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Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion


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#2421 Hamlet

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:25 PM

On that note, I don't see why so many people leave off the 3rd point in Subtlety. What's so important about Tranquil Spirit? Subtlety doesn't come up that often, but there's no serious talent competing for those points, so you should just have it for when it turns out to matter. I feel like Anub should have made this pretty clear.

#2422 Carebare

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:31 PM

I didn't always spec it (or fully spec it) for Anub because Scorned would flip his vigilance from manly (who has it during AOE) to me on the run in. A lot of times not having subtlety (or having less subtlety than any other tree present) is just as good as having it if you are using lack of it to your advantage. The most conventional example was Algalon, but the principle applies anywhere you'd like to take advantage of it.

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#2423 Hamlet

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 04:06 PM

There are definitely times when you don't want it. Algalon is a good one (although lots of people didn't handle Constellations that way), and trying to maximize Vigilance is maybe another (though I'm skeptical--I'd probably rather just have the reduced chance of being gibbed). But for general use, there's no particular reason not to have it. And I was mostly responding to prior poster, who only has 2/3 Subtlety and is complaining about getting threat.

#2424 Kirbie44

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 04:19 PM

I used to avoid subtlety as well. Since 3D Sarth, I found it a godsend. I didn't spec out of it for algalon, but my guild didn't have a problem with Algalon (we formed it just a few weeks before 3.2) as we out geared the encounter when we got there.

If you are a vigilance bot, then I can also see not taking it. 2% reduced mana on Nourish seems lackluster for a resto druid. Aggro issues are a big deal on any fight with adds. Big oozes, Yogg adds, Anub'Arak, Blood Beasts, Gunship, Deathwhisper, etc.
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#2425 Fallenangel

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 04:24 PM

Wouldn't a paladin with RF make a much better vigilance target? They also have a reason to put it up (6% less damage taken).

#2426 Carebare

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 05:38 PM

Progress for Anub happened a pretty long time ago and there wasn't this firm grasp how it was going to be done. Many guilds did rj rolling including Premo, so having a resto druid with more threat than a RF pally was not unreasonable at the time.

Edit to add: If the raid damage is significant enough on any encounter depending who is doing what a Resto druid can reasonably outthreat a paladin with RF especially if said paladin needs to move at all.

A lot of this comes down to the continued theme than can be a tad hrm arrogant on these forums. Different guilds do things different ways. With regard to healing there is a lot more wiggle room to the "right" way than with DPS. Everytime someone comes in here posting something that obviously worked and they didn't do the same way as yourself (not directed to the post just above mine) please consider the source, their progress, and don't be so quick to lynch them off the forums.

There is some black and white to healing, but not nearly as much as it's often painted out to be.

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#2427 Carebare

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 07:39 PM

Just a few other points to add in response to specific stuff:
@Hamlet re 2/3: In some cases that 10% might matter, but I think the major point of his pulling aggro on Rotface specifically given the mechanics is that an OT cannot continually dump threat where as a ranged DPS kiter can. Additionally that OT specced as DPS + ranged kiter is by far better raid dps than wasting someone purely to kite. Can it be done both ways? I'm sure it can, but I just don't see how 10% threat reduction will fix his problem. We had multiple healers pulling in 25man, which is why we went the way did -- it worked for us and could work for his guild too if they were so inclined to try.

@Fallenangel re Vig: Strictly speaking my threat on Anub will always be consistently high even with full subtlety because of how we do it (passive healing on 4 out of 5 groups with RJ roll on 1 group + PC + tank). A paladin may not land a significant amount of healing for whatever reason on the run in, compared to the known and stable threat a resto druid can supply. Again, this works for us, it may work differently for other people to say one is better than the other is moot -- both work.

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#2428 Mahalo

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 08:42 PM

We faced 3 bosses last night, 2 new and 1 old in the plague wing. Festergut and Rotface were fairly easy. The Lag boss was killer. New content, populated server, should have expected. Rotface was fairly easy to do with lag. Healing wise... I didn't do much as there was little damage going out. The OT tanking adds sometimes got caught in ooze, but our priests are quick on their CD's to wings/PS him. Pretty simple tank and spank, which was expected.

Festergut posed our biggest problem. I took this fight with a simple 5x1 healing style. There were 2 ranged groups, and the healers. I 5 x rejuvenated the ranged, and WG the melee. It worked really well, as you can still HoT on the run to/from spores. a WG on your ranged group after the spore is a good idea, but the damage was laughable. If you have 2 stacks, you CAN survive, but 3 is recommended. Barkskin during the explosion thing he does is nice, along with shadow aura mastery. It is a DPS race, and after the 2nd explosion, you don't have to worry about getting spores. The tanks get trucked hard after the first spore, so PS/Wings/cool downs are recommended.

We pulled Putricide once, but quickly found out that lag would get the best of us. Seemed easy to heal so far, after 3 minutes of engagement. We also pulled to Putricide but didn't attempt him in 10m. We were tired, and already being dumb on the previous bosses. 3AM raiding is FTL.

I didn't feel a difficulty increase in this wing compared to the first 4 bosses. Without lag, 1 wipe to each boss seems fair.


Setup - holy paladin (tanks), disc priest (ranged - bubblespam), two resto sham (melee / tanks), tree (me - ranged)

We cleared to and killed Fester after 5 or so attempts. I wound up rolling rejuvs on two ranged groups, as you did, and dropped my WG on the healer group which is stacked with tanks / melee right on top of him for easy spore collection. The fight was fun as hell but I found myself with the best results after I re-glyphed for rapid rejuv / rejuv 50% and wild growth. For the next time I might just keep swiftmend in favor of wild growth because since we were mostly stacked my WGs were usually overwritten by brain heal, holy nova and PoH. That said I didn't mend much since I was too busy rolling rejuvs whenever spores were out. Anyone else glyph-swap for this?

What a great fight - definitely some of the most fun I've had healing in a while.

#2429 Fallenangel

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 09:35 PM

@Fallenangel re Vig: Strictly speaking my threat on Anub will always be consistently high even with full subtlety because of how we do it (passive healing on 4 out of 5 groups with RJ roll on 1 group + PC + tank). A paladin may not land a significant amount of healing for whatever reason on the run in, compared to the known and stable threat a resto druid can supply. Again, this works for us, it may work differently for other people to say one is better than the other is moot -- both work.


It was a general statement, not about Anub specifically. And yes in that particular case it can vary quite greatly - if a druid is only PC healing then the opposite will happen, can happen that you don't generate aggro for a long time. Personally I don't see why you'd roll rejuvs for leech healing but, whatever works.

#2430 Kirbie44

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 05:24 PM

Professor Putricide definitely seems kill-able (obviously). My guild has been on farm content for so long, that only a few of us researched the fight, figuring it would be a pushover. Glad to see it is a tough fight. The only healing suggestion I have is to hit WG while targeting the (green I think) slime before he blows up his group. Pretty easy fight for us resto druids. A LOT of movement, look around, don't stand in stuff. P3 the tanks do get trucked pretty hard, rolling LB's along with Regrowth and Rejuve on the tank is recommended. I did spec out of CF and the extra balance talents going 11/0/60 as my extra raid spread was not needed, but more powerful single targets, like LS and ET. This wasn't just for the tanks, but for the Red Ooze kiting or any ignorant raider who got hit by vials or bouncies. A really fun fight. I did use lifebloom quite a bit, and might pick up that glyph for this fight if I don't find something different.
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#2431 Demagogue

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 07:17 PM

There are definitely times when you don't want it. Algalon is a good one (although lots of people didn't handle Constellations that way), and trying to maximize Vigilance is maybe another (though I'm skeptical--I'd probably rather just have the reduced chance of being gibbed). But for general use, there's no particular reason not to have it. And I was mostly responding to prior poster, who only has 2/3 Subtlety and is complaining about getting threat.


Sorry Hamlet, I guess my post wasn't as clear as I thought, I wasn't having issues with my threat, just the holydin was. I used to run with 3/3 Subtlety as well (I thought I still was to be honest) I had dropped it down a point a while back simple as a test, and really didn't have healing issues with it, even on the newer content such as Saurfang and such. So it apperently remained at 2/3. Then again, I'm not so much of a 5x1 Tree either, so I tend to not have the worry of pulling intial aggro on adds when they spawn.

Carebare hit the nail on the head for me, I was actually speaking with our MT yesterday as well, and yeah a big portion of his problem was simply generating enough threat. That was our fault for having a warrior do it through, We have a boomkin & hunter with stam sets (They absorbs orbs on Twins) who would probably have been a much better choice for the roll. As a standard it looks like we'll be having our pally OT do it now, as well he doesn't have a decent dps set, and when doing it in 10s the ability to remove the slowing debuff off themself was a god sent, I imagine it would be the same in 25s, but I'll definitely keep the ranged DPS in mind too.


On Kaeya's note regarding Putricide, I ironically did the exact opposite to the point that I am contemplating re-gemming/speccing to get the addition SP and CF to meet haste cap. This was probably the first fight that I've really done the whole 5x1 casting almost exclusively I just found it a very useful way to keep the raid covered (we have two trees) I think it might be beneficial when it comes to things like the Mallable Ooze as well, personally I would rather myself and the other Tree with our 3 hunters be the only people at ranged, so that the ooze only fly towards us, we can dodge them with very little loss to healing/dps. I think it would help a lot with allowing the other healers focus on the tanks in p3 as yes they do definitely take a beating in that phase.

#2432 Carebare

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 10:59 PM

On Kaeya's note regarding Putricide, I ironically did the exact opposite to the point that I am contemplating re-gemming/speccing to get the addition SP and CF to meet haste cap. This was probably the first fight that I've really done the whole 5x1 casting almost exclusively I just found it a very useful way to keep the raid covered (we have two trees) I think it might be beneficial when it comes to things like the Mallable Ooze as well, personally I would rather myself and the other Tree with our 3 hunters be the only people at ranged, so that the ooze only fly towards us, we can dodge them with very little loss to healing/dps. I think it would help a lot with allowing the other healers focus on the tanks in p3 as yes they do definitely take a beating in that phase.


The middle ground here that I will probably go is at least for the first night, swap out my T9 gloves for T10 (I have a token, so the 264 version) and swap out my crit ring for a haste alternative.

This will give me the 856 haste I need to drop 3/3 CF and swap over to a 14/0/57 spec using the extra points in Living Seed. I realize I will drop a tad of raid healing for the first phases, but we run 2 resto druids and 2 resto shamans and while although the crit to RJ felt at times life-saving in 10man (we 2 healed it), having 4 raid healers for only 2.5x the player amount I don't think it will be a loss to the raid as a whole (though it will obviously be to my personal HPS). This will allow me to help pummel the tanks with heals in P3 with nourish talents/glyph/Living Seed/Nature's Grace, but still keep my 1s GCD on RJ for the first phases. In later weeks I won't bother to go this route, but I tend to be overly cautious on progress fights especially given limited attempts. I'll carry it as a second spec so that I have the option of swapping back to my normal gear/spec if it feels unneeded.

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#2433 Sinalos

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 01:08 AM

The middle ground here that I will probably go is at least for the first night, swap out my T9 gloves for T10 (I have a token, so the 264 version) and swap out my crit ring for a haste alternative.

This will give me the 856 haste I need to drop 3/3 CF and swap over to a 14/0/57 spec using the extra points in Living Seed. I realize I will drop a tad of raid healing for the first phases, but we run 2 resto druids and 2 resto shamans and while although the crit to RJ felt at times life-saving in 10man (we 2 healed it), having 4 raid healers for only 2.5x the player amount I don't think it will be a loss to the raid as a whole (though it will obviously be to my personal HPS). This will allow me to help pummel the tanks with heals in P3 with nourish talents/glyph/Living Seed/Nature's Grace, but still keep my 1s GCD on RJ for the first phases. In later weeks I won't bother to go this route, but I tend to be overly cautious on progress fights especially given limited attempts. I'll carry it as a second spec so that I have the option of swapping back to my normal gear/spec if it feels unneeded.


I'm curious if you're using Regrowth enough to warrant the points in Nature's Grace still. I've recently gotten enough upgrades to allow for gemming to make up the rest of my haste while maintaining 4pc T9, but have chosen to go with 11/0/60 build instead of 14/0/57. I could easily drop 3 points from the resto tree (2 from imp barkskin and 1 from Living Spirit would probably be my choice), but I just don't find it that useful since Regrowth base cast time is 1.4 seconds when you're haste capped, and the frequency at which I use it isn't high enough to warrant Nature's Grace.

#2434 Carebare

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 01:19 AM

I guess what it comes down to is even a small/infrequent benefit is more valuable to me than 1 more point is LS and IBS. I will be sure to pay close attention to it, and if it seems worthless overall I'll dump it. This isn't a spec I'm using for anything other than being able to lob some enormous tank heals in p3 Putri-25. I have no plans to otherwise break my 4t9/regem to haste up just yet and make a permanent switch. I hope to at some point though.

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#2435 oopsminded

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:29 AM

Did anyone test, theorized or is there a way to use tools like Simcraft (never did, so only guessing about what it does) to see:

1) for a 5x1 rotation - how many casts can someone actually do at haste cap compared to someone 200 haste points behind, BUT taking into consideration latency? (blanketing the raid and having Grid, I can definitely see a small delay before applying a hot and grid status hots acknowledging it, so I try, probably like all of you, to get into a rhythm, but how precise is that rhytm?)

2) 0.9s NG-ed Nourishes one-target spam vs 1.1s (with no NG points) chained Nourishes - are you sure you get more casts in the first situation?

#2436 Timberton

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 09:23 AM

1) for a 5x1 rotation - how many casts can someone actually do at haste cap compared to someone 200 haste points behind, BUT taking into consideration latency? (blanketing the raid and having Grid, I can definitely see a small delay before applying a hot and grid status hots acknowledging it, so I try, probably like all of you, to get into a rhythm, but how precise is that rhytm?)

You have to take in consideration that in both cases your latency will be the same. The delay you see may be Grid event update delay.

2) 0.9s NG-ed Nourishes one-target spam vs 1.1s (with no NG points) chained Nourishes - are you sure you get more casts in the first situation?

If bringing in latency in the discussion, yes, i'm quite sure 0.9s Nourishes will outnumber 1.1s chained nourishes.

We cleared to and killed Fester after 5 or so attempts. I wound up rolling rejuvs on two ranged groups, as you did, and dropped my WG on the healer group which is stacked with tanks / melee right on top of him for easy spore collection. The fight was fun as hell but I found myself with the best results after I re-glyphed for rapid rejuv / rejuv 50% and wild growth. For the next time I might just keep swiftmend in favor of wild growth because since we were mostly stacked my WGs were usually overwritten by brain heal, holy nova and PoH. That said I didn't mend much since I was too busy rolling rejuvs whenever spores were out. Anyone else glyph-swap for this?



My 10 man guild ran a more unconventional healing setup of 2 druids. And after Rotface I have some doubts on the swiftmend glyph "required" for all purposes

We had druids Tank+raid heal. We analyzed the unsuccessful attempts and found the healing problem to be less with spot healing and more with raid wide healing falling behind and needing more spot healing to catch up.
For Rotface we chose to discard the swiftmend glyph with the Rejuvenation glyph, and run a nourish-rapid rejuv-rejuv glyph setup.

What this allowed us was to have 2x rejuvenations on the targets which needed more attention. This basically meant that if the damage was great enough to bring the person under 50%, the glyph of rejuvenation effect from 2 druids would act as a "third" (rapid glyphed) rejuvenation effect. This would then buy enough time to Nourish or Regrowth the target back to full and making swiftmending basically not needed; the added benefit was the raid was better buffered.



Pros for nourish-rapid rejuv-rejuv glyph setup:
On Festergut: better safety margin on P1-P2 due to the hasted and "empowered" rejuvenation under 50%, allowing enough time for spot healing with (glyphed) nourish.
Better P3 tank healing with (glyphed) nourish. Having 2x druids with all hots out on the tank and spamming nourish is quite a safety margin.
Rotface is easier to heal if people stay out of the various puddles/poison sprays and what not. My guild killed it with the above glyph setup and 2x druid healers.

#2437 oopsminded

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 09:57 AM

You have to take in consideration that in both cases your latency will be the same. The delay you see may be Grid event update delay.

I wasn't very clear, I'm sorry: I was curious if, taking into consideration human reaction time and variable game latency, there is a significant difference between blanketing 5x1 with 1 sec GCD vs 1.05 GCD or if it falls inside the standard deviation of a mathematical model.

If bringing in latency in the discussion, yes, i'm quite sure 0.9s Nourishes will outnumber 1.1s chained nourishes.

From what I know, chaining 1.1s by starting to cast the next spell in the "red" portion of a castbar addon like Quartz/ACB, will have you casting them nonstop, a number of time(s)/1.1; what I don't know is how many instants or below-GCD casts you can have (with a capped 1s GCD), taking into consideration client-server communication/latency.

#2438 Timberton

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:24 AM

I wasn't very clear, I'm sorry: I was curious if, taking into consideration human reaction time and variable game latency, there is a significant difference between blanketing 5x1 with 1 sec GCD vs 1.05 GCD or if it falls inside the standard deviation of a mathematical model.

There is also extra healing attached due to glyph of rapid rejuvenation. Won't comment on the mathematical stuff since i'm not that good at it.

From what I know, chaining 1.1s by starting to cast the next spell in the "red" portion of a castbar addon like Quartz/ACB, will have you casting them nonstop, a number of time(s)/1.1; what I don't know is how many instants or below-GCD casts you can have (with a capped 1s GCD), taking into consideration client-server communication/latency.


Blizzard has been making tweaks on this way back at wotlk launch. The "red" portion gets automatically handled by the client, in theory eliminating the latency on chained casts. Back in BC you had to make /stopcasting macros to stop the client animation, if timing this in the "red" portion of the cast bar, the server would still fire the canceled spell. But that's old mechanics.
The benefit on a 0.9s cast on a 1 s gcd is in the human reaction time. The 0.9s cast will "swallow" a lower reaction time and integrate it in the 1s gcd. The 1.1s cast will take 1.1s+human reaction time (this "cast under 1 second" occurs for instance when you are haste capped and are specced into Nature's Grace).

This is not valid in the same way on instant casts. Here you will not go down under the CGD the same way as described above with the 0.9 s casts.
In this case the benefit on instant casts from reaching the 1s gcd is minimizing the reaction time for one(as in 1s+reaction time vs 1.1s+reaction time), and increasing healing throughput with glyph of rapid rejuvenation.

#2439 Videl

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 03:53 PM

That was our fault for having a warrior do it through, We have a boomkin & hunter with stam sets (They absorbs orbs on Twins) who would probably have been a much better choice for the roll. As a standard it looks like we'll be having our pally OT do it now, as well he doesn't have a decent dps set, and when doing it in 10s the ability to remove the slowing debuff off themself was a god sent, I imagine it would be the same in 25s, but I'll definitely keep the ranged DPS in mind too.


I would say having a warrior do it was almost definitely the problem there. Healing in that fight is not that strenuous and the pickup of the big ooze is not that time sensitive. You just need a tank that can generate a halfway decent amount of threat at range like... really anything but a warrior.


I haven't actually run into any trouble yet pulling aggro off a tank who has hit something without maxing subtlety, I don't exactly see how you would. I might pull the adds on anub, but only off another healer. Only a paladin is particularly more suited to take a hit, and if I know it's coming and have barkskin up I'm pretty sure that'll make me the best candidate to take a swing anyway. In most other situations I want the aggro if it's on a non-tank. I think I'm as well suited as anyone to take a hit if it needs to be taken or avoid it if that's possible. If I was consistently raiding with a pally whose awareness I trusted that might be different, but maybe not, I can still move at about any time for a short kite to buy the tank a couple seconds without costing any healing.

#2440 Lrigatonmai

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 08:50 PM

It was a general statement, not about Anub specifically. And yes in that particular case it can vary quite greatly - if a druid is only PC healing then the opposite will happen, can happen that you don't generate aggro for a long time. Personally I don't see why you'd roll rejuvs for leech healing but, whatever works.


The main reason for using a druid instead of a paladin on Algalon is mobility. Depending on the tank healing setup having a paladin that has to stop casting for a bit to run over to a black hole could result in tank deaths. I'd assume that would be the reasoning behind any strategy where you'd want a druid instead of a paladin in that role.

edit: re: Anub. We have all our healers stack so it doesn't matter which one of us gets the aggro. If you guys are actually having trouble with which healer gets it there are better solutions than adding buffs or shuffling talents.




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