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Raids & Healing in 3.0 (as a priest)


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#41 constantius

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 04:37 PM

We use CoH mainly because ... well, it's cheap, it's effective, and it's something to do. We can't effectively compete on tank healing (esp. trash, but also bosses) when paladins can spam HL for more healing and less mana cost. So we raid heal, and CoH is the premiere raid healing tool in the game until the nerf hits.

I just wish they'd gone to *anything* but a cooldown-based nerf. Watching a 6 second and 7 second cooldown is going to be exceptionally annoying. With Renew in its current state, it's basically going to be a set cycle: CoH, PoM, Flash, <gcd-ish for whatever you want, including another Flash, or a GHeal, or just standing>, rinse, repeat.

They could have solved the problem by doubling the healing and doubling the mana cost. It'd be a lot less spammable if it cost 2x as much mana, but if it healed for twice as much (or 1.5x, or something 'balanced'), we wouldn't *need* to spam it as much. The biggest issue with the nerf is that they're basically saying "bad priest, you can't use CoH that much ... but no, we're not really giving you a new alternative, or giving you any reason you *should* cast something else, just nerfing it and leaving it at that".

Fix Renew and nerf CoH in the same patch, and then we're talking. Fix Divine Hymn and nerf CoH in the same patch, and then we're talking. Change Divine Providence to something more useful and nerf CoH in the same patch, and then we're talking. <insert your favourite example here>

Basically, it's a hamhanded way to fix a problem that we all admit existed, but disagreed as to the severity of. Yes, priests were topping the meters. So what? Paladins are coming very close, and they just got a huge buff with the "HL splash" radius going up to 20 yards; and they are still infinite-mana-spam-bots. Rather than nerfing priests, they should have just buffed shamans and to a lesser extent, druids. If you want to make CoH less attractive, provide alternatives that do the same (or a better) job, don't nerf the spell and expect things to magically improve. If we end up with a 7-second WG / 6-second CoH, CHeal becomes more useful for consistent damage (again), and we return to the land of Twin Eredars, where stacking resto shamans made the fight trivial. Either they're going to have to design fights around this (i.e. no more heavy raid-stacked RSTS damage ever again), or in 6 months they're going to have to buff druids/priests or nerf shamans ... again. Not very intelligent design, basically.
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#42 Sinndir

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 07:06 PM

-snip-
Agree with this. It seems cheap, but at the same time how are you supposed to make an instant-cast auto-targeting heal less attractive? It had a crappier coefficient and as a priest it was a very disappointing spell for a lot of TBC due to this. This may not be as big an issue now that it auto-targets across groups, however.


Trouble, I think they should have put an 'arcane blast' like debuff on the priest where each subsequent CoH had a certain type of effect:
  • Higher Mana Cost - First CoH is 100% cost, second is 150 or 200%, third is 200% or 300% or however high you want to scale it.
  • Less Healing done - First CoH is 100%, second is 75%, third is 50%, fourth is 25%, fifth is 0% (or you could go 100%, 67%, 33%, 0%)

The cooldown was just a poor idea, and I think will only present future problems :(

[edit] Reduce Divine Hymn to a 30 second cooldown (or a minute) and oh yeah, now we're talking.

#43 Trouble

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 07:10 PM

Trouble, I think they should have put an 'arcane blast' like debuff on the priest where each subsequent CoH had a certain type of effect:

  • Higher Mana Cost - First CoH is 100% cost, second is 150 or 200%, third is 200% or 300% or however high you want to scale it.
  • Less Healing done - First CoH is 100%, second is 75%, third is 50%, fourth is 25%, fifth is 0% (or you could go 100%, 67%, 33%, 0%)


That's actually a really cool idea. I hadn't thought of it, but it makes a lot of sense and adds a good deal of strategy to using CoH. I'm definitely not a fan of a straight cooldown and agree with Nidaba that it's hamfisted. This idea is very elegant in that it limits the spam of CoH while adding tactical decisions to its usage.

#44 Sinndir

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 08:31 PM

That's actually a really cool idea. I hadn't thought of it, but it makes a lot of sense and adds a good deal of strategy to using CoH. I'm definitely not a fan of a straight cooldown and agree with Nidaba that it's hamfisted. This idea is very elegant in that it limits the spam of CoH while adding tactical decisions to its usage.


There were tons of ideas floating around, but I guess none that really caught the eye. Also, from a programming standpoint I assume they wanted a mechanic that was already in-game that wouldn't require an awful lot of work, thus slapping a cooldown was the easiest. I saw suggestions of putting a weakened soul liked debuff on people who had recently been CoH'd that reduced the healing effectiveness of subsequent CoH's on them by X, 2X etc. percerntages, or perhaps even disallowed them from being targeted by CoH again for 3-6 seconds.

But whatever, it is going to happen we as priests are just going to have to deal. But between two cooldowns (CoH & PoM) we're going to be scrambling to get in 2-3 flash heals and that will be the most we can do as renew is completely worthless in a 25-man setting.

#45 Imua

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 09:07 PM

Somehow the double mana and double healing makes all the sense in the world to me. Why bother with a mechanic change? Just change the cost of the spell!

#46 Malorum

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 10:23 PM

I think the biggest issue in the long run is how to alleviate the old Shaman stacking issue of old with these nerfs. Somehow Chain Heal has to be balanced out with other viable healing alternatives from other classes.

Anyway. Badges suck, bring back 40 mans.


#47 constantius

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 01:59 AM

One big problem I have with the introduction of more cooldowns is that healers should *not* be cooldown-based classes. It works for dps classes because they have rotations; you basically hit the boss with your abilities, and if you have a big-damage-long-cooldown-nuke, you can mix it in with your rotation for more damage. Elemental shamans can use Lava Burst on a cooldown. Hunters can use Kill Shot (sub-35%). Rogues have a built-in cooldown system with combo points. Etc, etc..

But when you look at healers, almost all of our cooldown abilities are "oh shit" buttons. Not all, obviously, but most. Paladins get Holy Shock: it's not really something you use in a single-target rotation as much as a secondary heal. Shamans have Riptide. Priests have PW:S / PoM. Druids have Swiftmend.

But to move a primary heal, something you use a *lot*, to a cooldown, is just generally a stupid idea. We don't watch cooldowns and do set rotations. That's not how healing works. It's not dps, and someone forgot that when implementing this change. Pity.

(this thought occurred to me while reading the above ~ 10 posts, hence the continuation of the topic)
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#48 Starfire

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:06 AM

So, how do you guys handle mana on Malygos? Malygos is currently the one fight where I actually run out of mana. I can usually survive through phase 1 fairly well and enter phase 2 with full mana. But phase 2 is seemingly brutal. As far as I can grasp, healing needs to be done NOW and as soon as possible. Any person getting hit twice in a row seems to be dead, there.

I've cleared the fight multiple times, I just feel I am doing it rather sloppily.

My approach for Phase 1 is to only use CoH after vortex. I find often I won't hit all 6 targets during vortex, so I use PoM exclusively, with Renew and Power Word: Shield for emergencies. Otherwise, I rarely heal. I let my druids top off the raid after Arcane Breaths and I let my Shaman keep the tank up. I will of course throw Flash Heals if someone seems in dire need. But again, my mana is more than fine during Phase 1.

In Phase 2, as a CoH priest, I know its my job to always have mana for breaths. I try to keep a minimum of 6k mana going into every breath.

[e] 25-man. Interestingly enough, I don't remember having mana issues in the 10-man.

Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.


#49 Imua

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:12 AM

10 man or 25 man?
Disc or Holy spec?

You are right in that any person getting hit twice in a row is dead, and the fight is annoying because the Scions *will* look to doing that sort of thing. (And then people blame healers blah blah blah)

Really, if you have to blow all of your mana during phase 2, go ahead and do it. You don't need any mana for phase 3. There are a couple of tricks, maybe: For Deep Breath, because the damage is so consistent and known, you can send off a PoM. Also Divine Hymn may not be a bad option, especially for the second Breath, since there probably won't be any adds around for the Incapacitate (if that is even an issue).

But other than that, don't be afraid to blow out all your mana in phase 2. Anything you have going into phase 3 is not going to get used anyway.

#50 Zaq

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 07:03 AM

From my groups one of the issues is that people run out of the bubbles too much. You only need to move every other bubble and if you're patient you can spend significantly less time moving and out in the real danger area as a whole group. As far as the nukes go, there's really nothing for it healingwise as far as I can see, it's just a situation where you have to top everyone off as fast as possible. I don't like it either but I don't see any way to de-sloppify it.
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#51 notrachel

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 05:46 PM

One big problem I have with the introduction of more cooldowns is that healers should *not* be cooldown-based classes.


Indeed. It seems to me that if we ignore situations where you need to keep CoH off cooldown for particular boss abilities or whatever, then missing a CoH or PoM cooldown becomes a "mistake" as it will lower your HPS and mana is unlikely to be an issue (since you can easily, in mana terms, hit every PoM and CoH cooldown).

So aside from specifc boss mechanics and priesting might come down to spamming a "/cast CoH /cast PoM /cast Flash Heal" (or similar) macro with occasional use of GH, PW:S, Binding Heal in the gaps.

(Sorry if this is the wrong thread).

#52 Starfire

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 06:51 PM

It worried me that Priest might become in 3.0 what Druids were in 2.0 in terms of cooldown.

Druids were mostly limited to "working in between Lifeblooms" more or less. And now it seems priests will be limited to working in between CoH/PoM. Although, I don't think we'll hit CoH every cooldown, not every boss demands it. But I see absolutely no reason not to PoM.

On a side note, why does Divine Aegis get so much attention but the druid equivilent Living Seed does not? (P.S. sorry I am not sure how to link Wowhead spells >.> WTB [ Spell] [ /Spell] Tags!)

Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.


#53 zellius

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:36 PM

I have somewhat of a naive question. Why would you constantly hit PoM on every cooldown?

It seems to me that:
1) Flash Heal is more mana efficient for a single target
2) Flash Heal is more HPS efficient for a single target
3) For a lot of fights, the dps-ers aren't getting damaged, so your PoM will often just be a single target heal
4) If your last "single target PoM" is sitting with 4 charges on a dps-er, it doesnt make sense to recast it because it'll jump from the tank and sit unused on a dpser again

Thoughts?

#54 Starfire

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:08 PM

Name one fight where the tank and only the tank takes damage. Even on Patchwerks you can jump PoM between 2-3 tanks. (Especially if you ask your warlock to sit 20 yards away).

Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.


#55 dalicia

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:21 PM

So...two and a half questions, two different raids make ups (in regards to healers).

First, this last week, our ten man Malygos (and Naxx) ran with two healers--myself, GS Holy priest and a Resto Sham...no idea what "type" of resto if there is a difference. Everything ran smoothly, and effectively up to the point of entering Malygos. I wanted to break it down, at least from my perspective, since he and I didn't break down healing/mana from his point of view. First attempt--believe we got to second stage, at least on person died from vortex fall damage, but we were considerably behind in healing, thus we wiped. Second attempt--sham went link dead, by the second vortex I was oom, but still had all cool downs available, my mentality was one healer is not going to keep everyone going with the random four person breath, tank damage and vortex + fall damage. Third/Fourth attempt--behind on healing once again, tank died first both attempts. Raid called at that point. So, our tank is a prot paladin, but I was noticing more spike damage. Maybe it's because I'm used to not being included on 10 man Malygos, and used to having pocket healers in 25...but I was wondering if anyone had better healer combos for 10 mans, but also, was there a noticeable difference between having different classes tanking on 10 mans? Also...thought maybe it might make a difference on how we make attempts, raid stands center, tank moves Malygos around us depending on "sparks" (correct term?).

10 man Sarth + 2 drakes first: Our make up consists of druid tanking Sarth, with paladin(s) OTing drakes--same healer comp, myself and rest sham. I wont break down issues to attempts, but what I was noticing as a general problem. We break the tanks up based on left or right, when the encounter beings--druid going left at the start of the platform, where you would stand w/o pulling aggro and in the "left" wave clear area. OT stands "right" wave clear area--generally to Malygos' right side where you would body pull if you ran to the area. (hope that makes sense) The raid, healers as well, stand in between--obviously melee closer to whichever is being damaged. My main focus was the MT>OT(s)>Raid. I had some range issue with Druid when "right" waves would come, but we worked that out some what. The real issue came more with the massive amount of damage that came with that wave--whether it was a breath, just lack of healing for the two seconds of range (him dipping into the lava and me running away from him to get into the clear area of the wave)--but over all handling the rotations of my GS and his cool downs was some what left to be wanting. We were still wiping to terrible timed breaths, among other real dumb things (void spawns, waves, etc after ports...silly things that can -should- be prevented). So...I guess it boils down to this: is death accountable to breath due to lack of communication between healers and tanks? Are others using notification macros on GS buffs? Is is more suitable to be heavy Disc over Holy for 10 Sarth + multiple drakes?

25 man Sarth + 2 drakes: Some what similar issues--different make up. Our 25 MT is a warrior, who isn't shy to use what he needs to and when. In this make up we have two holy priests (GS myself, and a wacky IMP DS/holy) and paladins, two resto sham and druids. In the 25 man, it's a little harder for me to pin point huge issues--healing, tanking, positioning, etc. to blame--but we run the same positioning layout as we do in our 10 man. We've tried different drank comps as well--to not avail in change of progression. So, my question regarding this is...should we have a heavy Disc priest and a GS priest? Same question with communication between healers and tanks, notification macros etc.? I really hate to think this is an issue of gear, but I'm also not oblivious to the fact that it can also be "dumb luck"--in regards to fires on Archie, just things to avoid as we've had several people die continuously to voids/waves.

#56 The Not So Evil

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:24 PM

IOn a side note, why does Divine Aegis get so much attention but the druid equivilent Living Seed does not? (P.S. sorry I am not sure how to link Wowhead spells >.> WTB [ Spell] [ /Spell] Tags!)


Use [ url=] [ /url] instead Living Seed. Living Seed functions more like a 1 jump Prayer of Mending than Divine Aegis.

I have somewhat of a naive question. Why would you constantly hit PoM on every cooldown?

It seems to me that:
1) Flash Heal is more mana efficient for a single target
2) Flash Heal is more HPS efficient for a single target
3) For a lot of fights, the dps-ers aren't getting damaged, so your PoM will often just be a single target heal
4) If your last "single target PoM" is sitting with 4 charges on a dps-er, it doesnt make sense to recast it because it'll jump from the tank and sit unused on a dpser again


All of those are correct, but Prayer of Mending has a chance of bouncing off multiple targets, and once that happens, its far superior to a Flash Heal. Also, Prayer of Mending is a heal cast in advance. If ProM lands on a topped off Tank, it will not heal until next time Tank takes damage. Which means you saved time.
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#57 constantius

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:29 PM

I have somewhat of a naive question. Why would you constantly hit PoM on every cooldown?

It seems to me that:
1) Flash Heal is more mana efficient for a single target
2) Flash Heal is more HPS efficient for a single target
3) For a lot of fights, the dps-ers aren't getting damaged, so your PoM will often just be a single target heal
4) If your last "single target PoM" is sitting with 4 charges on a dps-er, it doesnt make sense to recast it because it'll jump from the tank and sit unused on a dpser again

Thoughts?


PoM: 15% of base mana, heals for ~ 3900
FH: 16.2% of base mana, heals for ~ 5200 (glyph'd)

If you can get your second bounce off PoM (so 4 charges remaining, with 2-piece T7), it's more efficient than Flash, even accounting for the effects of Serendipity.

So basically, yes, if you have used only one charge of your PoM, don't re-use it unless you have mana to burn. But if it's been used twice, re-cast; you already got your efficiency.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

#58 Bjork

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 02:27 AM

... And more important, PoM is different healing than direct heals wich a lot of healers are landing all the time. Healing the tank to 100% > PoM is better than healing the tank to 100% > FH. PoM smooth out dmg the tank takes and you have a great chance of getting a 2nd proc. PoM should be one of the main heals as a tankhealer.

PoM is also higher than 3900 fully talented even with my low SP :)

So...I guess it boils down to this: is death accountable to breath due to lack of communication between healers and tanks? Are others using notification macros on GS buffs? Is is more suitable to be heavy Disc over Holy for 10 Sarth + multiple drakes?


Yes, communication is everything. You need a plan for every breath (dunno if its needed on two drakes though). And no, I would never run disc. on that encounter, you will perform so much better as holy with CoH + GS. That is my personal opinion at least.

***

Just a comment regarding the CoH-discussion. Healing will be very different after that patch for all classes. Any encounter which is slightly challenging for healers now will need a lot more healing from Shamans and Druids - which is a good thing. Gearing for holypriests will also change dramatically from going for pure regen (more or less) to stacking haste / crit.

PS! Not the thread for this, but I just have to: If you think that priests are viable as single target-healers in raids (after the nerf), then think again. We need to utilize CoH (losing a CoH is a disaster to HPS), PoM and PoH (!) to stay competitive compared to other healers. If we're forced into Single target-healing, you're always better off replacing the Priest unless the Priest is a godlike healer and irreplaceable player.

#59 constantius

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:22 AM

PoM is also higher than 3900 fully talented even with my low SP :)
<snip>
PS! Not the thread for this, but I just have to: If you think that priests are viable as single target-healers in raids (after the nerf), then think again. We need to utilize CoH (losing a CoH is a disaster to HPS), PoM and PoH (!) to stay competitive compared to other healers. If we're forced into Single target-healing, you're always better off replacing the Priest unless the Priest is a godlike healer and irreplaceable player.


Two comments:

1) The 3900 number is the average of all of my PoM bounces (non-crits) over a typical Naxx night, with ~ 2400 raid-buffed spellpower. Figured that was close enough.

2) You need either shamans or priests to keep Inspiration up. We discussed the math in the other thread, but assuming GHeal spam, priests keep up with shamans just fine for single-target heals, especially when we have enough crit to keep IHC procs going for hasted GHeals. I don't see us sitting priests anytime soon. Yes, we got nerfed, but it's not the end of the world.

[e] I'd say Disc can keep up with HPaladins ... *if* you factor the absorption and reduced damage and generously weight the tables in favour of the priest, and make sure to factor Inspiration as well. 8k HpS from HL spam (possibly even higher depending on setup, comp, etc) + Beacon is kinda ridiculous.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

#60 Starfire

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:07 AM

Did you guys remember the calculate the Imp. Water Shield / Lesser Healing Wave nerf too? Well, worse case, we can go back to having 1 priest per a raid and the rest being shadow. TBC Anyone? Discipline can certainly keep up with a Holy Paladin on a single target, while putting up Inspiration.

Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.





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