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Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion


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#41 moxy

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 10:49 PM

There are at least 2 very specific and perhaps obvious uses for nourish in raids: in heavy tank healing situations where you have between 1.5 and 2 seconds left on your LB stack; and KT iceblock, an ability that almost seems to have been specifically designed to give nourish a use.

#42 Helius

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 10:52 PM

I'm wondering if any more experienced druids can give me feedback. I'm playing a restoration druid after Wrath because of a lack of reliable and non-douche healers available. Last night was my first 10 man raid.

Mostly kept lifebloom on one or two tanks, with rejuvenation and Regrowth when there was need for more heals.

The only time I ran into problems was on Kel'thuzad when I couldn't keep the guardian tank up while he was in an ice block.

Stasis Logs are here and specific fight logs are here. The raid will be the one from December 28th. My druid's name is Canoodles and an armory link is available
.

Because a lot of my healing has been intuited from skill/talent descriptions, I'm wondering if there is anything obvious (to lifetime druids) that I'm missing. I've spent a lot of time reading these forums and others to get a wide variety of views.


Just what I can gather from the death log:
Kel'thuzad try 4

If you expand Wonkey you can watch his death.

He starts out in that small timeframe as -3kish HP. It looks as though either #1 you hadn't stacked your LB's or Rejuv's before he picked up the Guardians or #2 you let your LB's drop off.

@3.4 he was -3.6k
@4.1 you got your last LB on him
@5.6 you got a Rejuv on him
@8.2 he died to a hit after 3 Frost Blasts

My advice would be to closely monitor when the Guardians are coming out and get your hots stacked before he picks them up OR make sure to not let your hots fall off in the first place. On top of that you *should* have landed a Regrowth but your other healer should have pumped a Regrowth on him as soon as he gained the Frost Blast. ON TOP OF THAT your other healer (a druid) should have had at the very least 3 lb stacks on that tank too. Same lesson for him too, hot him up before the adds spawn.

Remember as a druid you have to allow time to get your hots up if possible and always keep them refreshed if possible. That lesson alone would have yielded purples on that last try.

#43 Fallenangel

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 10:54 PM

There's no way you're getting regrowth crits for 5.5k in a raid setting. With a flask and a stacked illustration, but no raid buffs, I'm hitting regrowths at around 4.8k and crits accordingly around the 7.2k mark. With the glyph you'll see crits close to 9k, and it's really not hard to always have a regrowth hot on the tank constantly.
Really though your best bet is SM. It heals for stupid amounts (8.3k noncrits with the same setup as above) and is on a very short cooldown. Would be nice if they fixed / changed it to always be based on the rejuv hot if you have the glyph, but that's my only gripe with it.

#44 Jaxon

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 10:56 PM

My advice would be to closely monitor when the Guardians are coming out and get your hots stacked before he picks them up OR make sure to not let your hots fall off in the first place. On top of that you *should* have landed a Regrowth but your other healer should have pumped a Regrowth on him as soon as he gained the Frost Blast. ON TOP OF THAT your other healer (a druid) should have had at the very least 3 lb stacks on that tank too. Same lesson for him too, hot him up before the adds spawn.

Remember as a druid you have to allow time to get your hots up if possible and always keep them refreshed if possible. That lesson alone would have yielded purples on that last try.


Thanks for the feedback. I had let Lifeblooms drop off Wonkey after having my attention diverted. The last couple Kel'Thuzad attempts were pretty horrible and I know now that I was forgetting things(Nature's Swiftness!) due to be tired and lack of experience.

#45 Helius

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 10:57 PM

There are at least 2 very specific and perhaps obvious uses for nourish in raids: in heavy tank healing situations where you have between 1.5 and 2 seconds left on your LB stack; and KT iceblock, an ability that almost seems to have been specifically designed to give nourish a use.


With my grid setup or proper debuff setup on raid frames you can easily Regrowth frost blast. Its 26% of health every second for 4 seconds. Assuming you're keeping ppl healed up for the most part that's really all you need.

As far as tank healing. Refresh LB first then get back into regrowth. If you're w/i 2 seconds of your LB dropping off... lag alone will penalize you for using a nourish first.

#46 leeroytull

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:23 PM

I would agree with most of the forrest in here about nourish being second to your regrowth. However I am certainly glad Blizzard has blessed us with another button to use if so we choose.

All points being valid I would be content to let the dust grow on that particular page of my spell book. Effectivly we went, in BC, from having more or less 3 effective spells to cast, to having a plethora of spells viable in Tree form. I am really just gratefull for the options to use.

*even if i still only use three!

#47 uliko

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 05:02 AM

I'm trying to model living seed. While every crit procs a seed not every seed gets used because the tank did not get hit before you overwrote it with a new one. For example I had 50 RG crits but only 14 seeds last Patchwerk for \ ^1^4/_5_0=28\% efficiency (for lack of a better word). So far the formula I got is

\frac{1}{\left(1+\left(\frac{2*1,20}{Avoidance\%}-\frac{Cast\ time}{2}\right)*\frac{Crit\%}{Cast\ time}\right)}

The first part of the denominator is how much time you have to land heals in between tank hits (with a standard swing speed of 2s with a 20% slowing debuff). The second parts is how many crits per second you get so in total it's the number of crits you'd be expected to get in that gap.

With my stats it gives me 32% on regrowth spam which nearly matches the 28% I had on Patchwerk this week but with only 50 crits the sample size is pretty small so I just blame RNG on the difference. What worries me though is that on nourish it gives me 55% efficiency which does seem pretty low for a spell with only 23% crit. But as most people reported very low healing numbers on seed it could make sense. So I'm looking for input on the formula and what I did right/wrong or if you have a better formula I could use.

4t7 nourish HPS > glyphed RG HPS once I modified the living seed calcs with the above formula while with 100% efficiency RG won by the same margin it now looses out with (around 5%). Also nourish is alot less russian roulette with the tanks life. However, nourish advantage in the HPS department might be partially made up for by the higher spell damage you'd gain by not being locked into 4t7.
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#48 KrinKer

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 07:15 AM

I'm sorry but I really don't understand why people use Nourish at all. There is so much more Synergies (for lack of a better word) with regrowth and even with healing touch. The mere fact that you can Swiftmend your Regrowth should be enough to make anybody want to use regrowth rather than Nourish.

There has been no moments since Lk that I have said or thought that 0.4 seconds would have saved a tank. I a tank dies it's either because I let my hots ticked off or another healer wasn't doing his/her job. And even if I would say that I needed a .4 seconds more I would use Glyphed Ht (which I am using) which is, again, much better than Nourish because it's a whole .5 second faster than Nourish. Most people who use Nourish claim that they use it because it gives them .5 second more to do something, so why stop there and not go for a 1 sec cast spell if you guys need those seconds so badly ? Btw, not saying that people who use Nourish are bad or anything I just don't understand the reasoning behind the "I need 0.5 seconds or the tank will die". I do have a feeling people are trying to "be" another type of healer that we, druids, are not. It's not because we have the tools to be a very efficient mt healer that we should try and do that alone. Pallies will always be better than us and we should keep the role that we've have had since Bc: roll hots and top people off with hots. Granted if you do that you have to realise that you probably won't be at the top of the healing metters but I thought that most people understood that topping the healing metter didn't mean squat.

As for using it to top people off in raid and whatnot, rejuv does a much much better job at it now that it ticks for 15 seconds AND can have replenishment AND can be swiftmended.

On another note, I don't quite understand why people want mana regen so badly as druids. Yeah I have been using my majestic dragon figurine but I would be replacing it if there were any good trinkets that could replace it (thanks blizz itemization btw) but even without it I feel like mana regen is, and has been, a non-issue for druids in LK. Even when I see myself spamming glyphed HT (sartharion 3 drakes learning was fun). I can not think of a moment when either pots or innervate were on Cd and I had no mana left.

#49 uliko

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 07:33 AM

Using nourish does not prevent you from swiftmending or having hots on the tank. Nobody is using it as their premiere raid healing spell, I hope, because our other spells are so much better at it. Nourish is for tank spam and the only thing that matters is HPS and perhaps reliability. It casting .5s faster then regrowth has nothing at all to do with it. With regards to reliability it shouldn't come as any suprise that nourish beats regrowth easily since a non crit regrowth is pretty damn horrible and on HPS it beats it with 4t7.
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#50 Lemanakmelo

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:48 AM

To clarify on what I said earlier about Nourish, because I would put my Nourish use at <1%:

Basically I would only use Nourish:
1) If Swiftmend and NS are on cooldown
2) If I am not the tank healer, and I see the tank is at extreme risk of dying. In this case I would have to assume that someone else has a big heal incoming, and that my Nourish is going to help the tank live until the next hit. Also, if I happen to be the tank healer, there should be no reason for me to use nourish ever, because I should be regrowthing for more hps, and I am unlikely to have SM and NS on cooldown because I probably wouldn't have used it on another raid member. (And about the swing timer thing, even if the boss has a swing timer slow enough that nourish vs regrowth doesn't matter, there are still special boss abilities, and your own GCD to think about)
3) If Nature's Grace isn't up, because if it's up there's hardly a point in using a Nourish that is less than one second and having to wait on a GCD.
4) If there is not a more important way of using my GCD, such as refreshing a lifebloom stack that is about to expire.


On that note, I will argue with the people saying a nourish is useless, because I absolutely have had a situation where the person would have lived if I had nourished instead of regrowthed. The regrowth was fast enough to *hit* the target but not prevent him from dying (due to server/client lag) to a Frost Blast, and he would have lived if I nourished. This was in the first week or two of 10-man Naxx however, so his health and my haste would have been lower, but of course when you aren't overgeared for a fight is precisely when the nourish vs regrowth argument matters.

Sadly so many are incapable of trusting their cast time or their other raid members. There are plenty of other people in your raid that can "oh shit" your tank. If he's down below 20% that often then you should fix other problems. Nine chances out of ten you or your other druid buds let hots fall off, a pally assigned to the tank is busy FoL weaving, a priest is too busy blowing his load by slaming the left half of his keyboard raid healing when a Shaman could do it more efficiently.

I must disagree with Helius on this point, because if you assume someone else will save the tank you might be wrong, and if you let the tank die it's almost a guaranteed wipe, and that therefore makes whatever else you were doing (raid healing, saving mana, whatever) less important.

#51 Nilaus

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:57 AM

I think people are overestimating the use of Nourish. Not every spell is designed for raid use and I think Nourish is specifically designed for 5 mans.

In BC it was hard to single heal a heroic in non-raid gear because 3*LB+Reju+RG just didn't cut it in the harder hitting encounters. As such it was harder for Druids to start heroics, than other healers. A lot of druids were asking for a fast direct heal to cast when all HoTs were applied.

In 5man heroics I still find it quite useful: Apply HoTs and cast Nourish when needed (saving Swiftmend for emergencies).

I know this is EJ boards, but not everything Blizzard does is designed for the cutting edge. Some of us actually live outside endgame instances :)
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#52 uliko

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 01:12 PM

Also, if I happen to be the tank healer, there should be no reason for me to use nourish ever, because I should be regrowthing for more hps [...]

See, that's where you're wrong. Once you take into account that living seed overwrites itself most of the time regrowth is not more hps then nourish with 4t7. Nearly everyone spends 11 (14 with natural perfection) talent points and a major glyph dedicated to regrowth so it shouldn't come as a suprise that it's a good spell. However, for tank healing nourish, with 4t7, is the superior spell of choice. If not for the additional hps (6430 nourish vs 6199 regrowth) with 2800sp/19% crit/24,6% haste then use nourish for its reliability since in the worst case scenario, no crits, nourish still pulls 5483 while regrowth plummets to 3837. Granted it does not happen very often there will be times when it does. Healing is not so much about the average case like dps, it's the worst case that matters. This is also why most, non mana, procs are relatively useless for healing.
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#53 Raikagi

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 01:30 PM

Granted it does not happen very often there will be times when it does. Healing is not so much about the average case like dps, it's the worst case that matters. This is also why most, non mana, procs are relatively useless for healing.


I agree with this, as well as the post above, Nourish is not really intended as a raiding spell, it's there to fill out a Druids arsenal when they are the sole healer, so heroics. I've been using Nourish more and more because of it's reliability. Sometimes there are cases when I really need to heal the tank hard and the Regrowth casino fails me horribly with no crits for 4-5 casts. A Nourish does more than a non crit Regrowth, it's guaranteed and you've got a chance of doing more than you need which is nice.

I've come to lean on Regrowth as a crutch, using it in basically any situation where a group member has less than 70% HP and I'm trying to get out of that habit, because there have been times where if I just used Nourish instead things would've gone smoother.

But yes, in a raiding situation you'll have Priests and Paladins to fill the role you'd use Nourish for so of course you won't use it, it's definiteyl not useless though and I would miss it if it was removed. Having a glyph to further give it a unique role wouldn't hurt though, and Blizzard have made mention that it's planned so we'll see what comes of that.

#54 Myrskytuuli

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 02:29 PM

Edit: the above poster says most things I was writing, please remove this one as not necessary.

#55 Playered

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:03 PM

I've come to lean on Regrowth as a crutch, using it in basically any situation where a group member has less than 70% HP and I'm trying to get out of that habit, because there have been times where if I just used Nourish instead things would've gone smoother.

But yes, in a raiding situation you'll have Priests and Paladins to fill the role you'd use Nourish for so of course you won't use it, it's definiteyl not useless though and I would miss it if it was removed. Having a glyph to further give it a unique role wouldn't hurt though, and Blizzard have made mention that it's planned so we'll see what comes of that.


In what cases does using Nourish on random raid/group members (undoubtably without HoTs) end up superior to using Regrowth, Rejuvenation or Wild Growth? If the damage doesn't matter then WG or HoTs when you have time will do it much easier. If they need healing up fast then its pretty certain that they will need healing again soon in which case the additional HoTs will be much more beneficial than throwing off some very inferior Nourishes.

I don't get why people throw Nourish off as a 5 man tool, it has an obvious use as a tank heal in raiding because it ends up being equal or superior to Regrowth (mostly based on 4t7) already - the problem is there is almost no encounter where it matters yet so we are stuck on opinions and theorycraft and in both cases it really doesn't matter yet.

The only problem with counting on the Glyph to boost Nourish in the future is that we will most likely end up being unable to retain the 4t7 bonus at this stage so it comes down to a moot point unless the Glyph is really very good (20%+ boost).

#56 Raikagi

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:15 PM

In what cases does using Nourish on random raid/group members (undoubtably without HoTs) end up superior to using Regrowth, Rejuvenation or Wild Growth? If the damage doesn't matter then WG or HoTs when you have time will do it much easier. If they need healing up fast then its pretty certain that they will need healing again soon in which case the additional HoTs will be much more beneficial than throwing off some very inferior Nourishes.


I like keeping the DPS topped off at all times, sometimes bad things happen and someone takes a lot of damage quickly, you don't want people hovering around 60% while HoTs tick just in case. I've been using Regrowth but as I said, sometimes it just doesn't crit and topping up the group with some 2s Regrowths and some 1.5s Regrowths that overheal by 50% seems inefficient when you can use Nourish more reliably and usually get back to healing the tank quicker. If they go through with adding Wild Growth to the spells that give Nourish it's bonus it will be even better for this role since the number 1 limiting factor for Nourish is having to cast a HoT on the target first to get your bang for your buck, and if you're casting a HoT then a Nourish then you might as well just cast a Regrowth. In 5 man situations I usually have a Rejuv sitting on anyone who might take damage in the near future, melee on Skadi for instance, so it's not that bad.

But as you said it's mostly just opinion and theorycraft at this point, obviously I've been just fine using Regrowth whenever, and I guess most other Druids have been as well, but when I've tried Nourish I've found that I'm able to more accurately gauge when I can get back to the tank, where a few non crit Regrowths can put me behind when I wasn't expecting to take so long to get back to him. It's definitely a niche spell in any case, but not without it's uses.

#57 Trouble

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:16 PM

I think people are overestimating the use of Nourish. Not every spell is designed for raid use and I think Nourish is specifically designed for 5 mans.

...

I know this is EJ boards, but not everything Blizzard does is designed for the cutting edge. Some of us actually live outside endgame instances :)


Raids != cutting edge. They intend for Nourish to have a use in raiding, you can easily glean this much from Blizzard posts on the topic. Right now they are overestimating the usefulness of the spell, or underestimating how great Regrowth is currently. I don't see how Nourish is all that much more useful in 5 mans either, aside from you're more likely to have HoTs up on your non-tank targets. Even then Nourish just isn't the clearly better option most of the time.

The problem right now is this: you don't need Nourish on your bars. Yeah people have pointed out the 1% of situations where it is superior, but I'm not seriously putting something on my bar for 1% of situations when the next-best option in that 1% is nearly as good. Regrowth and/or Nourish need some tweaking or a rework. Their uses are too similar and Regrowth is superior in nearly every way and situation.

#58 malthrin

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:30 PM

Not to mention that tying yourself to a set bonus isn't a particularly good idea, and nobody can argue that Nourish is even close to usable without it.

#59 Playered

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 05:07 PM

Indeed, I can understand that Nourish isn't as useless as some people make out, but the fact you need a 4 piece bonus to keep it up there is dubious in regards to GCs statements like:

I think you should take a harder look at Nourish. We received so much feedback on Nourish that I was sort of going along with the conventional wisdom that Nourish didn't fill a large enough role. Since then a few druids have set me straight. It can be a really amazing spell.


Fair enough the masses are mostly complete idiots but if Nourish was really such an 'amazing' spell in at least several scenarios it would of been obvious by this point in time. If these 'few Druids' did not mention the need for 4t7 or lied and said it was fine without it... gosh.


There was also some other responces in this same thread that Regrowth was finally a good spell but it was no Flash Heal and that Nourish was not propped up by enough talents.

Regrowth needed nerfing because it went from a poor spell no one really used to one which got buffed to fit into as many roles as possible in order to get Druids to start using it again.
Eventually it got pushed more towards our 'Flash Heal' spell as we had no other but now that we actually have one they haven't re-edited Regrowth to lessen its potency for this role that it 'borrowed' which is something I believe needs to be done.
Reducing the direct heal and enhancing the HoT would give it a better role as it would fit nicely between RJ and Nourish in terms of raid healing, while boosting it slightly on HPS for the tank as the HoT is stronger.

Nourish was probably looked at cautiously in order to not make our new toy incredibly strong like what happened with Lifebloom but it has needed better incorporation into talents from the times in beta.
Empowered Touch should of always included it because a base HT only boosting spell will never go down well, bumping it up to be like Empowered Healing (Holy Priests) would go nicely into helping it scale beyond Regrowth and making Tranquil Spirit slightly easier to attain (replicate it from Moonglow) would also help.

A 20% bonus spell power boost would give Nourish around a 9% gain and keep it better than Glyphed Regrowth for tank healing even without the 4t7 bonus and it doesn't seem to go wildly over the top in comparison to Glyphed Regrowth at high spell power (5k) either.

I pointed it out in the EU beta forums but oh well at least they are looking at it now..

#60 uliko

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 06:02 PM

A 20% coef boost (multiplicative) would not make nourish keep up without 4t7 until 3150 spellpower which is still some ways off. The whole problem is the RG glyph which is too good. It needs another nerf or change to be hot only because you should want to cast it when the hot is beneficial (or there's no hot for nourish) and not for the direct heal only. Making 4t7 into a nourish glyph would be decent and would keep regrowth as the go-to raid heal due to lack of hot multipliers on random people. A 20% coef boost on emp. HT and 4t7 turned into the nourish glyph (perhaps at 7%/hot) and the base boost recuded to 15% to further solidify nourish as the tank heal and regrowth as our direct heal for the raid. Making emp. HT more attractive might even make HT worth casting when you know there's a big burst incomming on the tank like drake breaths or whatever.

Also living seed needs a to not overwrite itself with a weaker seed, that's stupid.
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