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Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion


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#21 Eulolia

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 09:50 PM

As silly as it looks, if the fight doesn't have any strict positioning requirements (hardly any do), it's always a good idea to get in melee range of the boss and have your treeform autoattack on. Although casting resets your swing timer, autoattack will remain enabled, which can of course proc OOC and Wisdom (and hit for about 300). Not a huge benefit worth taking any risks for, but most fights in the game seem to allow it risk-free, so go for it. It's also fantastic fun, especially since jumping up and down obviously doesn't affect the swing timer or global cooldown.

#22 Lemanakmelo

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 06:06 PM

I'm not sure if I'm "doing it right" but I find regrowth to be my spell of choice in too many situations. It's fast, it's hefty, it's not horribly inefficient, it procs living seed, and it procs nature's grace. My "heal plan" is Wild Growth where applicable, Lifebloom on tanks and targets taking steady damage and targets that I anticipate will take damage soon, and Regrowth for most everything else. I don't find myself using healing touch due to the speed and I don't find myself using Nourish because...well Regrowth pre-empts Nourish in almost all situations it'd be useful. Am I missing something or is this actually how I should be healing?


I would say it depends a lot on the other healers in your raid and what your job is. If you are low on group healing, you aren't overhealing with regrowth, and you aren't going oom, it's probably a valid thing to do. In my guild there is no way I could manage a regrowth on players taking light damage, someone else would have them topped up in probably .5-1 seconds, even nourish is unnecessary in my guild. But if you find yourself doing a large portion of the group healing, regrowth is an amazing heal. It does a hefty chunk of health, can proc living seed to protect against further damage, as well as leaving a hot that ticks for a lot these days. And beyond that gives the option of swiftmending for 27 seconds (I believe).

My guess is that if regrowth is working for you now it can only get better once CoH and WG get a cooldown. The only thing I can see "wrong" with regrowth is its 2 second cast time. What I've found since hitting level 80 though is that regrowth is probably better than nourish in 90% of situations, and I would only use Nourish in a situation where I can't swiftmend and would rather save Nature's swiftness, and think the 2s cast of RG is too risky. When I first got nourish I tended to forget about it and just used regrowth, but once in awhile you run into a situation where 2s is too short and 1.5s is just fast enough, and now that I've got used to having a 1.5 second heal I would say I used it probably only a few times per fight, more on fights like KT with the Frost Blast, and less on fights where the damage on a single target is less severe.

But as for the are you "doing it right"? I would go back to your own raid group and your role in the raid, because right now druids can have a variety of roles. We can do group healing, tank healing, spike healing and anywhere in between. I personally am always rolling lb*3 and rj on the main tank, and depending on the fight I am either helping with group healing (Saph 25 man), focusing on the tank (Maexxna), or doing as much healing as Taurenly possible (10 man Saph). And anytime our raids are lacking a paladin healer I tend to pick up slack on the main tank, but that again is just a raid setup thing, because we could probably get a priest to do the same thing (or a shaman :P but this is a point of very much debate in my guild right now).

#23 Mauhan

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 10:22 PM

I've read a whole lot of discussion here and elsewhere on Nourish vs Regrowth and ultimately I'm still not sure of the whole situation. Ultimately I think I'm just not convinced of the holy awesomeness that people ascribe to glyphed Regrowth. I've seen the numbers*, and pre-4T7 glyphed Regrowth comes way out ahead of anything Nourish can put up, but pure numbers are not as convincing for healing as it is for dps. Definitely useful to know, but I see people looking at the numbers and saying "case closed" without any more effort. This doesn't sit well with me.

I think my problem with Regrowth is when I use it. My general healing plan is to get a Lifebloom stack and Rejuv up on the tank. On bosses that hit hard, I'll usually use Regrowth as an extra hot. I did this a lot during BC, though a lot of bosses in Wrath don't have consistently high incoming damage for it to be used this way. Any raid healing I do is done through Wild Growth (except in cases the damage will be healed back by other healers too fast, especially if it's predictable like P1 non-Vortex raid damage in Malygos) and Rejuv.

Going with this, Regrowth would only be useful to bring a tank back up from 60-70% or so to full. If the tank is lower, it's usually Swiftmend or NSHT time. If neither of those are an option, I wouldn't want to trust my tank's life to the extra cast time of Regrowth vs Nourish, so Nourish gets used. Nourish has worse numbers, but if the tank is sitting at 20%, the only thing that matters is getting him back up out of the danger zone ASAP. Even if you want to risk the extra cast time on Regrowth, its impressive numbers are highly, highly driven by the crit rate, and I wouldn't want to cast a Regrowth over Nourish if I'm relying on it to crit to save someone's life.

So really I don't see a very big window to even use Regrowth in such a way that gets a lot of mileage out of the glyph. Bringing the tank back up from ~65% health to near max seems to me like it would be ideal, but I'm not even sure that's a role that a Druid casting Regrowth is even ideal for. I suppose there's always dumping leftover mana the last 5-10% of a boss's health, I suppose, but... :P

While I certainly use Regrowth more often than Nourish, I don't really see the spells as competing for the same niche. Regrowth's many strengths over Nourish do not matter when you're in a situation that Nourish is particularly well-suited for.

Ultimately I'm just left a little confused at what people are seeing in Regrowth that makes it so impressive. The numbers are great, but healing is more than just the numbers. Am I missing something, i.e. some role that would put Regrowth more in the spotlight for me and my raid?

*The numbers on Regrowth in particular I do have some quibbles with, but that's another post by itself. Short version has to deal with averaging out 82937234 variables over time, which doesn't have a whole lot of weight when the RNG aligns itself against you and Bad Things happen. Consistency is a very valuable and apparently somewhat underrated concept in healing.

#24 Lemanakmelo

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 07:12 AM

I agree with you Mauhan in the tank healing situation you stated.

If you look at the tank's health and you haven't cast anything yet, and he's in the moderate danger zone (probably from 40-70% depending on the fight) I would cast nourish.

The times I would cast regrowth are if I am a primary tank healer, and he is taking steady damage but isn't in the danger zone yet. For example on Maexxna when she frenzies, and the tank dips to say 50%, I would probably swiftmend first. If swiftmend is on cooldown, I nourish, if I swiftmend and the tank is still at risk, I nourish. Now once nourish/swiftmend/nature's swiftness has brought the tank to somewhere safer like 80%, I would probably want to regrowth, because it's higher HPS.

This is the way I see it. basically regrowth is better if you have time, but if you don't think you have 2s to finish regrowthing, and you can't swiftmend, you nourish.

This is sort of the way I think about healing, a different heal for the risk the person has of dying within a small period of time. My general priority goes, from most to least at risk of immediate death: NS-HT>Swiftmend>Nourish>Regrowth>Wild Growth>Lifebloom>Rejuvenation.

#25 turlockmike

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 07:19 AM

Ultimately I'm just left a little confused at what people are seeing in Regrowth that makes it so impressive. The numbers are great, but healing is more than just the numbers. Am I missing something, i.e. some role that would put Regrowth more in the spotlight for me and my raid?


You can do the math or tests yourself if you like, but the fact is that glyphed regrowth is a better heal than nourish (without t7 bonus) for keeping up a tank. Why? It's not only more HPS (by about 500), but its more HPM (9 compared to 7) and less HPS. When I did the statistics I did not even include the hot that you get with regrowth that you don't get with nourish. Why is regrowth better? Because it has a 50% chance to crit. Nough said.

On a personal experience note, I've been testing regrowth vs nourish and here's what I've come up with.

If the tank does not have regrowth, cast regrowth becuase it heals for a good amount and puts a hot on the target.

If the tank does have regrowth, cast regrowth on the target cause it heals for more, refreshes the hot, and heals for more and doing more hpm.

I did find one spot for nourish, which was between pulls on the tank when I don't want put a hot on the tank, then again we chain pull so it doesn't matter.

#26 turlockmike

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 07:21 AM

Oh the other reason is because the developers have already realized that people know that regrowth is better. They plan on improving nourish in the future and adding a glyph for it to give it a spot on druids rotations.

#27 Mauhan

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 11:07 AM

You can do the math or tests yourself if you like, but the fact is that glyphed regrowth is a better heal than nourish (without t7 bonus) for keeping up a tank. Why? It's not only more HPS (by about 500), but its more HPM (9 compared to 7) and less HPS. When I did the statistics I did not even include the hot that you get with regrowth that you don't get with nourish. Why is regrowth better? Because it has a 50% chance to crit. Nough said.


Depending on the situation, Regrowth spam vs Nourish spam with Regrowth already on actually puts the HoT portion in favor of Nourish use. But I'm not arguing that Nourish is better numberwise. I already said Regrowth wins there.

I think what it boils down to is that I see a valid use for Nourish (OMG must heal tank now, but Swiftmend and NS/HT are down) which cuts into what used to be Regrowth's niche. I don't see very many opportunities to really put Regrowth and it's glyph to ideal use, though, and that isn't in line with all the fanfare a lot of people make over it.

Maybe it's due in part to me usually being paired with a Paladin healer in 10 mans? I'm not sure, really, but I don't see myself being the one best suited to bringing a tank's HP back up in big chunks. It doesn't mesh well with the old philosophy of serving primarily as a buffer on tank HP, which IMO has only got stronger in Wrath raiding where bosses, in general, seem to be less of a direct threat to the tank.

Anyway, I do support a plan to buff Nourish, as it needs to be more comparable in the numbers section regardless (and especially so independent of the 4 piece T7 bonus, which won't last long into Wrath). I'm curious to see what Blizzard would come up with for a glyph for it. Hearing Druids say they don't even have the spell bound makes me cringe, though.

I'll have to start comparing WWS reports to see if I'm casting a significantly lower number of Regrowths or something. I'm beginning to suspect this discrepancy is somewhat only in my head, since I do see a valid use for it thus making the Regrowth glyph a solid option. Maybe I'm casting it just as much as others, but without their accompanying glee. I'll have to look into this. :P

Though... I still say numbers aren't as meaningful for healing as they are for DPS! That would make for a more productive post, most likely, but I don't know if the interest is there.

#28 Raikagi

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 06:56 PM

Oh the other reason is because the developers have already realized that people know that regrowth is better. They plan on improving nourish in the future and adding a glyph for it to give it a spot on druids rotations.


GC has said that they're considering adding Wild Growth to the spells that give it the 20% bonus. That would be nice and make it a pretty useful spell for handling party damage in my book. Wild Growth the party then use Nourish to top off the lowest members of the group. Sometimes I find that using Regrowth can be dangerous if it doesn't crit. Of course it crits more often than not, but if you get an unlucky streak 2s feels very slow, especially if you need to get everyone in the group up ASAP, or the tank is taking big hits.

If they're adding a glyph for Nourish, personally I'd love to see it refresh one of our HoTs, maybe Rejuvination.

#29 Vazu

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 04:48 PM

I really believe the intended use for Nourish has been watered down by Glyph of Regrowth. Furthermore, many of the advocates of that spell (in this thread) are specc'd for 3/3 Living Seed. That talent is already crappy (as it is), but it's made even more worthless when your crit % is ~ 20% and not ~ 70%. Even on a fight where I was MT healing using purely Regrowth (as my direct heal), Living Seed only accounted for 4% of my total healing. Seed would be even less effective if I was throwing Nourish in there.

Honestly I just don't see the arguement for using Nourish, even in situations where it's warranted. Is your reaction time really fast enough to decide between using Regrwoth with Nature's Grace up, or Nourish? I don't think Nourish is a bad spell. I'm just not sure it's necessary. Nobody has shown me so far why it's an important part of our healing arsenal. What makes it good? Haste is abundant in Wrath gear. I'm raiding with + 18% haste from gear, talents and raid buffs. The strength of Nourish is supposed to be speed. Trouble is, with haste, Nature's Grace and the ~ 70% crit rate of Regrowth, it just marginalizes Nourish.

#30 malthrin

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 04:52 PM

Right, the only argument that I've seen for Nourish is that sometimes you just don't have the extra .5s to Regrowth. Two counterpoints to that:
1) If the tank is taking enough damage that he'll die in less than two seconds, do you really want to be casting a 5k heal instead of 8k + Living Seed?
2) What on earth were you doing that let the tank get so low, or that you didn't predict the damage?

#31 kywirelessguy

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:14 PM

Edit: Horrible

#32 Playered

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:33 PM

In a perfect situation where there is no overhealing etc Regrowth(Glyphed) will pump out higher HPS than Nourish(4t7) by about 500-700 HPS.
However the chance of you having this situation is unrealistic and Regrowth diminishes at a faster rate than Nourish to the point where it really doesn't matter what you decide at this stage of the game.

The 'best' form of healing will probably boil down to weaving Nourish inbetween Regrowth ticks then landing Regrowth right after a tick or something but that is even more anal retentive than what Hunters used to do.

Provided that Nourish eventually gets a Glyph which increases its output then it will become unquestionably superior for tank healing.

#33 Anaram

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:39 PM

Right, the only argument that I've seen for Nourish is that sometimes you just don't have the extra .5s to Regrowth. Two counterpoints to that:
1) If the tank is taking enough damage that he'll die in less than two seconds, do you really want to be casting a 5k heal instead of 8k + Living Seed?
2) What on earth were you doing that let the tank get so low, or that you didn't predict the damage?


1) Regrowth is not 8k + living seed. It's about 5.5k plus extras if you crit which is in no way guaranteed - you've just got 46% better critical chance than on Nourish.

2) Show me a fight where the tank "doesn't get so low" and I'll show you a fight where it really doesn't matter whether you use Regrowth or Nourish. Or if the damage is 100% predictably timed why not just use healing touch while at it, you get ~9k guaranteed without glyphs - not that the damage often is that predictable.

#34 malthrin

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:58 PM

There are plenty of fights that tanks drop dangerously low, but I think you're overestimating the difference between 1.5 and 2.0 - nothing even swings that fast; odds are that the tank will take 1 melee swing between the start of your cast, whether it's Nourish or Regrowth, and its end. What you're trying to do is ensure he survives the swing after that. If it really is more urgent than that, if you're worried that the tank is going to die to the very next swing, that's when you Swiftmend or NS HT. Both of which heal more, faster, than Nourish.

#35 Vazu

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:11 PM

In a perfect situation where there is no overhealing etc Regrowth(Glyphed) will pump out higher HPS than Nourish(4t7) by about 500-700 HPS.
However the chance of you having this situation is unrealistic and Regrowth diminishes at a faster rate than Nourish to the point where it really doesn't matter what you decide at this stage of the game.

The 'best' form of healing will probably boil down to weaving Nourish inbetween Regrowth ticks then landing Regrowth right after a tick or something but that is even more anal retentive than what Hunters used to do.

Provided that Nourish eventually gets a Glyph which increases its output then it will become unquestionably superior for tank healing.

..and really, if people are focused on using Nourish when Nature's Grace isn't up and weaving that into our direct healing rotation, doesn't that greatly diminish our role? I mean, we can tank heal, but we're so much more useful rolling HOTs than we are trying to decide how best to single target heal efficiently. Blizzard's whole "let's make things even" philosophy with Wrath is confusing sometimes. We really didn't need a spell like Nourish. Regrowth is plenty fast, especially with Nature's Grace. Ask yourself honestly, would you really miss Nourish if Blizzard suddenly decided to get rid of it?

#36 GregGates

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:52 PM

The current state of Druid healing is very exciting to me as my character approaches 80. The last time I healed in raid fashion on my Druid was 2005, the era of downranked HTs, very few player buffs and precise breaks. The number of rich talents and options available to us now is rather joyous, but ah that's 3.0 (OoC alone is incredible).

During the leveling curve I have healed many instance runs, first as pure Balance and more recently as 5x/0/11. I realize these instances are easy, but it has helped get me back into the swing of mouse binds (CastParty was what I first used in 2004 on my Priest and then again on Druid, now using Grid + Clique). The glyphed HTs are good fun, especially with the .5 crit reductions.

If you could only see my face when I read comments about using Regrowth as a main repeat heal. It will take time for me to get accustomed to this concept.

I am drawn to Lifebloom and fast HTs at this current moment in time. The WG change seems excellent, though it baffles me to see Blizzard treating these two spells as if they are the same.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in the discussion.

#37 Playered

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:00 PM

The intention was for useful information about Addons (ie: Clique is good because it lets you x/y/z which saves you time by allowing you to a/b/c faster) to be mentioned, not for people to give their personal thoughts about why their addon is better and all their horrible key bindings.

If you really want to go into that horrible direction please make a new thread to litter instead and if you are unable to make one then really I'm saving you infractions most likely.

I will update the first post in order to curb the stupid.

#38 Anaram

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:41 PM

would you really miss Nourish if Blizzard suddenly decided to get rid of it?


I would at least. Nourish is great for healing the raid in some situations and it's definitely my go-to heal for tank healing.

Nourish casts half a second faster than regrowth. Regrowth casts half a second faster than talented healing touch. Adding the casino factor that is regrowth just doesn't seem worth it for tank healing.

#39 Lord BEEF

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 08:48 PM

Glyphed regrowth is better in my opinion because of the obvious fact that it leaves a heal over time effect that heals for something like 7000-12000 over 27 seconds, depending on your gear and whether it's the first cast or not.

Healing for 1000+ every three seconds is no joke and can free you to do other things.

#40 Jaxon

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 10:03 PM

I'm wondering if any more experienced druids can give me feedback. I'm playing a restoration druid after Wrath because of a lack of reliable and non-douche healers available. Last night was my first 10 man raid.

Mostly kept lifebloom on one or two tanks, with rejuvenation and Regrowth when there was need for more heals.

The only time I ran into problems was on Kel'thuzad when I couldn't keep the guardian tank up while he was in an ice block.

Stasis Logs are here and specific fight logs are here. The raid will be the one from December 28th. My druid's name is Canoodles and an armory link is available
.

Because a lot of my healing has been intuited from skill/talent descriptions, I'm wondering if there is anything obvious (to lifetime druids) that I'm missing. I've spent a lot of time reading these forums and others to get a wide variety of views.




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