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DW Tanking Builds 3.3 - updated 12/01/10


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#21 Baconslicer

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:03 AM

Math as promised for KM/RS interaction with Glyph of Rune Strike (link), which as of 3.0.8 is a pure 10% increased crit chance for RS.

I'm not going to attempt to model RS availability, since I haven't personally tried DW tanking (and I'm not at home so I can't test it myself today). I'm just going to assume that all of your MH swings get used for RS to get a maximum value here. To get the real value you'll need to adjust down by whatever fraction of your MH swings get used for RS.

Taking the same numbers that Soulsbane used (2.6/1.6 speed, 9% crit buffed, 25% haste):

Attacks/minute:
MH: 23.08
OH: 37.5

Crits/minute
OH: 37.5 * 9% = 4.22
No glyph
MH: 23.08 * 9% = 2.60
Total: 6.81

Glyphed
MH: 23.08 * 19% = 5.48
Total: 9.70

KM procs/minute:
No glyph: 3.41
Glyphed: 4.85

So by using the glyph, you'll get an additional 1.44 KM procs per minute at best; a 42.3% increase. I won't show all the working for 2h since this is the DW thread, but with a 3.6 speed weapon, adding the glyph increased KM from 0.94 PPM to 1.98 PPM, a 111% increase.)

So for ballpark figures, the RS glyph increases the value of KM by as much as 40%ish for DW, 110% for 2h. Multiply this by your RS/(total MH swings) ratio to get the real value; if 50% of your MH swings are replaced by RS, then the glyph improves KM by 20% for DW, 55% for 2h.

EDIT: I see the [item] tag doesn't show up so well for white-quality items.

#22 Barden

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:05 AM

Having tested my 10/54/7 build tonight in some heroics I can say that the damage and thereby threat is very good. Sporting only BoK and HoW I still "won"dps/held good threat in two different setups in four instances. This obviously is in no way proof that it provides enough threat to MT in 25man or w/e but it did give me an indication that there probably won't be any problems once you get all the other sweet buffs, foremost 5% crit.

When my gear is better I can start to leave som high defense gear behind I will try to replace it with str/sta/crit/exp gear to provide better threat.

Another nice thing for me atleast is that the build produces very good DPS in Blood Presence/DPS gear. I am fairly certain I will top the damage meter with this spec in my guilds weekly 10man naxx. For us casuals, who still like to opt gear/spec etc, that is a bonus=) atleast until dual-spec arrives.

#23 JALbert

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:12 AM

The issue with GoG is that it means 43 points have been put into Frost, leaving an insufficient number for the other talents mentioned.



That is your opinion. Without math to back it up, don't expect it to sway me. Impurity is strong for HB because of the multiple stacking percentage buffs. We're already taking an ability that does 280 base damage and managing to make it reach 4-6k and higher. A difference of 10% versus 12.5% is a big deal when it happens before another 10%, 10%, 30%, 200% and possibly 245% after that.



Tanks don't exist in a vaccuum. The AP listed on my armory is without a presence, so it is already short a few hundred. Then boosted with Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, Mark of the Wild, Horn of Winter, etc. As I stated earlier in the thread, aggro is something I am concerned about with switching to dual-wield, so when I post, expect that to be a focus.



It has a delay. You can test it. Stay in Frost Presence. Test your spells. Then shift to Blood Presence. For 15-20s, you will have the damage from the bonus attack power from Frost Presence's armor plus Blood Presence's multiplier.


Wouldn't the delay average out? For all the time you don't get the benefits, you'll also statistically have an equal amount of time with AP that you shouldn't because UA has already worn off but it hasn't updated.

#24 dukes

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:26 AM

I've just been testing the AP update delay on Bladed Armour for the last 5 minutes or so on the PTR (to see if it's been fixed more than anything). The update frequency is almost exactly 30 seconds.

Easy to test:
Open the Blizzard stopwatch timer.
Start in frost presence. Check AP.
Switch to blood presence. Check AP, wait for it to update - as soon as it updates, hit start on the stopwatch and switch to frost presence.
Wait for it to update, check the timer on the stopwatch.

I did this about 10 times checking back and forth between frost and blood, and every 30 seconds it would change my AP. This would mean that you have a fair chance to not have Bladed Armour update while UA is active, but quite a good chance for it to update and give you 30 seconds of increased AP. If you can manage to work out the timer on this (switching presences pre-boss pull or even at the beginning of the instance to start a timer, which you can then refer to at any time to work out when use of UA would be best), then you should be able to use UA every cooldown and always have it give the +AP for 30 seconds. Same goes for trinkets with a 2 minute cooldown (such as the ).

I assume the update frequency is to reduce load on the server more than anything.

#25 Baconslicer

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:43 AM

Interesting. It's probably worth throwing together an addon that logs UNIT_ATTACK_POWER events, just to pin an exact number on it.

#26 Zerath

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 01:21 AM

Just a friendly reminder for all the people popping in to "help" the thread by saying "we held aggro with <said> spec!" - could you *please* post TPS results for averages. That's what this thread boils down to - how much TPS does DW Tank specs actually out put.

Now, back to the fun.

Impurity - it's a wonderful talent but there's too many "filler" I need to get. Now, with 3k AP we're receiving an additional 750 (spell?) damage...which is amazing. This is what it looked like: http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=000000000000

Epidemic may not be as wonderful as we originally thought, plus, with a Frost build it only effects FF seeing as our rotation is starting to leave out PS.

Necrosis...that's some thing I'm waiting judgment on until I get factual numbers. In theory it'll be nice. But then comes SoD (which is amazing for my repair bill) but holds no real factor over other talents we have to pass up.

BCB is filler that increases our Parry Gibbing and is only effected by 1 disease. So, for those talents what did we pass up?

Bladed Armor.
BotN which enables an additional HB every other rotation, with the effect still persisting with Pest - it's a very nice talent for AoE pulls (which is the entire game so far.)
GoG. People are up in arms about this. Increased Crit for 2 moves used constantly by +45% and an extra 6 seconds of mitigation - I'll wait for numbers on this, too.
Tundra Stalker - Exp which we won't need as much with the Frost rotation and increased 10% dmg which makes HB/FS even larger. (IT, too, but it's not a truck.)

Not taking Bladed Armor with Impurity is a large issue seeing as it's roughly 500AP for us. I, for the life of me, can't find a solid spec that has Impurity in it while still grabbing FS..this is the closet I can figure: http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=000000000000

Which leads back to the passing of BotN and BA - missing that HB starts defeating the purpose of grabbing Impurity (Yes, it will effect 2 HB in a row but that 3rd HB...maybe I'm being greedy).

I'm also seeing a mindset of pushing for TPS while mitigation comes second or even third in people's mind. We can't forget about our healers - we don't want them to hate us even more. GoG is very nice for *that* reason and adding in +Crit dmg.

#27 Teme

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 09:38 AM

Posted Image
Posted Image

H UK run showing details for HB, buffs were horns and spell power totem. Not the best numbers as it was just a quick run testing the spec out so I didn't wait for KM procs for alot of trash, but the damage HB does when it crits is more than enough to hold aggro.

With horns up I have 16.XX% crit and KM procs come often.

When I was DPS specced Necrosis was already doing a very low overall percentage of damage, I don't see how its justified for a 5pt talent.

I also agree with the whole mindset about TPS over mitigation, what good is our TPS when we die? Sacrificing all those mitigation talents that ALSO boost AP for filler talents just to get to impurity just doesn't seem worthwhile.

#28 Torn

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:26 AM

Is there a good way to measure threat outside of dungeons? (some kind of target dummy, just for threat?

---
Some math regarding FS vs. DC:

According to [1] the threat values of FS and DC are identical to their damage. DC has an attack power coefficient (APC) of 0.15 according to [2].

Untalented, this means:
FS damage: 60% weapon damage + 150
DC damage: 443 + (AP x 0.15)

Impurity increases the DC APC to ~0.19 (1.25*0.15). Morbidity boosts DC by 15%.
FS gets a bonus damage of 57.3% from Glacier Rot, Black Ice and Tundra Stalker.
Neither FS nor DC can be dodged, parried or blocked. In 3.0.8, FS will consume less RP (if glyphed).

Looking at how DC and FS scale with AP, I came up with this plot:
Posted Image

In case I haven't missed any bonus modifiers, FS seems pretty much A LOT better than DC. This makes reaching Impurity by giving up FS even more questionable.



[1]: Death Knight Threat Values
[2]: DK Attack Power Coefficients

#29 Teme

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:39 AM

Not the mention FS benefits from KM. But either way dropping just GoG is bad enough, anyone have the math comparing 45% critical damage bonus and 25% from AP? Keep in mind GoG also increases IBF duration so even if impurity comes out slightly on top the IBF bonus should at least balance things out, from a tanking perspective anyway.

#30 Asari

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 04:55 PM

Instead of trying to theorycraft about DW tanking, has anyone actually had success tanking all of Naxx 25 or Malygos as a DW tank? Is it even realistic to discuss it at this point and time?

Heroics are one thing. Raids where some people are critting for 20k and you're not are another.

#31 Zerath

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 07:09 PM

Instead of trying to theorycraft about DW tanking, has anyone actually had success tanking all of Naxx 25 or Malygos as a DW tank? Is it even realistic to discuss it at this point and time?

Heroics are one thing. Raids where some people are critting for 20k and you're not are another.


It's rather pointless until patch since DW Frost tanking will be superior. That's why I was keeping questions/thoughts in the Tanking thread until patch.

#32 Asari

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 09:24 PM

It's rather pointless until patch since DW Frost tanking will be superior. That's why I was keeping questions/thoughts in the Tanking thread until patch.


Superior to what?

2h frost tanking is getting a buff as well. In addition the 25 defense skill to two handers probably outweighs any defense benefit you might get from DWing. Of course the counter to this argument is that with two weapons you can put 2% parry on each and still have the defense bonus.

So really it comes down to:

Total tanking stats (stam, dodge, parry, defense, hit, expertise) of DW vs. 2H
Threat generation of DW vs 2H
Damage difference due to parry between DW and 2H

#33 Teme

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:20 PM

Getting extra DEF is not the only reason we DW, its also for KM procs to generate threat. Having a slow 2H trying to proc KM with an already bad 7-8% crit just doesn't work.

#34 Torn

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:50 PM

Superior to what?


I can only guess but I think he means "superior to DW tanking before 3.0.8".

#35 Zerath

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 08:03 PM

Superior to what?


I meant DW Frost Tanking 3.0.8 will be superior than DW Frost Tanking on current Live.

I can only guess but I think he means "superior to DW tanking before 3.0.8".


Correct, sir.

Getting extra DEF is not the only reason we DW, its also for KM procs to generate threat. Having a slow 2H trying to proc KM with an already bad 7-8% crit just doesn't work.


Adding on to this - it's also been shown and proven how any class able to DW it turns out superior than 2H in the long run. Granted, a few of us are "jumping the gun" but it's worth the test to see what happens.

#36 Baconslicer

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 09:10 PM

Adding on to this - it's also been shown and proven how any class able to DW it turns out superior than 2H in the long run.


Yes... for DPS. Warriors can dual-wield, but they don't dual-wield tank, not even for threat-sensitive fights.

#37 Kaylee

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 09:47 PM

Warriors get a large amount of their mitigation from a shield, as well as having abilities like Shield Slam and Shield Wall that require having a shield equipped. If abilities like Rune Strike and Icebound Fortitude required a 2H weapon equipped then nobody would be seriously thinking about DW tanking with a death knight either.

#38 Baconslicer

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 10:14 PM

Right, but the quote I was responding to was saying that DW has always turned out for the best in the long run. It's true that it's always turned out best for DPS, but we only have one historical data point for DW scaling for tanks: warriors.

Basically I don't think that it's valid to claim that DW is inherently better or worse for tanking based on how well it has worked for DPS in the past. If you just want to talk threat, then sure; I suspect DW threat will scale better than 2h threat. But threat isn't all there is to tanking, of course.

#39 Asari

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 12:27 AM

Warriors get a large amount of their mitigation from a shield, as well as having abilities like Shield Slam and Shield Wall that require having a shield equipped. If abilities like Rune Strike and Icebound Fortitude required a 2H weapon equipped then nobody would be seriously thinking about DW tanking with a death knight either.


Rune Strike pretty much does require a 2 hander if you want to seriously consider it as a means of threat generation. Currently my RS crits are 6-10k depending on the fight and armor. A one hander will NEVER do that much. And the frequency of use depends on you getting hit, not a mob avoiding you. So DWing offers no benefit at all as far as rune strike goes.

The only real threat comparison I can see between DW and 2H is the use of Howling blast. But that's going to be the same between them... and OB might do more damage single target than HB (it does for me anyway). FS and RS and all your other strikes will generate higher threat as 2H.

You'll never get hit capped as a DW tank. You can get 9% hit and expertise capped, but that's about it. In order to pick up the skills that DW normally uses to do damage, you have to give up a lot of tanking ability - there just aren't enough talents. Either you drop talents that generate threat through skills in order to increase threat from auto attacks, or vica versa.



I'm curious to see someone try to tank 25 mans as DW post-patch. So far I've yet to see anyone even do heroics successfully without a hunter to misdirect them or just incredibly abysmal DPS in the group. Maybe the no-CD HB will help, but I seriously doubt it.

#40 Omnomnom

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 02:42 AM

Adding on to this - it's also been shown and proven how any class able to DW it turns out superior than 2H in the long run. Granted, a few of us are "jumping the gun" but it's worth the test to see what happens.


Sadly people seem to either forget this, concentrate on current math, or just plainly wish it wasnt true. Its not going to change anytime soon.

Blizzards *basic design* of weapon swing-timers favors dual-wielding in PVE, 2h in pvp. In every class that can do it (where the option is 2h or DW, for the purposes of warrior/paladin tanking, the shield is a weapon) Its built in from the very bottom.

Lower damage on swing but higher swing speed favors extended fighting where there are no surprises. (And there are no 'surprises' in raiding) The consistency of non-2h builds revolves around their predictable output. And raiding is all about reducing anything resembling randomness. Higher damage on swing, but slower swing speed is always going to be more favorable the shorter the combat takes. Which is why 2h builds are much more effective in small groups than raids.

The problem is, without fiddling around with all the extra attacks, there is no possible way *currently* to make 2h damage/threat to the level of a dual-wielder over extended periods of time. Because everything that makes it match it, also increases its effectiveness in the shorter time periods, which then makes it vastly preferable to DW. And thats when the PVP whine starts up. Bumping up the threat but not the damage is a bad idea for obvious reasons.

When they DO fiddle around with the extras trying to balance 2h with DWers, you end up with Ret paladins who bounce up and down the DPS charts everytime they are patched. But the playerbase goes along with it because at least Blizzard *appear* to be doing something, despite knowing perfectly well without a major overhaul of the basic weapon mechanics its not going to solve anything.

And this is what is going to happen to the DK-2h's for the indefinite future. DW'ers will get to a static point sometime soon where they are considered balanced PVE-wise. Especially for the purposes of tanking. They are practically there now. However once the PVP nerfs (and they are coming) start hitting the 2h-builds, the same ping-ponging of effectiveness will carry on.




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