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Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion


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#1 Playered

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 02:46 AM

Due to several requests for a thread on this topic and the general clutter of the Itemization and Glyph thread we now have a new one to use which should keep the others from getting worse.

Things this thread is for:
  • Discussing the mechanics of spells.
  • Discussing the optimal uses of spells in different situations.
  • Discussing talent choices and viable alternative builds (any mention of Dreamstate will not be tolerated).
  • Asking for advice about your healing on different bosses (WWS welcome).
  • Talking about how to best work with other healing classes in 10 and 25 man raiding.
  • Discussing upcoming patch changes in a constructive manner.

Things this thread is not for:
  • Talking about Dreamstate or any build with more than 18 points in Balance (this needed repeating).
  • Crying about the CD on Wild Growth, why Blizzard hates us, or why the other classes are so much better that we never get invites.
  • Mentioning Useful Addons and general information about them (go to Resto UI instead).
  • Asking about item choices or mechanics (go to Resto Itemization instead).
  • Asking stupid or simple questions (go to Simple Questions instead).
  • Making up new talents, spells or wish lists (go to My Awesome Ideas instead).

I'm sure both lists could be expanded but hopefully common sense will prevail and it wont be needed.
At some point hopefully a FAQ thread can be made (and locked) in order to cover the basic questions that seem to crop up all the time (ie: Haste and GoTEM) for people to glance at before asking the same old questions.


Enjoy and remember to keep things civil and constructive :)

#2 Rijndael

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 10:09 AM

I am partly guilty of derailing the resto glyph thread with what is essentially a spell/build discussion, so I thought I would try to start it here. At this point, I just wanted to throw out a few questions/thoughts:

(1) A fully talented healing touch is a good spell -- it is both highest HPS and highest HPM direct healing spell resto druids have. It is, however, slow (greater heal speed). Druids do have Nature's Grace coupled with Improved Regrowth, which can reliably shave 0.5 seconds off Healing Touch in the same way paladins shave 0.5 seconds off Holy Light. It seems like there's a lot of potential here. The problem is, fully powering up Healing Touch requires 12 talents points, on top of the standard Balance talent Moonglow that everyone takes (Tranquil Spirit, Naturalist, and Empowered Touch). It is unclear where these points should come from. There are two candidates: Living Seed and Gift of the Earthmother. This leads to:

(2) What exactly is the value of Living Seed? One way to evaluate Living Seed is to just look at its healing % on the meters. I believe it is currently 1-3% depending on the fight. However, it seems to me the true value of this spell is increasing burst healing from Regrowth (since druids don't gear for crit, and most of their spells don't crit, statistically the vast majority of Living Seeds will come from Regrowth casts). What's a good methodology for evaluating this talent?

#3 Dioneirra

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 03:02 PM

Living Seed is a talent where i still ponder what exact value it offers. The given healing percentage seems to be correct, a naxx clear usually shows 2-3%. From my personal point of view i would judge it as a somewhat to weak reward for the invested points. I do see the point, the devs where trying to make here, i.e. giving druids a shieldlike ability without really providing control, which means, it doesn't really compare to Earthshield or PW:S. The main problem, which devalues the idea somewhat, is the old druid problem: a lot of our spells can't crit, and so cannot trigger Living Seed. The spells which are supposed to trigger this mechanic more often than not usually only provide an average Seed value (Regrowth Crits, mainly).

In its actual incarnation i do like to include Living Seed in my build, just because it works toward even more smoothing the incoming damage on a tank with being a reactive, instant heal. But it still is looked upon by me as a very weak talent which i would most likely replace, if there were a more appealing choice. Which Nature's Grace just is not in it's current state, because it only supports a somewhat lazy or nonflexible style of play (that means, trigger it with a Regrowth or hoping for a trigger during HT spam just seems to contradict druidic healing).

#4 Falk

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 04:44 PM

For evaluation purposes, I'd view Living Seed as mechanically "increases the amount healed when you crit by 30%" which, despite what the tooltip says about multiple spells, is primarily a Regrowth boost (as is Nature's Grace), the way Empowered Touch is a HT boost. That it works with other spells critting is just an afterthought in comparison. You probably could translate that into "increases the amount healed by Regrowth's initial heal by 30%, most of the time".

Yes, the seed mechanic itself won't save a tank if the next hit were to be fatal (this is directly after Regrowth lands, so it's gotta be a pretty hefty smack), and can be 'stored' for the next hit if the target is at full HP, so it's somewhat different from a straight 30% increase, but for pure throughput scenarios, it's almost identical.

The only catch is that boosting Regrowth to spam it on a single target is a waste of the HoT component compared to boosting HT to spam that.

#5 Tegid

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 08:21 PM

I've been trying to figure out which I should primarily use as my "big heal" and before 80 it was primarily Regrowth. I liked it because I was gaining a decent amount of haste, had glyphed for 20% Regrowth bonus, talented for Improved Regrowth (yay crit)/Living Seed/Natures Grace. At first this seemed win:win to me. But as I've hit 80 and gained Nourish I have been skeptical to give it a shot and really dig into it within encounters. I recently downloaded Recount and really want to do some tests but what do you guys/gals work with mostly? I know both have their place but I want efficiency and at this point am curious what you guys think.

Much appreciated.



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#6 Moknim

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 08:52 PM

I've been trying to figure out which I should primarily use as my "big heal" and before 80 it was primarily Regrowth. I liked it because I was gaining a decent amount of haste, had glyphed for 20% Regrowth bonus, talented for Improved Regrowth (yay crit)/Living Seed/Natures Grace. At first this seemed win:win to me. But as I've hit 80 and gained Nourish I have been skeptical to give it a shot and really dig into it within encounters. I recently downloaded Recount and really want to do some tests but what do you guys/gals work with mostly? I know both have their place but I want efficiency and at this point am curious what you guys think.


I have been using Regrowth as my go-to heal. Since Nourish doesn't get the +heal benefit if only WG is on the target, it is not a very effective heal to spam on the raid. Regrowth has the HoT, increased chance to crit, and is benefiting from Nature's Grace quite often. It could also be that I haven't gotten used to having Nourish as an option (I only seem to cast it when I think "Hey, I haven't used that in a while, lemme try it out now" or when the tank is getting too low in place of a NG+HT).

Question on Add-ons:
I have been using DoTTimer to track HoTs, but WG spams it and will push tank HoTs down out of my immediate field of vision (thus making it harder to track). Is there anyway to take WG off of the DoTTimer? Or, alternatively, I have been told that Grid can display almost all the pertinent information needed about my HoTs, but I have not been able to find a way to convey all the information (how long is left, how many stacks do I have up, etc.).

#7 Calaziar

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 09:16 PM

I've been trying to figure out which I should primarily use as my "big heal" and before 80 it was primarily Regrowth. I liked it because I was gaining a decent amount of haste, had glyphed for 20% Regrowth bonus, talented for Improved Regrowth (yay crit)/Living Seed/Natures Grace. At first this seemed win:win to me. But as I've hit 80 and gained Nourish I have been skeptical to give it a shot and really dig into it within encounters. I recently downloaded Recount and really want to do some tests but what do you guys/gals work with mostly? I know both have their place but I want efficiency and at this point am curious what you guys think.

Much appreciated.



-Luradanen | Kael'Thas


If you go to Resto4Life and scroll down to the '
Direct Healing In Wrath' post (second one at the time of this posting), you will find some math that answers your question pretty conclusively. At the time of this posting Nourish is rather expensive and ineffective until you gain the 4pc T7 bonus when it becomes very viable. If the recent posting from Ghostcrawler that Nourish may also be affected by Wild Growth HoTs goes live this would seem to make Nourish that much more viable as a big heal. Until that happens stick with Regrowth or go the glyphed HT route.

#8 puebloune

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 09:26 PM

Question on Add-ons:
I have been using DoTTimer to track HoTs, but WG spams it and will push tank HoTs down out of my immediate field of vision (thus making it harder to track). Is there anyway to take WG off of the DoTTimer? Or, alternatively, I have been told that Grid can display almost all the pertinent information needed about my HoTs, but I have not been able to find a way to convey all the information (how long is left, how many stacks do I have up, etc.).


I have a UI setup that tells me everything. Thru Grid and some other mods, I worked out a color system that tells me how long is left on my hots and therefore when to refresh them.

I prefer to wait on the OP's permission to post my UI here since he said it's not the good place to do so. Altho, if you want more information, I guess we can use PM, just let me know.

#9 Verdant

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 10:29 PM

Question on Lifebloom:
Currently I am in a regrowth-centric build, stacking regrowth, lifebloom one-stack, rejuvenation and sometimes wild growth. Is it better to let lifebloom only stack once and run out, or try to keep it at a 3 stack? the direct heal portion of lifebloom has gotten a huge buff recently, and it might be better to simply let it run out.

Talents that increase the lifespan of bloom must also be taken into account. Between Nature's Splendor and the lifebloom glyph, it could be a 9 second 3 stack lifebloom is less HPS then a 6 second 1 stack lifebloom.

#10 uliko

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 12:07 AM

Taking some figures from my lifebloom last raids it seems to tick for 470 and bloom for 3600 (thats actually higher then the parses show on the bloom and lower on the tick). That means it takes 4s for those two extra stacks to beat the bloom (3760 healing done) plus you then get another 3 seconds (it's 7s pre talent/glyph) for an additional 2820 healing (in reality it is 4700 extra since everyone takes splendor). So no, not in any case (other then Loatheb) is it benificial to let lifebloom expire instead of rolling a 3 stack.

It seems alot of druids have stopped rolling lifebloom on the tank just because it got nerfed and that's just stupid. A 1200/s hot (should be around there at 2400sp which is what most have) sure is less of the total tanks health compared to TBC but it's not anywhere near the realm of useless.
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#11 Verdant

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 04:40 AM

Taking some figures from my lifebloom last raids it seems to tick for 470 and bloom for 3600 (thats actually higher then the parses show on the bloom and lower on the tick). That means it takes 4s for those two extra stacks to beat the bloom (3760 healing done) plus you then get another 3 seconds (it's 7s pre talent/glyph) for an additional 2820 healing (in reality it is 4700 extra since everyone takes splendor). So no, not in any case (other then Loatheb) is it benificial to let lifebloom expire instead of rolling a 3 stack.

It seems alot of druids have stopped rolling lifebloom on the tank just because it got nerfed and that's just stupid. A 1200/s hot (should be around there at 2400sp which is what most have) sure is less of the total tanks health compared to TBC but it's not anywhere near the realm of useless.


On that note, do you (or other people for that matter!) think that the lifebloom glyph (adds a second to lifebloom) is worth it? Currently I have the swiftmend and regrowth glyphs, and been scouting for a third at 80.

#12 Lemanakmelo

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 10:53 AM

On that note, do you (or other people for that matter!) think that the lifebloom glyph (adds a second to lifebloom) is worth it? Currently I have the swiftmend and regrowth glyphs, and been scouting for a third at 80.


I think the lifebloom glyph is completely worth it. I am always keeping a 3 stack on the tank, so having to refresh it a second later is saved mana, as well as more time for other healing. And while resto druids do have way more globals to use in between lifebloom stack refreshes than pre-3.0, you still can't ignore the fact that it's another second. I find it allows a huge amount of flexibility in my healing, I can very easily keep hots on the main tank while doing whatever else is needed.

#13 Anaram

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 12:13 PM

As a general rule stacking lifebloom on the tank is never a bad idea. How much you actually gain compared to how much some other action might give you varies from encounter to encounter, though. Lifebloom serves a few functions in healing: firstly it might provide a sort of buffer against spike damage (albeit very small) but more importantly it allows other healers not to worry about keeping tanks 100% topped off. In some cases (particularly for offtanks) lifebloom can give them a lot of room to maneuvre in.

If MT is at 90% then a paladin might need to use FoL to top him up but with druid hots (lifebloom+rejuvenation) he can just concentrate on doing his holy lights and need not "risk" the FoL (or he can afford to try & get more value out of his beacon without risking tank death).

#14 puebloune

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 02:50 PM

First, thanks OP for making this thread!


I also have issues with DotTimer. I'm using it in conjuction with Xperl (which I can only get to show the number of hots on a target, not who they are from or time remaining or anything. I had Grid at one time but didn't really like it, but I'll give it another shot if it will make tracking my HoT's easier. I do switch my tank targets to their own dottimer bar, which makes finding them in conjuction with the rest of the raid easier, but in the end its just not good enough. I recast too soon and too often. Wasting a lot of mana. I think if I had a better mod setup I could track all the information and make better decisions.


On to my main question...

For patchwerk style fights (massive incoming damage) do you think you're better off rolling hots on the tank or just spamming regrowth? With only 1 second (maybe 2) to top off the tank before the next hit I just can't see a full stack of HoT's putting out enough healing in that 1 second verses a regrowth. When I attempt to keep rolling HoT's on the 3 tanks (which is tough for me with my current mod setup) my healing done for the fight is very poor. I finish very low on the healing meters. The tanks get topped so fast I just don't know if the HoT's are worthwhile. I haven't attempted to just spam regrowth on the fight yet, but will try it next time I get into Naxx25.

And a second question.

When AOE healing slower incoming damage do you use rejuv or lifebloom on the raid? With the WG cooldown incoming I'm going to have to cast something else in the meantime and I don't know if the bloom is better than the long duration of rejuv. I don't tend to use either exclusively, I tend to cast one or the other randomly. No method to my madness whatsoever.


First question, roll hots on both tank (3 lifebloom, 1 regrowth, 1 rejuvenation) and use nourish (or regrowth if you,re specc this way) to whatever tank that is the lower. Priority on the hots, not on the direct heal spamm.

Second question : I use a mix of both, depending of what the situation is. Sapphiron like damage, rejuvenation is pretty good to counter the frost damage. For small unknown damage, lifebloom may be enough, for Loatheb, lifebloom last tick is very good. I guess I just go by extinct, on melee I would say I prefer rejuvenation tho, to use swiftmend and save their arse from a cleave, WW or aggro.

#15 Trouble

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 02:50 PM

I'm not sure if I'm "doing it right" but I find regrowth to be my spell of choice in too many situations. It's fast, it's hefty, it's not horribly inefficient, it procs living seed, and it procs nature's grace. My "heal plan" is Wild Growth where applicable, Lifebloom on tanks and targets taking steady damage and targets that I anticipate will take damage soon, and Regrowth for most everything else. I don't find myself using healing touch due to the speed and I don't find myself using Nourish because...well Regrowth pre-empts Nourish in almost all situations it'd be useful. Am I missing something or is this actually how I should be healing?

#16 kywirelessguy

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 02:51 PM

....

#17 Dioneirra

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 03:26 PM

On to my main question...

For patchwerk style fights (massive incoming damage) do you think you're better off rolling hots on the tank or just spamming regrowth? With only 1 second (maybe 2) to top off the tank before the next hit I just can't see a full stack of HoT's putting out enough healing in that 1 second verses a regrowth. When I attempt to keep rolling HoT's on the 3 tanks (which is tough for me with my current mod setup) my healing done for the fight is very poor. I finish very low on the healing meters. The tanks get topped so fast I just don't know if the HoT's are worthwhile. I haven't attempted to just spam regrowth on the fight yet, but will try it next time I get into Naxx25.

And a second question.

When AOE healing slower incoming damage do you use rejuv or lifebloom on the raid? With the WG cooldown incoming I'm going to have to cast something else in the meantime and I don't know if the bloom is better than the long duration of rejuv. I don't tend to use either exclusively, I tend to cast one or the other randomly. No method to my madness whatsoever.


On 10 men patchwerk i hot both tanks completly and use free cds to spam nourish (4T7) on the MT. The second healer takes care of the HS tank, while providing situational heal for the MT (priest will keep up renew and toss out PoM or PW:S if needed, shaman will bounce CH from the HS tank, paladin will beacon or shock). On 25 men patchwerk i will ignore the third tank completly (a single healer usually is sufficient there) and heal like in 10 men, but i will push out WG between nourish spam, if the three tanks are less than 100% health.

Regarding AoE support heal, it really depends on the fight. Besides WG the spell of your choice will be choosen by the kind of damage people will take. Sapphiron for example is regrowth heaven, long, steady ticks, the frontheal is never wasted, and i virtually have unlimited mana thanks to the iceblock phase. LB is strong when the time of the incoming damage is predictable, as it can be precast (think grobbulus injection). Rejuv is somewhat of an average, it does not has a focus on neither time nor strength of healing.

#18 Playered

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 03:45 PM

RJ is our best 'raid HoT' because 1900/3 RJ ticks vs 400/1~ LB will always mean RJ heals more until the final tick of LB hits in (10 seconds off) but then you still have 2~ more ticks where RJ will again overtake LB in the end. It lasts almost twice the duration, is Swiftmendable if the target takes a burst and it's cheaper (assuming Idol, else its not far off) while outperforming LB on a HPC/HPM standard.

Everything else should be used to complement RJ on fights like Sapphiron - ie WG on the melee if they get hit by Blizzard as they are clumped, LB to help keep people topped off (as RJ is not enough to cover the damage) or RG if people get spiked a tad and they benefit from the upfront 5-7k direct heal too (the HoT will never be wasted either).


On Patch I tend to always spread HoTs out on the targets taking the most damage (MT/OT1) and then put my focus mostly on the MT due to the more steady damage they take, but also being ready to help support the OT(s) if required. However you are perfectly viable to focus on one target with HoTs and RG/Nourish/HT* if that is what your raid setup requires you do.


For occasions like healing through Twilights Torment I am slightly heavy handed with using Regrowth then sprinkling WG/RJ/LB around as a secondary thought due to the incredible amounts of Raid-HPS you can put up rather quickly by doing so.
I wouldn't say RG is horribly inefficient (because it's not assuming you crit and get LS) even if the HoT doesn't really get used but I do feel slightly bad by using it too much, however Nourish really doesn't shine out as enough of a unique purpose to be worthy of using instead of RG on the raid.
Even if the possible change of WG counting as a Nourish booster happens I doubt I would ever consider it for anything beyond using on Tanks purely because in situations where I would have HoTs up on raid members then RG will most likely get use from the HoT/LS and thus out perform Nourish there too.

I guess Blizzard intended direct healing to be done by RG for the Raid, and Nourish for the Tanks in order to keep them from overlapping in purpose too much without directly making them worthless for the other job (just slightly less efficient).
They have done a pretty good job at giving better purposes to our spells in Wrath than TBC honestly and once people get used to WG being a secondary raid healing tool instead of a primary one. That said I am still dubious around Nourish and HT on the MT at this time but perhaps Ulduar will give us tighter jobs where we cannot count on another healer to suppliment our HoTs in order to not use them as intended.


One thing I have been lazy of since WoTLK has been bothering with a DoT/HoT timer addon, despite not having one I haven't had many issues on serious encounters of HoTs falling off on much and on multi tank encounters I just end up feeling the rhythm and generally knowing when to do what in my cycle regardless.
I'm not sure if I want to bother with one eventually or not, less clutter is always good and I am not a fan of Grid either so that limits my options slightly.

#19 malthrin

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 04:07 PM

I'm not sure if I'm "doing it right" but I find regrowth to be my spell of choice in too many situations. It's fast, it's hefty, it's not horribly inefficient, it procs living seed, and it procs nature's grace. My "heal plan" is Wild Growth where applicable, Lifebloom on tanks and targets taking steady damage and targets that I anticipate will take damage soon, and Regrowth for most everything else. I don't find myself using healing touch due to the speed and I don't find myself using Nourish because...well Regrowth pre-empts Nourish in almost all situations it'd be useful. Am I missing something or is this actually how I should be healing?


That's pretty much what I'm doing as well (minor difference: I tend to Rejuv, rather than single LB, when I'm trying to anticipate semi-random damage). Wild Growth is a bit farther down my priority list because we've been raiding with 2 CoH Priests; it's not worth casting unless there's enough AoE damage that I'll get the first two ticks of WG before CoH happens. I'm not sure if I'll need to move it up or not - CoH nerf, yes, but glyph of HL may pick up the slack. Does that glyph trigger on overheal?

Anyway, Regrowth and Rejuv are my main two buttons. I don't use Nourish or non-NS HT. Lifebloom gets rolled on tanks and Swiftmend is my go-to button when I want to cast a Regrowth but happen to be moving. Here's a question, to keep the discussion moving: what kind of neat uses of Tranquility have you found? Does it still ignore LOS (it did in BC)? So far the one particularly nice use I've found for it is to allow the Hunter group + pets to DPS straight through the first 7-8 seconds of Twilight Torment.

#20 Guest_Adriel_*

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 08:50 PM

On that note, do you (or other people for that matter!) think that the lifebloom glyph (adds a second to lifebloom) is worth it? Currently I have the swiftmend and regrowth glyphs, and been scouting for a third at 80.


Lifebloom glyph is definitely worth it. :o A lifebloom stack is the highest HPS and HPM HOT we have. The implication is there should always be a lifebloom stack on the MT. The glyph gives you more time to refresh that stack; which definitely helps when you're raid healing. Secondly, even if you're excellent at timing LB, it still gives you one free second of healing. Which translates into increased output and/or mana regeneration.

I'd actually take LB glyph before regrowth glyph. Because regrowth x2 won't be cast except on the tanks. And when it comes to the tanks, my sentiment is trees are better than anyone when it comes to HOTs. So I put up the hots, and let my priests or pallies do the direct heals :P That said, if you're the main healer and you're mainly assigned to one target, then you don't really need the LB glyph. 9 seconds is enough if you're not constantly switching to heal other people.




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