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[Elemental] ESSE stat spreadsheet (updated to 4.0.1)


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#21 Mightyatom

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 06:47 PM

Lrdx,

Thanks for the explanation.

I am under the impression that your Lightning Overload modelling/multiplier is erroneous.

My Lightning Overload model:

719 - 819
+ bonus damage * (2.5 / 3.5 + 0.2)
+ Totem of Hex bonus damage * (2.5 / 3.5)
* 1.09 = Concussion + Glyph of Lightning Bolt
divided by 2


Using 2390 bonus damage + Totem of Hex.

Lightning Overload non-crit proc, no CC: 1646-1701.
Lightning Overload crit proc, no CC: 3442-3556.
Lightning Bolt non-crit, no CC: 3032-3141.

This correlates to about 99.98-99.99% of my in-game lower and upper bound Lightning Bolt and Lightning Overload non-crit and crit procs. It can differ a few damage points due to in-game conversion of floating point to whole integers.

Lightning Overload is using a higher coefficient than Lightning Bolt so you can not use a static multiplier of 10.92%. Indeed you will see your Lightning Overload multiplier to be scaling positively with bonus damage.

Calculating Lightning Overload at .9142857 versus Lightning Overload at .8142857 shows a multiplier of about 10.84% This would be a correct multiplier to use at 2390 bonus damage and having the relic Totem of Hex ONLY if all spells will crit.

After some close observations I also noticed the following.

Having 0 charges of CC up before casting a Lightning Bolt crit will not increase your Lightning Overload spell damage by 10%.
Having 1 charge of CC up before casting a Lightning Bolt will not increase your Lightning Overload spell damage by 10% even if your Lightning Bolt or Lightning Overload crits.
Having 2 charges of CC up before casting a Lightning Bolt will increase your Lightning Overload spell damage by 10%
Lightning Overload will not consume CC charges.

This also causes your Lightning Overload multiplier to scale positively with crit.

In general it would be more correct not to use a multiplier but an actual corresponding simulation or model.

#22 lrdx

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 04:41 PM

I was sceptic that Lightning Overload procs scale better with spell power than standard Lightning Bolts (+0.2/2 coefficient instead of +0.1/2), as it does not feel right, and no one in this site noticed this so far (or the forum's search function suck) so I went testing a bit on the lvl 80 dummy.

First, I've tried shooting at it naked: 0 spell power, to find out the total damage multiplier, what should be
C = (1+0.05+0.04)/2 = 0.545
(0.05 from Concussion, 0.04 from Lightning Bolt Glyph)
The expected range of LO with any coefficient is: from 719*C = 391.855 to 819*C = 446.355
Doing a 10 min shooting, I found that the minimum hit (not crit) was 391 damage, max was 445. The sample is far too small to say anything with 99.99% certainty, but it looks like multiplier everyone assumed is correct, I don't have more time for further testing. (Although it would only need one hit out of the 391-446 range to confute it.)

Next stop, fully geared except Totem of Hex, no buffs, 1925 spell power.
With my original model, the range of the LO procs should have been:
((719 to 819) + (2.5/3.5+0.1)*1925 )*C = 1246,1425 to 1300,6425
With what you suggested:
((719 to 819) + (2.5/3.5+0.2)*1925 )*C = 1351,055 to 1405,555
With an another 10 min casting, min hit was 1353, max was 1403.

Looks like you are right, I'll update the sheets according to this.

I have tried recording CC's effect on LO procs, but I successfully managed to delete the log file before I could parse for it. Lame, huh? :rolleyes:

Edit: I'd like to ask readers to confirm / confute that the LO damage is within the range
((719 to 819) + (2.5/3.5+0.2)*spellpower )*(1+concussion+LB glyph)/2


#23 lrdx

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 12:43 AM

Mainly readability changes, all formula should be straightforward now, but there are a few logic changes:

  • Lightning Overload is modelled as separate spells, instead of a flat modifier to LB / CL.
  • Removed hit calculation, that column was basically just a copy of the base column.. You should be hit capped before anything, anyway. Hit value is derived from other stats, modelling if you can replace a hit gem to another type.
  • Removed Thunder Capacitor calculation. Will be coming back soon with other trinkets.
  • Reverted setting Talents/Raid composition via a calculator link. Was a nice idea, but the old way is faster.


#24 Mightyatom

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 12:20 PM

Lrdx,

Thanks for the update.

I have been playing around with your spreadsheet comparing it to my own model and I was able to fix some of my own errors through that.

At the moment I'm using a basic priority rotation in my simulation with the option of waiting for Lava Burst which seems to be benefical up to even 0.5 seconds of wait time at my current interaction of bonus damage, haste and crit rating. Adding Chain Lightning cast on CD lowers DPS, also evident by your spreadsheet. I will try to find out a way to use Chain Lightning intelligently. For example, I feel casting Chain Lightning before FS or Lava Burst to be a bad move since it reduces your chance of getting LO versus a LB-LO and that reduces chance of getting CC uptime before Lava Burst cast.

I saw some "questions" in the red fields and I believe I have answered the question about how LO interacts with CC in my previous post already. Also, Totem of Hex does add bonus damage to LB-LO and CL-LO.

I was wondering how much chance Chain Lightning has to proc LO on 1st, 2nd and 3rd target. Seems you put it at 13% for 1st target. You did any testing on this? I have been to lazy so far. Also it's nice to see you have noticed that LO from Chain Lightning is just half damage, calculated at the normal Shamanism coefficient of 10% instead of 20% for LO from Lightning Bolt.

About Call of Thunder affecting LO. If Blizzard has any consistency in their tooltip's, which I believe they generally have. It would be logical to assume that LO is affected by Call of Thunder since LO is a second similair spell to the one casted.

#25 Mightyatom

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 11:03 PM

Binkenstein,

If you look back to my 2nd post in this topic you will see some of my "comments" at the end relating to CC bonus spell damage being applied to Lightning Overload.

After close observations I only saw CC bonus spell damage being applied to Lightning Overload only when 2 charges of CC were up before the casting of the spell Lightning Overload was following. In this case it was only tested with Lightning Bolt. I'd be happy for you to confirm it.

hit hit crit+lo (no cc-bonus spell damage applied)
hit crit hit+lo (cc-bonus spell damage applied)
crit hit hit+lo (no cc-bonus spell damage applied)

#26 lrdx

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:48 PM

I was wondering how much chance Chain Lightning has to proc LO on 1st, 2nd and 3rd target.


This is a rough assumption (that's why it's red). The idea was that, before the LO buff, CL had the 20% proc chance only when it was hitting 3 targets. If it hit only one target, proc chance was around 7-8%. 8/20*33 = 13.2%, and with 13% chance the probability of not proccing for 3 targets is (1-0.13)^3 = 0.65, aligns well with the 33% overall proc.

As for the other reds, I had done no testing on them, that's why I left them as open questions.

I can't see any reason why overload procs of LB would have different scaling than normal LB casts


My understanding is that Lightning Overload procs makes the shaman cast another spell: Overload LB or Overload CL. These spells are indeed appearing in the parses if you use World of Logs, StatisCL, etc. Their base damage is the half of the normal LB and CL (only rounded), and as pre-shamanism tests showed, they have a SP coefficient of 35.7% and 28.6% - or how we calculated back then, you take the normal LB/CL, apply spellpower with the normal 71.4%/57.1% coefficient, and take the half of the damage.

Now Shamanism simply increase the coefficient of all Lightning Bolts, including these, that's how it became 45.7%, instead of half of the normal, Shamanism-enhanced LB's (71.4+10)%.

#27 tufy

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 09:53 AM

This is a rough assumption (that's why it's red). The idea was that, before the LO buff, CL had the 20% proc chance only when it was hitting 3 targets. If it hit only one target, proc chance was around 7-8%. 8/20*33 = 13.2%, and with 13% chance the probability of not proccing for 3 targets is (1-0.13)^3 = 0.65, aligns well with the 33% overall proc.


I can confirm the approximately 13% proc chance on single target, as I've been doing extensive testing of this just after the proc chance was changed.
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#28 lrdx

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 11:39 PM

Made a few more tweaks, here is the heads up:

  • Added a trinkets tab. Hopefully added all Wrath caster DPS trinkets, let me know if you miss something.
  • Changed Lightning Overload calculation with Clearcasting, as Mightyatom suggested. Didn't make a thorough testing, but I haven't seen any data contradicting this in any of my raid logs.
  • Removed some "questions". (Thanks to Tufy and a guild mate of mine)

As always, any general comment is welcome.

#29 wuzup4jc

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 04:23 PM

OK so here is my gear: The World of Warcraft Armory

I have used your spreadsheet a few times now and it seems to think i should be breaking 4k dps....I agree...but the only time i ever get that high is when all trinkets have popped and heroism is up. I just don't get these 5 - 6k dps elemental shamans out there. I have looked everywhere and can't seem to figure out how to get that high. There was an elemental shaman in my group the one day with the same gear (maybe one or two upgrades) and he was pulling 5.5k dps. I talked to him and i was doing the same things he was...same glyphs...same priority rotation ...everything. it was all single target dps on 25 man Patch and my computer can run WoW on ultra in any 25 man setting so its not lag / computer issues....i just don't get it.

One last thing, I just tried to dl the new version of this spreadsheet. I am getting =B3+QUANT in C2 and a bunch of <#>+QUANT formulas. Also Im getting a File Error: Data may have been lost. Ive tried exporting it 3 times. Im using Office 2007....could the latest excel be breaking it?

EDIT: Yeah so the latest Excel was sorta breaking it...it didnt like working with the tags....i fixed it now...and it says i should be doing about 5k dps....ha.....im obviously doing something wrong :\

#30 Shadovv

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 03:10 AM

OK so here is my gear: The World of Warcraft Armory

I have used your spreadsheet a few times now and it seems to think i should be breaking 4k dps....I agree...but the only time i ever get that high is when all trinkets have popped and heroism is up. I just don't get these 5 - 6k dps elemental shamans out there. I have looked everywhere and can't seem to figure out how to get that high. There was an elemental shaman in my group the one day with the same gear (maybe one or two upgrades) and he was pulling 5.5k dps. I talked to him and i was doing the same things he was...same glyphs...same priority rotation ...everything. it was all single target dps on 25 man Patch and my computer can run WoW on ultra in any 25 man setting so its not lag / computer issues....i just don't get it.

One last thing, I just tried to dl the new version of this spreadsheet. I am getting =B3+QUANT in C2 and a bunch of <#>+QUANT formulas. Also Im getting a File Error: Data may have been lost. Ive tried exporting it 3 times. Im using Office 2007....could the latest excel be breaking it?

EDIT: Yeah so the latest Excel was sorta breaking it...it didnt like working with the tags....i fixed it now...and it says i should be doing about 5k dps....ha.....im obviously doing something wrong :\


Well to start with your gemming is horrible. You are well over the hit cap so those hit gems do nothing at all, you would get more benefit putting a green spellpower gem. Also you use MP5 gems which you should never ever seen on an elemental shaman as we shouldn't really ever go oom.

The real 'secret' between average and good ele dps is being able to use your fire DPS totems. Of course you should only do this is the buffs from totem of wrath are already covered, but always take advantage of your other totems if this is the case. The 3% crit from your totem does not stack with the same buff provided by a ret pally, and the spellpower is less than that provided by a demonology warlock. So if both of those are present, drop a searing or magma totem for additional personal dps, as your totem of wrath is doing nothing whatsoever.

So to boost your dps;
Use straight spellpower gems where possible, spellpower/haste gems where yellow socket bonus is worth getting, spellpower/stam gems if you need to satisfy meta requirements
Don't use cheap enchants - it won't make a huge difference but its a personal hate of mine seeing people using sub-optimal enchants. Grind exalted with sons of hodir for a better shoulder enchant, grab an epic leg patch for 15 more spellpower and enchant 10stats on your chestpiece.
Remember to only refresh flame shock just before a lava burst - you should get 2 lvb casts off in the duration of one flame shock, but just keep firing off lightning bolts and dont bother refreshing FS until a second before you can lvb again

Other than that I guess it just comes down to practice, good luck.

#31 wuzup4jc

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:55 PM

Thanks a lot. Seriously it was insightful. So for yellow gems you would say haste > crit? and only if the socket bonus is worth keeping eh? Well I can agree with that. Do you bother throwing in chain lightning into your mix? Unfortunately A) my guild doesnt have any demo locks...only destro....B) no other ele shammies so no luck on getting another totem of wrath dropped. So i pretty much drop my ToW every time except for when its a group >= 4 mobs then i drop my magma.

So in recap ill change up my gems to maximize spellpower / and then see what i can do about upgrading my enchants ;).

Thanks for the help :)

#32 lrdx

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:36 PM

The link to the sheet is changed so update your bookmarks! On the old link you can still access the previous version.

- Added preliminary support for procs/on-use items: There are currently Bloodlust, Elemental Mastery, the new totem's proc, Orc/troll racial. Trinkets are still only modelled on their separate page.
- Added T9 and a bunch of trinkets.
- Small tweaks here and there.

Cooldowns are currently calculated like they won't overlap. This is not what you usually want to do (rather blow all cooldowns together), this is for easy calculation. (Any idea trying to model procs running together is welcome.) Due to this, don't worry if the no-cooldown part's "up-time" is negative; that means you cannot possibly avoid overlapping, not like this is what you want to do.

#33 Dangeres

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 04:25 AM

We're sorry, [name]@gmail.com does not have permission to access this spreadsheet.

You are signed in as [name]@gmail.com, but that email address doesn't have permission to access this spreadsheet. (Sign in as a different user or request access to this document)

Is it currently locked?

#34 lrdx

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 10:57 AM

Meh. Note to self: Press apply before closing the browser tab, after setting up permissions. It should work now.
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#35 Koyah

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 07:23 PM

Whenever I set "Is Troll" to True 2.75 is subtracted from the value of int, sp, haste, and crit which results in them all going negative.

#36 lrdx

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:38 AM

Fixed, thank you.
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#37 lrdx

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 05:02 PM

I have finally updated the calculator to 3.3.

Just like at 3.2, the link has changed, here's the new one:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApclvbTTjpCDdFp2T3RoWWl5blFSWlNZZHdmS2xJSWc&hl=hu


To support the new T10 set bonuses, I had to redo the "rotation" part of the sheets from scratch. This (plus the fact I had less time than I would like for this) sadly means that the current rotation does not include Chain Lightnings, for now. Also the support for troll and orc racial is gone for now. The complexity of this stuff suggest me to move on to a simulator, or - like for resto shamans - a combat log parser for future elemental shaman theorycraft...

Was a late feature of the 3.2 sheets too, although I did not announce it here, that there is a "hit helper" tab, where you can optimize your gear for loosing the least possible DPS stats to be hit capped. Usage is like: fill your candidate items' stats plus the few extra settings in the yellow fields, then play around with the blue fields - put true or false in them to select candidate item #2 for that slot - expected DPS is in the low-right corner.

Support for Flame Nova is missing, I need some theorycrafting on how that thing works for all possible amounts of targets, what is the SP coefficient, etc. etc.

I have made a Google Docs folder for the calculator, where you will always find the latest and all older versions, I suggest to update your links to this: https://docs.google....3YTMzOTIy&hl=hu (The link above is a direct link to the spreadsheet)
My elemental shaman sheets: ESSE

#38 Zamir

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 05:47 PM

Support for Flame Nova is missing, I need some theorycrafting on how that thing works for all possible amounts of targets, what is the SP coefficient, etc. etc.


Assuming you mean Fire Nova, the coefficient should be (and seems to be, though I've not properly tested it yet) 21.43%, and for damage boosts it should get 15% from call of flame and 20% from improved fire nova (the concussion tooltip doesn't say that it affects Fire Nova). It also procs, consumes and fully benefits from clearcasting (one single charge per cast, no matter how many targets are hit). And as it's AoE, the total damage caused per cast is capped at the equivalent of 10 targets.
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#39 lrdx

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 06:24 PM

Assuming you mean Fire Nova, the coefficient should be


Yeah, ment that. Have you (or anyone) tested it's damage on single (and while at it, any number < and > than 10) targets? I somehow have the feeling it's not always 10x(tooltip+SP*coefficient), ive seen numbers that suggest it's even better for single target than LB, an other numbers that tell it's only useful in aoe situations, altho I also didn't have time to do a clean testing.

edit: typo. damn.
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#40 Zamir

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:12 PM

I've only done a 5-minute test so far, naked in my resto spec using Flametongue Totem (144 spellpower). The expected damage results for a 21.43% coefficient would be
MIN: 144*0.2143+893 = 923
MAX: 144*0.2143+997 = 1028
The lowest damage figure I observed was 923 exactly and the highest 1023. So I am pretty confident about the coefficient.

I'm also pretty confident about the way the damage modifiers from CoF and IFN stack, as the tooltip with both reads "1205 to 1346 damage" - which is precisely the expected range for a 15% + 20% additive increase (893*1.35 = 1205.55, 997*1.35=1345.95).

This puts it below Frost Shock in terms of single target effectiveness. e.g. for 2500 spellpower and not accounting for crit (they have same crit chance/modifiers):
FrS av. base dmg: 835
Coefficient: 38.57%
Talents: Concussion (5%) and Booming Echoes (20%)
835 + SP*0.3857 * (1 + 0.05 + 0.2) = 2249
FN av. base dmg: 945
Coefficient: 21.43%
Talents: Call of Flame (15%) and Imp. Fire Nova (20%)
945 + SP*0.2143 * (1 + 0.15 + 0.2) = 1999

What I don't know is how the 10-target AoE cap works.
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