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State of Rogues


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#41 Aldriana

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 10:37 PM

So, before I get into my analysis, here are the 2 WWS that I'm primarily basing my impressions off of:

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These are the last two weeks of Naxx for my guild; I was Mutilate both weeks, and Escoffier (the other well-geared rogue in the guild) was Combat for one and Mutilate for the other.

Lets start by looking at Patchwerk. Both weeks, Escoffier and I are top 5; the only person beating either of us by a significant margin is a hunter, who will soon be nerfed. So while you might argue that this is the one fight we should consistently win and, hence, that our DPS should be bumped up by a couple hundred DPS to ensure this, it's hard to argue that we're not at least competitive.

While we're on the topic: people talking about redipping on Patchwerk are making a mistake. I don't even dip on Patchwerk anymore. Why? Simple. If you're getting topped off over the course of the fight, you're eating chain heal bounces (or whatever) that could be helping heal one of the other tanks. Never mind the fact that each time you dip you lose damage to the stat reduction. And, frankly, if I'm at 20k HP (i.e., full) and I'm getting hit, that means the tank - who was at less than 20k and thus at significant risk of dying - didn't. And me getting splattered instead of a tank is *not* a bad thing. So I'm of the opinion that as long as healers are using Chain Heal or Prayer of Mending or whatever to keep tanks up, melee DPS shouldn't be dipping.

Anyway, moving on to the other fights in the instance: I think the first thing to keep in mind is that movement, by itself, is not bad for rogues. Switching targets certainly is; but attacking a moving boss, or moving around the boss, does not cost us as much DPS as it does a ranged. We can keep autoattacking and mashing specials while running all over the place; a mage has to stop casting FFB for the duration of the move. Hence, fights with movement - i.e. Grobbulus - aren't fundamentally any worse for us. And if you look at damage done to Grobbulus, I finished 3rd one week and Escoffier was 1st the other. Now, you'd be correct in pointing out that a mage utterly worked us all over the first week, so there may be a problem there - but compared to everyone else in the raid, we're more or less okay. Similarly on Thaddius and KT, which, while they may require us to move, they don't really hurt us any more than the ranged DPS - and sure enough, I was 2nd on Thaddius both weeks, and rogues went 1-2 on KT. So I think on fights with movement but not target switching, we're still doing fine.

Now, there are some movement fights - 4 Horsemen, for instance - and some fights with AoEs (Sapphiron) that give us problems, and the rogues fall back into the pack. But that's not really unreasonable - the philosophy is that all classes contribute comparable DPS, and since we're near the top on many fights, it's totally reasonable that we're a bit behind on others. And it's not like we're getting killed on those fights, either - we're middle of the pack instead of top of the pack, but it's not like we're only above the tanks or anything.

Of course, the final sort of fight where we do somewhat poorly is fights with an AoE component - for instance, on my guild's Sarth+3 kill, I was only 6th overall on DPS. But, 1) rogue AoE is being significantly buffed, particularly for Mutilate rogues such as myself, and 2) You bring different people to do different things. Yes, the AoEers are going to have more damage. But you can't have all 15 DPS AoEing; someone has to kill the boss and drakes. And if you start looking at single-target DPS, on that same kill where I was 6th overall, you find that I was top DPS on Sarth and top 3 on 2 out of the 3 drakes. Again, my DPS was very solid... on the stuff I was assigned to kill. And the people assigned to kill different things may have done more, but comparing AoE to single target is not the fairest thing in the world.

So, ultimately, what's the point here? Well, looking through my experience, it's certainly the case that I've been a bit lower on a lot of fights than I might like, so I wouldn't be totally averse to a buff of some sort - but the key point is that it needn't be a large one. If you buffed rogue DPS by 10%, Escoffier and I would be winning close to every fight (particularly after the hunter nerfs). And that's not the stated target of balance. I think if there's going to be a buff at all - and again, I think it's a bit early to say for sure - we're talking at the couple-of-percent level at the most. We don't do well in all circumstances, but we have our job to do on most fights - kill single targets - and we're really pretty solid at it, at least in 25 mans.

#42 Guest_Ambits_*

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 10:45 PM

Yea the way I look at it right now for me as long as I'm in the top 3 and I enjoy playing my class and if I can lose a little dps and bring more buffs to the guild thats what I want to do, so thats part of my reason swapping back to combat. Right now we are a heavy melee dps guild as well.

Whats your take on the whole mut versus combat as the gear scales up? I don't know much about it yet considering our guild just now has started doing 10 man naxx and downing bosses, I'm curious to know from more of you that are in the 25 mans and getting more of the gear if the gap between mut and combat eventually gets bigger and bigger??

#43 Lord Xar

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:00 PM

If raid leaders are looking at overall dps for a raid instead of specific fights, or roles in fights, they are being shortsighted.

They should be optimizing for success, not for speed of a whole clear. If the rogue does more dps on the boss fight, he is being valuable, as success on the boss is the only variable. If you are wiping consistently to the trash, then the boss will be an even bigger hurdle.

Sure rogues may be unequal in movment, survivability, buffs, etc to some degree, but it is not major, and the differences in healing required are negligible. The only situation I can think of where this isn't the case would be on a fight to fight basis if things like more tanks are required, and only then will you see a big impact in 10 man raid makeup.


Most of the difficulty that people get pugging groups I'd imagine would be attributed to the perception of rogues (true or not), which is perpetuated by crying. I don't think I've ever seen someone turned down from a pug specifically because they were a rogue (melee dps was the closest I've seen). The case is usally a need for tanks or healers.


Well, being able to clear and manage in a timely and concise manner is important to some. Also, in my previous post we are making the assumption rogues are at the top in dps - not 5th or 4th etc.. Unfortunetly, this is not the case. So, sub-par mob dps, and sub-par boss dps. No 'real' raid buffs and even though you discount to some degree, low survivalability and low manueverability - movement fights.

Also, when I make reference to "overall dps" it is not just the raid leader. It is a whole mindset which propogates to the raid itself in how perceptions are formed and utilized. The problem we are facing is that pre-wotlk perhaps boss dps was 'the barometer', but with the advent on so much dps being thrown around by hybrids and other pure-dps classes, the meters have taken a turn. No longer is raid boss dps that important when most other dps can do it better, in most cases. We use to link our boss dps because of disparity between boss/mob dps.. whereas most other current dps now retain a very similiar dps score between the two.

So, in a nutshell. Rogues loose all around.

#44 Vulajin

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:02 PM

Would people posting in this thread kindly stop making assertions that being anywhere below first place in DPS means rogues are doomed? Parses where a rogue in sixth place did barely 5% less than people above him are not convincing, nor are parses where a rogue was dwarfed a hunter, given what we know about patch 3.0.8. This thread is going to rapidly outlive its usefulness if the only purpose it serves is for rogues to whine about not being 1st place every time.

Yep, still a fucking idiot.


#45 Aldriana

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:06 PM

Just as a note here, folks: I'm fine with this thread existing as long as it remains a constructive discussion of where we're strong, where we're weak, and the overall role of the class right now; however, if it starts getting whiny (and some of you are headed in that direction), I'm going to put a stop to it. This is your one and only warning: whines are no more permissible here than anywhere else on the forums, so don't. And if too many people start to, the thread will get closed. Just so we're clear.

#46 chalon

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:08 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by "still weren't able to compete with the people at the top." Wodahs was 9% behind Silver (and he's being seriously toned down in 3.0.8), 3.2% behind Puppies and Ephedrine, 2.7% behind Baron, and and 1.7% behind Seratha. I'd hardly call that "unable to compete." Some of Wodahs' gear isn't even optimal, and he's Combat, providing a 2% boost to all the physical DPS in the raid (not to mention coming in behind the currently theorycrafted DPS levels of Mutilate).

(edit) For that matter, your own gear is not especially fantastic and you came in only 3.3% behind Wodahs. I'm not really sure how much more you're looking for.


Sure, I'm not saying my gear is 100% the best, it isn't. But if you look at everyone else's gear in front of me, they're in the same situation. Some people are slightly better geared than others, but no one is running fully optimal gear. The hunters don't have KT guns, the warlock/DKs still have a lot of upgrades, etc. My gear will get better, but so will theirs. As the gear has been scaling though, we're still consistently falling behind.

My concern is more when everyone is optimally geared, we still will be say, 3% behind the Warlocks/Mages etc., which isn't acceptable. The DPS should be balanced such that Rogues are say, 1-2% ahead of Warlocks, Mages, and Hunters on a fight like Patchwerk, which then balances it out on the vast majority of fights where we have to chase a mob and lose DPS uptime.

I don't think we need a huge buff, but I do think we need to be improved by a couple percent.

EDIT: I would agree this thread is pretty worthless FWIW.

#47 Lord Xar

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:11 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by "still weren't able to compete with the people at the top." Wodahs was 9% behind Silver (and he's being seriously toned down in 3.0.8), 3.2% behind Puppies and Ephedrine, 2.7% behind Baron, and and 1.7% behind Seratha. I'd hardly call that "unable to compete." Some of Wodahs' gear isn't even optimal, and he's Combat, providing a 2% boost to all the physical DPS in the raid (not to mention coming in behind the currently theorycrafted DPS levels of Mutilate).

(edit) For that matter, your own gear is not especially fantastic and you came in only 3.3% behind Wodahs. I'm not really sure how much more you're looking for.


I am rather confused here. Rogues are suppose to be strongest in single target dps. Chalon mentioned the warriors were not included, and they would have beaten them, yet - the rogues are not tops. Mind you, I understand you brought up issue with their gear, but we can't say anything about gear or its impact unless we know what the gear level of those who are beating the rogues.

To say someone's gear is lacking in context of unknown variables isn't very useful. I think we'd need lvl or tier breakdown of such to make reasonable assumptions.

The gradients of "being behind" is coloring to try and remove issue. Rogues are behind. Simple.

This thread is going to rapidly outlive its usefulness if the only purpose it serves is for rogues to whine about not being 1st place every time.


Ok. point taken. Show me parses of raids where rogues are 1st once with similiar geared and varied groups. All things being equal, please someone supply the reports that show a rogue in the number one position once, or perhaps twice. The QQ'ing is not about being first every single time, its about being first or second at least once.

#48 Almehym

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:20 PM

WWS reports can be very easily misleading. Were the rogues in question in possession of all the dps-increasing buffs available? What about the casters? Then we have to look at the gear.

Blizzard has, to my knowledge, never said anything about rogues needing to be number one on stationary fights. We don't necessarily lose DPS on movement fights anyway, for reasons stated above, while casters may.

All the pure dps classes being within 4-5% of each other says a lot about what Blizzard has done for balance already. This thread does nothing to help other rogues understand their class better; all I can see it doing is sloughing off all the anecdotal, whining posts that would be found in other threads and instead having them posted here.

#49 chalon

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:26 PM

WWS reports can be very easily misleading. Were the rogues in question in possession of all the dps-increasing buffs available? What about the casters? Then we have to look at the gear.

Blizzard has, to my knowledge, never said anything about rogues needing to be number one on stationary fights. We don't necessarily lose DPS on movement fights anyway, for reasons stated above, while casters may.

All the pure dps classes being within 4-5% of each other says a lot about what Blizzard has done for balance already. This thread does nothing to help other rogues understand their class better; all I can see it doing is sloughing off all the anecdotal, whining posts that would be found in other threads and instead having them posted here.


Actually, they have specifically said this:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounters

If you balance rogues, hunters, locks and mages to all do the same dps on target dummies, then what you find in a raid is that the ranged dps comes out on top because the rogue has to spend a lot of potential dps time on positioning and running out of fires. This isn't true of every encounter, but it is true of a lot. (If there is an encounter where a rogue should shine, it's something like Patchwerk.) So rogue dps on a combat dummy probably needs to be higher so that net dps in a raid is about the same as other classes. Make sense?



#50 Almehym

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:41 PM

Hmm, I read that blue post, but I must have completely forgotten about it. Regardless, individual WWS reports are still highly subjective. For each individual report, you would need to compare every physical and magical buff/debuff in the raid (remembering that we get dps increases through poisons from magic dps buffs as well). Even then, and especially on modern Patchwerk, I'd say it's very difficult, if not bordering on foolishness, to try to make generalizations about the 'State of Rogues' from these reports.

Blizzard has also stated that they are looking into rogue PvE dps and keeping an eye on things. I agree with Aldriana in that if anything, a couple or a few percent of dps more might be warranted; however, this thread does nothing to narrow down either why we are behind other classes nor what might be done to alleviate this problem.

#51 Guest_Amerilina_*

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:45 PM

I really don't think this is a great place for this type of topic. If I want to read QQ about rogue DPS I would go to blizzards forums. That Being said.

I honestly do not think rogues are that far off. Hunters are being tweaked like others have already stated, so there is one thing that helps. I would also factor in that Patchwork is Undead, so murder does not apply. If you adjust most of those WWS adding in Murder Rogues are looking pretty good. If they buff us now wait till we hit another Patchwork type fight where Murder is in effect and I am sure the cries of Rogues are OP will ring out.

In all honesty how many of these people in the parser are playing there class to the max? I know I do not take advantage of Tricks of the Trade.

Rogue are not in a terrible state, could they use a little polishing? Yes probably, but do we need an overhaul no.

#52 Aldriana

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:51 PM

Additional clarification: complaining that the thread isn't about a particularly useful topic isn't really helping the discussion either.

I'm letting this conversation live for the moment because I think there's a reasonable discussion to be had about the strengths and weaknesses of rogue DPS - what sorts of things we do well, and what sorts of things we don't. That sort of information is useful to us, and it's useful to raid leaders. If people aren't up to having that discussion, so be it - I'll close the thread. But I'd like to at least give people a chance.

#53 Inkm

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:53 PM

I have a feeling quite a few of us might be suffering from the "we aren't that badly geared, look it's epic!" syndrome due to the easily accessible heroics and badge gear that's in the game at the moment.

As in, a fully geared T7,5 rogue should have, at least, the potential to truly shine if played correctly and all experience has shown that we do scale very well with gear.

I also have a feeling of deja vu; Rogue DPS is horrible in Karazhan! Buff! Nerf casters! and so on.

It's a bit worrying that we where scaled in beta with a buggy Master Poisoner, but we'll see how all that pans out.

#54 Vulajin

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 11:56 PM

The gradients of "being behind" is coloring to try and remove issue. Rogues are behind. Simple.

Ok. point taken. Show me parses of raids where rogues are 1st once with similiar geared and varied groups. All things being equal, please someone supply the reports that show a rogue in the number one position once, or perhaps twice. The QQ'ing is not about being first every single time, its about being first or second at least once.


The amount by which we're behind is extremely important. Saying otherwise is just willfully ignoring the truth so you can generate pity. As for the second paragraph, I believe Aldriana has two parses linked in another thread on this very forum that demonstrate rogues coming out on top.

(edit) It was actually in this exact thread:

Wow Web Stats

Yep, still a fucking idiot.


#55 chalon

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:24 AM

I don't want to pick apart that parse, but I do think it bears noting that while yes, the Rogues did good DPS in that parse, several of the other classes are not performing anywhere near their potential. This may be due to gear or buffs or who knows what, but those parses by themselves don't really prove much. It's also probably relevant that both rogues have markedly better gear than the Warlocks (Aldriana moreso) yet are not very much ahead in damage done.

Anyways, back to the specific topic...

The best fight for Mutilate in Naxx is without a doubt Maexxna. First of all, we get the murder bonus, and second of all, it's one of the few fights where there's AE that FoK actually ends up being really good. The spiders die so quickly so the fact that you can't use it very often doesn't hurt. I sadly don't have a parse for our Maexxna kill this week, but I was in first place pretty handily. Now, to be fair our hunters were on wall duty, so that obviously affects the DPS, but I'm still fairly confident I'd be able to beat them on that particular fight.

I wonder if part of the "fix" for rogue DPS in Ulduar will simply be that most bosses will be murderable (I'd imagine it has a lot of Humanoids and Giants). But, that's bad news for the people running Combat.

Regarding the FoK change, to be honest I think it will have minimal affect on our overall placement in trash DPS. Yes it's certainly a buff, but outside of getting 3-4 Overkill FoKs off at the start, we're still going to be limited to 1 every 5s and only if all else we're doing is auto attacking. We'll do more trash damage without a doubt, but we will still be behind those who can AE continuously.

#56 Aldriana

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:36 AM

On your first point: the damage of the other two rogues strikes me as a bit less relevant - neither raided as a rogue in TBC. They're both reroll/trials, and thus have a bit less gear and a lot less experience with the class. That's why I focused on myself and Escoffier for purposes of analysis.

On the gear point: yes, we're pretty well geared, but it's worth noting that some of what we're wearing we've picked up since those parses; I didn't have the Maly chest, quest neck, or T7.25 legs until after both parses, and the first one I was using T6 belt + boots still. And, for instance, Escoffier picked up Webbed Death this past week, meaning that his mutilate parse was done with a Paper Cutter. So yes, there's a gear factor... but it's not as large as you might think.

And again, I'm not arguing that the class is necessarily totally without problems - simply that we can and do compete at the top levels on single target fights - our forte - and the fact that we fall behind on certain fights is not by itself a cause for concern.

Re: AoE. With Focused Attacks, whenever we AoE a large pack we will get nontrivial energy regeneration; with a 40% crit rate and AoEing 10 targets, we regenerate 16 energy per FoK, hence we'll be able to FoK once every 3.4 seconds. And more than that with Overkill up, and we can toss in a CB to get even more regen. Like, I don't think we're going to have damage matching a true AoE class, but it's starting to look distinctly viable - particularly on larger packs.

#57 Law

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:42 AM

Again, forgive me for being a little "out of the loop" about all this, but is Rogue DPS being accurately predicted by the spreadsheets right now (within 5% or so, or within reason... clearly a rogue can't perform in fights where movement/range is a problem)? If not, then I'd say it's a little harder to dismiss rogues as being "behind" than if the WWS parses were meeting the theoretical maximum. Maybe (incoming blasphemy) it's easy to be a mediocre rogue, but incredibly hard to be the rogue that Blizzard expects? If so, that's a problem, I'd think.

But I don't know if that's the case. I just don't like running straight to the, "this isn't our fault" shelter after getting 3rd in meters on Patchwerk or something. But that's just me :-/

#58 fnfal

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:49 AM

Re: AoE. With Focused Attacks, whenever we AoE a large pack we will get nontrivial energy


And yet they took that away from potency. I am mystified sometimes at the reasoning behind their choices.

#59 chalon

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 12:55 AM

On your first point: the damage of the other two rogues strikes me as a bit less relevant - neither raided as a rogue in TBC. They're both reroll/trials, and thus have a bit less gear and a lot less experience with the class. That's why I focused on myself and Escoffier for purposes of analysis.


Well, I didn't mean the other rogues. What I meant was, for instance what is your Hunter doing? The best Mage in your guild (Magekg afaik!) isn't on the kill, and I'd wonder where he'd place. The top Warlock should probably be doing more damage. You don't have any Fury Warriors in the kill. I'm not sure what your DPS DK is doing etc. Don't get me wrong, you and Escoffier are doing solid damage, but this sort of proves the problem with WWS. In either direction, you are never going to get an equally skilled/geared control case where you can definitively say "yes we are behind" or "no we are fine" when it's a difference of maybe 3%.

Taking into account all the changes in 3.0.8, I suspect we are still fairly consistently going to be 2-3% behind Warlocks, Mages, Hunters, and Fury Warriors on a fight like Patchwerk. And while it seems like a small percent, I personally don't feel that's acceptible. We should be 1-2% ahead on this particular fight.

Again, forgive me for being a little "out of the loop" about all this, but is Rogue DPS being accurately predicted by the spreadsheets right now (within 5% or so, or within reason... clearly a rogue can't perform in fights where movement/range is a problem)? If not, then I'd say it's a little harder to dismiss rogues as being "behind" than if the WWS parses were meeting the theoretical maximum. Maybe (incoming blasphemy) it's easy to be a mediocre rogue, but incredibly hard to be the rogue that Blizzard expects? If so, that's a problem, I'd think.


Anecdotally, I can tell you that my DPS aligns fairly well with the "spreadsheet" DPS on something like Patchwerk, +/- 2% generally I would say, which is fairly accurate. It's not a matter of not being able to perform at the theoretical maximum.

#60 Shivawn

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 01:13 AM

I have a feeling quite a few of us might be suffering from the "we aren't that badly geared, look it's epic!" syndrome due to the easily accessible heroics and badge gear that's in the game at the moment.

As in, a fully geared T7,5 rogue should have, at least, the potential to truly shine if played correctly and all experience has shown that we do scale very well with gear.

I also have a feeling of deja vu; Rogue DPS is horrible in Karazhan! Buff! Nerf casters! and so on.

It's a bit worrying that we where scaled in beta with a buggy Master Poisoner, but we'll see how all that pans out.



While I understand your sentiment about not jumping to conclusions, since this expansion DID just come out a month ago, but I think many of us are restless in the fact that we're not preforming as well as we did in Pre-TBC days. Given, we were far and beyond better than we probably should of been, but our dominance in dps was demonstrated from the get-go.

In TBC, until rogues got their hands on Glaives, we didn't see our dps flourish that much. In T5 content, I suffered behind Fury warriors wielding Arena gear (a separate issue, however the demonstration of lagging behind such classes his still constant even now), as well as warlocks that spec destro and know how to hit the Shadowbolt key over and over again. We shouldn't have to STACK gear to become the best dps'ing class in the game, it should be more or less INNATE similar to what classic WoW was like.

That doesn't mean that:

1. Rogues should always top the meters
2. A well played character of ANY class shouldn't be able to beat a dumb or sloppy rogue
3. Rogues shouldn't have to get any gear, just run around with blues and win all the time.

However, I think the class as a whole needs a talent bump or some kind of mechanic changed (I'm looking at you Glancing Blows) that make us more competitive with less stress put upon gear.

I'm rather geared out for a 10 man raid rogue, and I'm still falling behind with a Boomkin in raid. Perhaps I'm not preforming at the top of my game and he really is just a very good player, but he's taunted me many times 'I'm spamming wrath, lol'. Not in a vindictive way, but just showing the futility of complaining about HaT when other classes are doing the exact same thing, or have in the past: They're pushing one button and winning.

No that's not fair, and I'm not condoning the usage of HaT (bugged form), but rather I'm just frustrated overall that while we could say 'don't spec this, because it's basically cheating and has no skill behind it', what is saying that other classes aren't doing the same thing, but it's intended? Yes, Boomkins and Warlocks don't press one button anymore, but some still do, and they still can be a rogue should their gear line up.

I dunno, I just got a KT claw so perhaps my dps will spike back up to the forefront, and maybe the changes to Fan of Knives will provide us enough AE to keep up, but in cases like Patchwerk, where we're suppose to be the primo choice for dps, and we're falling behind Mages, Warlocks, and Warriors. No matter how you slice it, that's just not fair to our class as a whole. While raid leaders don't say 'we don't need rogues, what's the point in bringing them', I personally feel, 'Why the hell should I take up a raid slot when someone can be placed in my spot that can do 105% of my damage, with less than half the problems with survivability related to melee ranged abilities?'




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