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WotLK Gem Index


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#21 SilentSnake578

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:01 AM

I've just quickly looked over this thread after re-gemming some of my green gems and replacing them with blues.

Were the Armor Penetration gems (, ) worth me replacing the AP/Stam ones and Agi/Stam?

I'm up to 178 Armor Penetration (11.76% armor avoided, according to stat window) right now, and I can bump it an additional 40 with the Armor Penetration food buff. I have noticed that my hits have been bigger (clothies just crumble before me) but is it worth the loss of additional crit (from Agi) and AP?

At the moment I'm BM 50/21, I used to go Survival for 10 mans (meaning Agi benefits me a little more than just raw AP as that spec) but I think my 10 man group can survive without my Replenishment now which means I can focus on BM.

On that note, would my pet benefit more from the Agi/AP gems as opposed to Armor Penetration?

#22 Faerdael

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:28 AM

Since Blizzard mysteriously decided to make ArP a red stat (and an expensive one at that), and with the change to ArP being a flat percentage reduction (and post -armor debuffs), it is really not viable to gem it. The way ArP worked in TBC, this might have been different, since it effectively scaled on itself, but alas . . . In fact, it is actually going to give you more bang for the buck against higher armored targets than those clothies now, and even decreases in value once Sunders and Farie Fire goes up.

Agility/AP are the best stats you have to gem for your respective spec; ArP simply doesn't compete. You can check that against the spreadsheet, but you are going to be hard-pressed to find any gear situation where ArP can come out ahead. Your pet receives none of that ArP.

Edit: This is now not an accurate comment for many with marksman specs, since 3.1 and past. (original post revised)

#23 SilentSnake578

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:38 AM

I guessed that on the Pet ArP one, didn't see the stat listed under the pet window.

I guess I'll regem +Agi, in the event I get ninja'd into respeccing Survival again.

#24 Garby

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:51 AM

I've just quickly looked over this thread after re-gemming some of my green gems and replacing them with blues.

Were the Armor Penetration gems (, ) worth me replacing the AP/Stam ones and Agi/Stam?

I'm up to 178 Armor Penetration (11.76% armor avoided, according to stat window) right now, and I can bump it an additional 40 with the Armor Penetration food buff. I have noticed that my hits have been bigger (clothies just crumble before me) but is it worth the loss of additional crit (from Agi) and AP?

At the moment I'm BM 50/21, I used to go Survival for 10 mans (meaning Agi benefits me a little more than just raw AP as that spec) but I think my 10 man group can survive without my Replenishment now which means I can focus on BM.

On that note, would my pet benefit more from the Agi/AP gems as opposed to Armor Penetration?

These are all questions you should answer for yourself with the spreadsheet.

#25 SilentSnake578

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:59 AM

I think it was MaxDPS that suggested I use ArP. (What a mistake that was)

The spreadsheet was defaulted to Agi I believe, but whilst I was testing that out I found that Marksman did more self buffed DPS than BM.. which I know isn't true because I've seen my 25 man Marksman and BM DPS meters and BM is ahead by a mile. So that's not telling me much.

I think it's just user error in the spreadsheet itself (I'm thinking in the 'rotation' section), but you'd think the thread labeled "WotLK Gem Index" would be the place for gem-related questions (such as 'was gemming ArP a good decision')?

#26 Garby

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:13 AM

I think it was MaxDPS that suggested I use ArP. (What a mistake that was)

The spreadsheet was defaulted to Agi I believe, but whilst I was testing that out I found that Marksman did more self buffed DPS than BM.. which I know isn't true because I've seen my 25 man Marksman and BM DPS meters and BM is ahead by a mile. So that's not telling me much.

I think it's just user error in the spreadsheet itself (I'm thinking in the 'rotation' section), but you'd think the thread labeled "WotLK Gem Index" would be the place for gem-related questions (such as 'was gemming ArP a good decision')?

Yes, using MaxDPS for anything at all is a mistake.

Plus, common sense says gemming ArP is bad for all the reasons Faerdael laid out.

Edit: I also just noticed this phrase:

I found that Marksman did more self buffed DPS than BM.. which I know isn't true because I've seen my 25 man Marksman and BM DPS meters and BM is ahead by a mile. So that's not telling me much.


You are not self buffed in a 25 man raid.

#27 SilentSnake578

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:23 AM

1) Yes, using MaxDPS for anything at all is a mistake.
2) Threads don't exist to tell you answers to questions that the spreadsheet will empirically evaluate based on your gear, talents, and glyphs better than we could anyway.

Plus, common sense says gemming ArP is bad for all the reasons Faerdael laid out.


Spreadsheet also assumes that I've got enough knowledge in complex calculations to tell me how to gem (which I mentioned earlier, it defaulted to Agi)

I use the handy 'plug-in my gear' feature, try to guess my rotation, and see if the numbers match up with what I see on recount on a target dummy. I don't use the spreadsheet as my holy grail of information, I'm using it as an additional reference (just like the EJ Forums here and MaxDPS).

But again since ArP was not listed in the original post and me (being the observant person I am) asked a question about ArP gems and I got my reply.
Now I'm sitting here typing a defense against why I'm not asking MS Excel questions about ArP.

edit:

You are not self buffed in a 25 man raid.


Obvious statement of the century. If my solo self buffed DPS is higher in Marksman than it is in BM, logically I would think my Marks DPS would be that much higher when you add Kings, Might, Leader of the Pack, etc. For whatever reason, BM seems to be scaling better with buffs or at least with my gear availability (not to mention the apparent Chimera bugs I've been having with it; getting parried, half the shot being resisted, etc). In addition, I don't feel like using 25 mans as my testing ground for new specs (I'm pretty sure that would tick a few officers off), so until they come up with some sort of raid DPS simulation area where I can slap on full raid buffs and beat up a target dummy, self buffed DPS is all I have to test on.

#28 danglebombs

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 05:19 PM

Obvious statement of the century. If my solo self buffed DPS is higher in Marksman than it is in BM, logically I would think my Marks DPS would be that much higher when you add Kings, Might, Leader of the Pack, etc. For whatever reason, BM seems to be scaling better with buffs or at least with my gear availability (not to mention the apparent Chimera bugs I've been having with it; getting parried, half the shot being resisted, etc). In addition, I don't feel like using 25 mans as my testing ground for new specs (I'm pretty sure that would tick a few officers off), so until they come up with some sort of raid DPS simulation area where I can slap on full raid buffs and beat up a target dummy, self buffed DPS is all I have to test on.


That would be all fine and good in your logic except the BM's pet benefits more from the raid buffs as well which would leap frog him ahead.

#29 Garby

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:32 PM

In addition, I don't feel like using 25 mans as my testing ground for new specs (I'm pretty sure that would tick a few officers off), so until they come up with some sort of raid DPS simulation area where I can slap on full raid buffs and beat up a target dummy, self buffed DPS is all I have to test on.

Then use common sense. If the first post in the gem thread, which spells out the phrase gem prioritization, and the spreadsheet, (which is, by the way, as close to a Holy Grail as you are going to get), both do not breathe a word about Armor Penetration, what's the better assumption: that somehow, it slipped under the collective Elitist Jerks radar... or that it's shit?

#30 SilentSnake578

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 10:56 PM

Then use common sense. If the first post in the gem thread, which spells out the phrase gem prioritization, and the spreadsheet, (which is, by the way, as close to a Holy Grail as you are going to get), both do not breathe a word about Armor Penetration, what's the better assumption: that somehow, it slipped under the collective Elitist Jerks radar... or that it's shit?


I've just quickly looked over this thread


Big hint here.

Since I didn't see it (and it wasn't even MENTIONED, even as "this gem cut is shit never use it") I asked a question about it.

Stop trolling here and drop it.

Aren't forums a place for discussion and questions? If not it would be a guide (or at least locked to prevent questions and such).

Edit:

Now I'm sitting here typing a defense against why I'm not asking MS Excel questions about ArP.



#31 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 09:03 PM

Big hint here.

Since I didn't see it (and it wasn't even MENTIONED, even as "this gem cut is shit never use it") I asked a question about it.

Stop trolling here and drop it.

Aren't forums a place for discussion and questions? If not it would be a guide (or at least locked to prevent questions and such).

Edit:


Spirit gems aren't mentioned here either, and that doesn't mean they are worth asking about. The first post says that it is a list of gems you should prioritize. It pretty clearly lays out what it is intended to do, and what was not considered at all (i.e., intellect gems). Anything that is not on the list adds less dps than something that is on the list, as per the spreadsheet, with the exception of INT gems and their variations. So even if you don't know how to use the spreadsheet, the first post summarizes what you would get from it if you did.

Obviously there are reasons to use armor pen gems (like if you literally had no other option available), but for a list that purports to give the best option for each slot, you won't see mention of things like that.

#32 RDarkfire

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 06:27 PM

at rougly 5% haste you'll be able to fit 5 steadies in between chimera shots, and until you are fully hastecapped that gives better dps than delaying chimera for an extra steadyshot.

(that is, if I'm not mistaken, I haven't been MM since well before 3.0)


Curious, I wonder if it is worth using quick/deft gems in order to reach the haste softcap of 523 haste rating, and/or eat haste-food instead of AGI food while you are still under that value?

From a sheer DPS perspective, in MM spec using Wild Quiver which would theoretically scale off of your autoshot speed, what wins?

#33 Æthien

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:02 PM

That you would have to check for yourself on the spreadsheet I'm afraid.
As I haven't been MM for a long time (or SV for that matter), I really have no hands on experience with not having steady shots at 1.5 seconds.

#34 King-Slide

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:59 AM

That isn't easy atm. There are some problems with the calculation of the haste cap in the SS.

#35 Faerdael

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 05:27 PM

I've revised the original post to reflect 3.0.8 changes. Red priorities remain unchanged; in other words, AP for BM, Agility for Surv and varying results for MM (ie. use the spreadsheet!). Pretty much the only significant change is haste. Previously haste was showing probably the best yellow damage stat for MM/Surv until you had 1.5s steadies.

If you had to choose between haste and crit, what would you go with. I've been strictly viewing this specific issue at a spreadsheet level (no live testing), but it seems that crit always wins over equal values of haste now. The way I approached this was by using DPS results on paper via the "Use Rotation Test results instead of frequencies" option, which seems to be a more fair assesment of the "fit more steadies in-between chimera/ExS" pro-haste position.

Starting from 0 haste and 0 haste buffs and no IAoTH procs (Rotation Test doesn't include procs), Haste loses to Crit by a fairly wide margin now in a Standard rotation: ExS>Kill Shot>Serpent>Rapid Fire>Aimed>Steady (Surv) / Chimera>Kill Shot>Serpent>Rapid Fire>Readiness>Arcane >Aimed>Steady (MM).

The difference between crit and haste, of course, decreases as you decrease the number of instants. The breaking point for me seemed to be at flat Chimera>Steady (which no one should be limited to using now); at that point haste was ahead but as soon as you added Rapid Fire (or an IAoTH proc, presumably), Crit was back on top.

All in all, I was seeing an average of (very)roughly .4 dps increase per point of crit rating, vs .25 dps increase per point of haste rating in my existing gear (minus my haste rating) unbuffed. That was about as pro-haste a setup as I could get, and crit was the pretty clear winner. That being said, I've gone ahead and taken haste gems off of the original post. Anything I've looked at for haste right now has been stictly on paper, so if anyone comes up with any counter, by all means call me out.

As a couple of side notes, I've personally used this list several times as a reference when working with the spreadsheet and part of me wants to keep those there for reference (scrolling through a combo box for 10 minutes to find the gem I was looking for was my primary inspiration here), although some people may get the idea that they should actually use those gems. If you think we should leave those cuts on the list for reference, send me a pm or something, otherwise haste is out. Also, do we have a in-game yet?

#36 lumadar

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:08 PM

For a SV hunter under hit cap would [Glinting Monarch Topaz] be a better call than the [Rigid Autumn's Glow] ?

#37 Fierra

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:30 PM

For a SV hunter under hit cap would [Glinting Monarch Topaz] be a better call than the [Rigid Autumn's Glow] ?


That depends on your spec, how under the hit cap you are, your crit, and a variety of other factors. For best results, compare relative dps on the hunter spreadsheet available for download here in the hunter forums.

#38 Faerdael

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 07:33 PM

For a SV hunter under hit cap would be a better call than the ?


Both are included here. The Glinting is listed under the orange gems. Like Fierra says, the spreadsheet will give you more detailed answers, but I'll say a couple of things.

Applicable hit rating will (always)give you better results than Agility. Otherwise we would say a Glinting is outright better than a Rigid, but then we would also have to say that a Delicate is outright better than a Glinting, and that all Survival hunters should carpet gem all Delicates (+enchanted tear for the meta), which isnt the case (at least not since raid wide expose weakness left town). This is in fact how I am gemmed at the moment, but only because I am hit capped

If you are 14-15 hit rating short, a Rigid will give you a better number on average than a glinting; its probably even better at 12-13 hit rating short due to the way pet hit % rounds down to the next lowest whole number (even as survival).

#39 Iroared

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:34 PM

I always wondered if its really a good idea to put +16 agi gems in all slots (after activating meta and reaching hit cap). Let's say you have a yellow slot, and instead of using +16 agi you put +8 agi/+8 crit there. The difference is small and by putting in a correct gem you get socket bonus, which easily covers the difference.
But what should I do with blue slots?

Also, stupid question, if meta requires a blue and a yellow gem, can I satisfy both requirements by using a single green gem?

#40 Zeel

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:58 PM

Also, stupid question, if meta requires a blue and a yellow gem, can I satisfy both requirements by using a single green gem?


yes you can

edit: I suppose you also noticed Enchanted Tear that might solve many problems with a single gem




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