position and say "things aren't that bad...". Try this. Go to LFG and whisper the rogues. Ask them how hard has it been for them to get into heroics or raids. You will find that many are having a hard time because they are being overlooked.

#29 Tinwhisker

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:28 PM

In fact, I'd say the most difficult fight in the game now favors melee, since they can dps drakes on sarth uninterrupted by flame tsunami, wihle ranged classes will have interrupt their dps while moving to avoid it.


This is all well and good but the phasing mechanic encountered in this fight (with 1+ drakes up) removes the ability to WWS it with any reliability (even combining logs). Therefore it's not well measurable and if you can't show that melee is doing well on it, then it doesn't matter if they are or not.

#30 Law

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:28 PM

I clicked on this thread expecting something totally different than what's here, but I'm going to say what I have to say anyway (I think it still is kind of relevant).

Is it just me, or is the rogue class pretty well done? I mean, other than the HaT situation, I don't see quite as many changes being applied to Rogues as a great many other classes. Correct me if I'm wrong (but nicely, I'm fragile!) but it seems to me as if Blizzard is happy with the general state of rogues, +/- a few tuning aspects.

That's not to say that we aren't a little low on the DPS meters (which is what seems to be the consensus in this thread) on certain fights, but the way Blizzard is moving, those fixes will either come in the form of small coefficient changes, or a small amount of tuning to the other classes. Pardon me, other classes, for saying this, but I kind of feel like Rogues are being used as something of a baseline.

Full Disclosure: I'm on the outside looking in here, I stopped playing 2 days after LK came out, but am I wrong?

#31 Tinwhisker

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:33 PM

Pardon me, other classes, for saying this, but I kind of feel like Rogues are being used as something of a baseline.


Ghostcrawler said as much but I believe that was largely an example and that all classes were being tuned towards some imaginary number (Rogues included).

#32 Leto

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:37 PM

If raid leaders are looking at overall dps for a raid instead of specific fights, or roles in fights, they are being shortsighted.

They should be optimizing for success, not for speed of a whole clear. If the rogue does more dps on the boss fight, he is being valuable, as success on the boss is the only variable. If you are wiping consistently to the trash, then the boss will be an even bigger hurdle.

Sure rogues may be unequal in movment, survivability, buffs, etc to some degree, but it is not major, and the differences in healing required are negligible. The only situation I can think of where this isn't the case would be on a fight to fight basis if things like more tanks are required, and only then will you see a big impact in 10 man raid makeup.


Most of the difficulty that people get pugging groups I'd imagine would be attributed to the perception of rogues (true or not), which is perpetuated by crying. I don't think I've ever seen someone turned down from a pug specifically because they were a rogue (melee dps was the closest I've seen). The case is usally a need for tanks or healers.
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#33 ShadowEric

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:41 PM

I don't agree with this. Its all about the numbers. Plain and simple. Many raids are run on a set time schedule and to be fast. If a rogue lacks survivalability, lacks useful raid buffs (ToTT is really not that useful, truth be told), and is pumping out average dps EVEN ON MOBS he/she is not gonna be taken unless they are personal friends of the raid leader. Truthful. As much as everyone here says "Its not about 'overall dps', its about BOSS dps", its not true any longer. The plain truth is, most everyone posts "overal dps/damage" and THAT IS WHAT is important. If some rogue does 200dps more on a boss, yet is a numbnuts on all the mobs... his value, in terms of 'working as a team' is reduced and that rogue is expendable. But the problem is, we can't even enterain that idea becasue even on "rogue boss fights" we are not winning. And "one" raid boss does not make a rogue top dps. That is what I don't understand. Lets say rogues finally, after some buffs, top patchwerk. So what? If a mage is tops in 7 out of 10 or a hunter or whatever.. "they" are the top dps'ers not rogues.


To which I'll reply: anyone who looks at overall DPS/Damage is a bad raid leader. Fights are different, even trash. Some favor certain classes more than others. There's a reson I always have Recount set to "Current Fight", not Overall. If your raid leader kicks your out of a raid for overall damage, you need to find a new leader.

EDIT: Leto types faster than me. :P

Second part of that quote above: you say if we get some buffs, yet a mage/hunter ends up on top 7/10 times then it hurts us? That's another example of someone not knowing how to read a damage meter. Do you only look at the #1? What if the next person is 1% behind only? I've done some runs where everyone ended up withing 5% of each other. Can you truly say some of the people in that group sucked? Of course not! Maybe they had bad luck with the RNG, who knows? This is within acceptable margins, and it's ludicrous to think rogues would need a buff if we always ended up that close to the top DPS'er, whatever class that may be.

We may need some tweaks right now, but not massive buffs, that's for sure.

No. You can't be equal in dps yet unqueal in movement, survivalability, raid buffs. That does not make any sense. DPS is one component in a slew of them. IF you make dps equal, then you must make all bosses, all buffs etc.. equal. Is that possible? No. So, aligning dps is a losers gambit.


Go tell Blizzard that. That's their reasoning, not mine. We're back to the "consider the type of fight, don't just focus on absolute damage meter numbers." They didn't balance the classes with specific types of fights in mind. You can't ask for buffs solely on the basis of movement fights.

The big issue with these sorts of sentiments is an inability, and I feel many rogues exhibit this, is that they only look "at themselves" when denoting an issue. For instance, raid rogues who are in guilds and are invited along because of friendship or because they have better gear than others etc... they can't project outside themselves and say "yeah, overall rogues are lame.." They only see their position and say "things aren't that bad...". Try this. Go to LFG and whisper the rogues. Ask them how hard has it been for them to get into heroics or raids. You will find that many are having a hard time because they are being overlooked.


I'm invited on progression runs because I can top the meter or come close. Nothing else. You're essentially saying I think things aren't that bad because I can't see what's going on outside my guild. I'm not sure the opinion of rogues in the LFG channel are necessarily reflecting the reality though. Perhaps there's a reason they're not established within a guild.

#34 Leto

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:43 PM

This is all well and good but the phasing mechanic encountered in this fight (with 1+ drakes up) removes the ability to WWS it with any reliability (even combining logs). Therefore it's not well measurable and if you can't show that melee is doing well on it, then it doesn't matter if they are or not.


Logs aren't needed to see this... it's just logic. I've observed it personally many many times in progress on Sarth with drakes up.

When flame tsunami comes, you have to move to avoid it. To minimize movement, you place ranged classes in one potential safe spot, and tank the drake in the other. Melee can dps just as effectively while moving, while range classes generally have to interrupt their casting, etc.

We would get the first drake down before portals much faster when luck gave us more waves where ranged didn't have to move.
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#35 Demi9OD

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:49 PM

Any complaints about performance on AoE pulls are pretty much irrelevant come 3.0.8. Cooldown-less Fan of Knives is extremely powerful, especially when combined with Overkill and Focused Attacks.


I'm curious how this will pan out between Assas and Combat. We'll assume we are trying to maximize AOE damage, so Assas would have two 1.8 speed daggers, and Combat a 2.6 speed fist and 1.8 speed dagger. With the 3.0.8 patch, the 1.8 speed daggers can effectively be considered 2.7 speed weapons for the purpose of FoK (or is 150% damage somehow different than 150% speed?).

Lets say an average pull has 5 mobs, and you are running with a 40% crit rate. 6 hits, 4 crits, 8 energy back from FA, thus the average cost of FoK is 50-2.5(4/5 T7)-8=39.5. The cost with Combat is 47.5. With both specs running SnD and staying on a single target, a certain amount of energy is generated through FA, or CP, and I am not sure how these stack up. Combat also has the benefit of vitality. In the end I think Combat can perform more FoK than Assas can due to vitality.

Damage modifiers; Assas has FW and Vile Poisons, while Combat has PoTW and Serrated Blades. I think these would stack up fairly evenly, but if they ever fix Instant Poison range, Assasination should win hands down with double instant, especially considering that AOE pulls are very rarely armor debuffed. Of course if there were a fight that necessitated a full burn, aoe style, nothing in assassination can compete with Adrenaline Rush FoK.

#36 Tinwhisker

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:54 PM

Logs aren't needed to see this... it's just logic. I've observed it personally many many times in progress on Sarth with drakes up.


I didn't disagree with you, I actually do agree. The point I was trying to make though is that you can't show it in a WWS which seems to be what everyone bases these comparisons on, right, wrong or otherwise.

I've not looked but I'm suspicious that those "WWS compilations" that people seem so eager to flaunt around are muddied by fights like this.

#37 sephfiroth

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:54 PM

Obsidian Sanctum and "benchmark" probably shouldnt be mentioned in the same paragraph, much less sentence.

The closest thing to a actual DPS benchmark we have is Patchwerk. Even then, it's semi-flawed.

You could slightly move too far whilst dipping, and lose some DPS. And for Warriors, the complete absence of any raid damage distorts damage. Same story for Ret Paladins, no incoming damage = no mana = less DPS. Patchwerk also favors classes that rely heavily on long duration, short cooldown buffs. IE: BM Hunters. Classes that have reliable burst but poor longevity seem to shine fairly well.

So even our "benchmark" boss is flawed in many ways.

#38 chalon

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:58 PM

WWS reports of Patchwerk kills which are well over 4 minutes aren't really useful to see really competitive numbers. I mean, the fact that someone is in the top 3 on meters with <4k DPS doesn't really say much, because it just means that overall your raid-wide DPS was very low.

Going through all of our Patchwerk parses, the highest any rogue has placed on any of our kills is 5th place. I got it once, and Wodahs got it once. Our most recent kill is: Wow Web Stats

We didn't have our best geared mage in there either, Baron is actually MM instead of BM, and we had 0 Fury Warriors in for the kill (both of whom would've easily beaten our numbers). But as you can see, myself and Wodahs both did respectable damage, yet still weren't able to compete with the people at the top. And we're even getting beaten by DKs now :(. I've gotten some upgrades since then, most notably the dagger off KT, so I expect my numbers to hit ~4.7k this week, but even with that I most likely won't be in the top 3.

#39 Vulajin

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 10:04 PM

WWS reports of Patchwerk kills which are well over 4 minutes aren't really useful to see really competitive numbers. I mean, the fact that someone is in the top 3 on meters with <4k DPS doesn't really say much, because it just means that overall your raid-wide DPS was very low.

Going through all of our Patchwerk parses, the highest any rogue has placed on any of our kills is 5th place. I got it once, and Wodahs got it once. Our most recent kill is: Wow Web Stats

We didn't have our best geared mage in there either, Baron is actually MM instead of BM, and we had 0 Fury Warriors in for the kill (both of whom would've easily beaten our numbers). But as you can see, myself and Wodahs both did respectable damage, yet still weren't able to compete with the people at the top. And we're even getting beaten by DKs now :(. I've gotten some upgrades since then, most notably the dagger off KT, so I expect my numbers to hit ~4.7k this week, but even with that I most likely won't be in the top 3.


I'm not sure what you mean by "still weren't able to compete with the people at the top." Wodahs was 9% behind Silver (and he's being seriously toned down in 3.0.8), 3.2% behind Puppies and Ephedrine, 2.7% behind Baron, and and 1.7% behind Seratha. I'd hardly call that "unable to compete." Some of Wodahs' gear isn't even optimal, and he's Combat, providing a 2% boost to all the physical DPS in the raid (not to mention coming in behind the currently theorycrafted DPS levels of Mutilate).

(edit) For that matter, your own gear is not especially fantastic and you came in only 3.3% behind Wodahs. I'm not really sure how much more you're looking for.

Yep, still a fucking idiot.


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Posted 16 December 2008 - 10:25 PM

Granted I've just started into 10 man Naxx but I've run multiple heroics with a good group of guys in my guild and I've never had a problem not being on #1 DPS. For a long time I was specced mut but slowly I got sick of hunger for blood and having to try and keep it up so often.

I have specced back to Combat and funny enough I'm doing a lot more dps consistently, which is bigger for me then doing more but only when I can keep things 100% up. I'm doing constant 2000+ dps in 5 man groups and haven't checked 10 man, I'll know tommorow once we go back in but I'm starting to see with the right gear and rotations I think combat is catching up to mut simply because for myself I always had a hard time keeping hunger for blood up 100% of the time, does this change as the gear goes up in 10 man? I'm curious to know if mut leaves combat in the dust as I get more naxx gear.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone's info here because I think it has helped me get to where I am currently, I'd be curious to see how many of you have gone from mut back to combat or if any of you are thinking about it, cause personally atleast until I get some omen of ruin's I think combat is what I will be staying at.




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