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Moonkin Guide for Dummies!


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#21 dukes

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 09:27 AM

Due to how blacksmithing gives it's profession bonus, it will always be best. Alchemy/Leatherworking/Inscription are all fixed to exactly one bonus: spellpower. Blacksmithing allows addition of whatever gems are required, whether it is hit gems, spellpower gems, or whatever. Jewelcrafting combined with this will always allow the best combination, due to Jewelcrafting having the same choice over what stat to provide. Jewelcrafting also allows some ~15 spellpower or so more than any other profession by being able to get socket bonuses (e.g. ).

Blacksmithing also allows use of 2 gems in all situations - combine this with the belt buckle and you will always have the 3 sockets to put JC gems in, regardless of if your gear has sockets in it or not. Although this isn't likely an issue towards the high end, it can be an issue in entry-level gear.

#22 Ashen

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:18 PM

So, I hadn't seen any conclusive evidence as to whether or not Insect Swarm was really scaling well enough to be worth the GCD use. I haven't been able to find the math that conclusively states that keeping Insect Swarm up actually yields more DPS than using the GCD's on Starfire / Wrath as needed (even with glyph and 2pc T7). Is it really the case that keeping Insect Swarm does outweigh the simpler rotation?

Hey guys, I heard that Blizzard puts out these things called "patches" that contain "content"

Yeah but it hasn't happened since Ulduar.


#23 Erdluf

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:58 PM

So, I hadn't seen any conclusive evidence as to whether or not Insect Swarm was really scaling well enough to be worth the GCD use. I haven't been able to find the math that conclusively states that keeping Insect Swarm up actually yields more DPS than using the GCD's on Starfire / Wrath as needed (even with glyph and 2pc T7). Is it really the case that keeping Insect Swarm does outweigh the simpler rotation?


No talents/glyphs/idol/crit

IS: 1290 + 76%, 1 GCD
SF: 1120 + 100%, 2 GCD

For IS, add Splendor (7/6) and Glyph (130%)

1956.5 + 115%, 1 GCD

For SF, add Moonfury (10%), Vengeance+CSD (109% extra damage on crit), WoC (20% spellpower), 50% crit

1903 + 204%, 2 GCD = (952 + 102%) / GCD

if cast with NG, you are down to 5/3 GCD = (1142 + 122%) / GCD. This is scaling better than IS (7% SP/GCD), but that won't make up the IS lead in base damage until your SP is past 5000.

Bump crit to 80% (Eclipse) and a NG'd SF goes to (1384 + 148%) / GCD, and the NG'd SF is a win before 2000 SP.

All this assumes your total haste is less than 50%, you have zero delay on spell casts (delay favors SF), no danger of pushback/interrupt, no t7, no IIS+future Wrath cast, no idol, ... .

At low caster-lag, glyphed IS should be a better use of your time, except during Bloodlust and Eclipse.

The talented, but no-NG, no-IIS, no-Eclipse number for Wrath (at 50% crit) is (999 + 114%)/GCD. The NG'd value depends strongly on your haste (how many normal GCD's is 1s?).

#24 Eilt

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:59 PM

IS is better, but I do not believe it is worth 100% uptime at this point.

Most people have it glyphed and throw it up while wrath spamming for the 3% extra damage and the DoT, but once eclipse procs and while eclipse is on the iCD stick to MF/SF.

#25 Ashaera

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 02:38 PM

Eilt -> Then most people are doing it wrong. Usually a good cycle would involve refreshing IS just after eclipse runs out (depending on MF state) -> this leads to IS running out just about when eclipse hidden cd runs out & you can reapply.

For numbers with fairly high spellpower (im atleast above 2800 in raids) - Numbers taken from my last Patchwerk, so starfire numbers arent as accurate as they could be due to a small sample size.

Insect Swarm average tick = 940 -- 1 cast is 7*940 = 6580 (glyphed+2x t7).
My average Starfire hit = 6019 / Crit = 12782.

So 2x IS > 1x Starfire crit. If you assume 100% crit then Starfire is slightly better due to NG reducing cast time below 2x gcd, but at any realistic crit rate you are better off making the most of IS - Im not refreshing IS during Eclipse, allthough that might not even be right for low crit rates.



Trismegistus - I still dont understand what you are arguing over.
I just posted the net benifit from professions (With spellpower gain being relative to what not having any profession gain would give you).

Your example is plain wrong & here is why.
- Your BS-example gains 8 more spellpower due to the profession granting the 2 sockets(gems) which provide 4spellpower each once they go epic, a non blacksmith will not gain this.
- Your JC-example gains 8 more spellpower due to non-profession gems becomming epic, a non JC will also gain this.

Example:
3gem slots = 96spellpower for the player with jc.
3gem slots = 57spellpower for the player using +19spellpower gems.
3gem slots = 69spellpower for the player using +23spellpower gems.

2gem slots gained from BS = 38spellpower with +19spellpower gems.
2gem slots gained from BS = 46spellpower with +23spellpower gems.

The value of JC does decline, while the value of BS goes up. Im pretty confident that the JC gems prismatic status will keep JC worthwhile, but BS does no doubt become 1 of the best 2 professions once epic gems arrive. The difference is not huge, but either you want to min-max or you dont.

#26 Cdin

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 04:52 PM

Example:
3gem slots = 96spellpower for the player with jc.
3gem slots = 57spellpower for the player using +19spellpower gems.
3gem slots = 69spellpower for the player using +23spellpower gems.


And that doesn't take into account not having to socket two blue gems for the Meta gem, or a potentially missed socket bonus.

EDIT: I changed my post to be less plural, and more ambiguous.
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#27 Adoriele

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 05:27 PM

And that doesn't take into account not having to socket two blue gems for the Meta gem, or the missed socket bonuses.


Practically, those two clash. If you're not using prismatics, you need two blue gems to activate your meta, and you'd be an idiot to put them in non-blue sockets unless you don't have enough blue sockets on your gear. If that's the case, you're getting those socket bonuses anyway, so really you're only getting one extra socket bonus you wouldn't have without prismatics.

#28 Eilt

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 06:19 PM

Practically, those two clash. If you're not using prismatics, you need two blue gems to activate your meta, and you'd be an idiot to put them in non-blue sockets unless you don't have enough blue sockets on your gear. If that's the case, you're getting those socket bonuses anyway, so really you're only getting one extra socket bonus you wouldn't have without prismatics.


I think the "potential" missed socket bonus is not the real concern anyways. The big thing is the sheer fact you do not have to use a blue gem at all. So instead of a 9 SP 8 Spi (blue quality) you get a 32 spellpower gem. Doing that twice for the 2 blue requirement means you get 64 SP insead of 18 SP and 16 Spi. This leaves you your third prismatic vs. a runed (probably) so a 32sp vs 19sp.

Of course using a prismatic in a yellow socket for a bonus changes the number, but it is hard to quantify every case possible...


e: terrible typing is terrible

#29 calderstrake

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:13 PM

Ashaera- thanks for your example. In fact, there was nothing wrong with my example, only my interpretation. What I missed was that I need to compare the difference between 172-134 and 188-142. this yields 38 and 46, the same as your example.

Now my thought is, will blizz release new epic patterns for other professions to bring this increase in line. Otherwise, we are just trading Enchanting for Blacksmithing.

Although, I will not be one of those to abandon my non-JC profession, I do agree that a difference of 8 SP is noteworthy. I would still argue that the value of JC does not decline, it simply remains constant with the other professions while BS continues to increase in value.

#30 Talsh

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:27 AM

Great guide, thanks for writing it up. Hopefully it will attract some of the posts that would otherwise be put into a thread designed for other topics.

Maybe someone wants to append it with gear recommendations? I realize moonkin gearing isn't brain surgery, but we don't have a thread discussing it.

#31 Ashaera

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:55 PM

Maybe someone wants to append it with gear recommendations? I realize moonkin gearing isn't brain surgery, but we don't have a thread discussing it.


For all gear levels this topic is hard to answer, I dont mind sharing the list im aiming for though.

This is roughly my idea of best in slot pre Ulduar.

- Kel'thuzad
- Sapphiron
- Loatheb, Glyth, 25man badges
- Sartharion (2 adds+)
- 4horsemen, Glyth
- Sartharion (2 adds+)
- Kel'thuzad

-Razuvious
- Sartharion (0 adds+)
- Malygos
- Malygos
- Malygos 10man
- 25man badges
- Kel'thuzad
- Naxx 25, various bosses
- Sartharion (0 adds+)

275 hit rating = 10.48%.

----
An idea could be to swap out for or & for .
Landing on 236 hit rating = 9%.

#32 Cdin

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 03:13 PM

For all gear levels this topic is hard to answer, I dont mind sharing the list im aiming for though.

This is roughly my idea of best in slot pre Ulduar.

- Kel'thuzad
- Sapphiron
- Loatheb, Glyth, 25man badges
- Sartharion (2 adds+)
- 4horsemen, Glyth
- Sartharion (2 adds+)
- Kel'thuzad

-Razuvious
- Sartharion (0 adds+)
- Malygos
- Malygos
- Malygos 10man
- 25man badges
- Kel'thuzad
- Naxx 25, various bosses
- Sartharion (0 adds+)

275 hit rating = 10.48%.

----
An idea could be to swap out for or & for .
Landing on 236 hit rating = 9%.


This agrees almost completely with a blog post I did a few weeks ago.

Gray Matter: My Christmas Wish List

I have been debating some of the choices I made though. For instance, I starting to think that is to good to pass up. To drop the hit I would probably pick up Instead of the and changing a couple of gems.
www.GrayMatterWoW.blogspot.com - My Moonkin related Blog.

#33 Talsh

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 04:11 PM

One other thing I just noticed regarding your generic spec - isn't it 'standard' to only have 2 points in eclipse? Or has someone discovered something indicating otherwise?

Edit: And I'm sure you know this, but that necklace comes from Naxx/Malygos, not sapphiron.

#34 Adoriele

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 04:16 PM

One other thing I just noticed regarding your generic spec - isn't it 'standard' to only have 2 points in eclipse? Or has someone discovered something indicating otherwise?

Edit: And I'm sure you know this, but that necklace comes from Naxx/Malygos, not sapphiron.


Depends. If you're using Starfire to proc Eclipse, the last point is of very small value. If you're using Wrath, it's about the same value as all of the other points.

#35 Eilt

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 06:22 PM

Gear selections:

I like to play around with the Loot Rank site, I have 2 different set ups.

The first set-up values hit more than anything else, so I can maximize the best in slot gear that has hit on it.

I also use a second set that values hit at 0 to find pure best in slot gear.

I try and get a mix of these to make sure I stay at the hit cap and also am maximizing other stats:

Hit Loot Rank:
Loot Rank - Hit

No Hit Loot Rank:
Loot Rank - No Hit

Note:
I ignore the gems section and elxirs and such, it is just a good gear comparison tool for the weights I have used.

#36 hquest

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 06:53 PM

Edit: And I'm sure you know this, but that necklace comes from Naxx/Malygos, not sapphiron.


Yes, Necklace is the reward for a quest you finish by killing Malygos, but the item which begins this quest drops from Sapphiron.

And this is what I am currently wearing/planning to get to my char:

Head:
Neck:
Shoulders:
Back:
Chest:
Wrist:
Hands:
Belt:
Legs:
Feet:
Ring:
Ring #2:
Trinket:
Trinket #2: (although I may keep current )
Main Hand:
Off Hand:
Relic:

4 T7
2053 spell power (2111 on Moonkin)
17.24% (454) crit (+5% on Moonkin)
10.03% (263) hit
16.25% (533) haste

Gemmed with non prismatic gems nor extra BS sockets.

#37 Hamlet

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:03 PM

Interesting--I'd slated the dream set to include Embrace instead of Dying Curse, allowing use of some of the great items with hit on them (Wanton Spellcaster, Cincture of Polarity, and Surplus Limb).

#38 Cdin

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:42 PM

A poster on the Moonkin Respository is saying there is a possible bug with the damage added by the .

Here is his Bug report on the offical forums.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Bug] Druid item: Idol of the Shooting Star
www.GrayMatterWoW.blogspot.com - My Moonkin related Blog.

#39 Erdluf

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 09:16 PM

A poster on the Moonkin Respository is saying there is a possible bug with the damage added by the .

Here is his Bug report on the offical forums.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Bug] Druid item: Idol of the Shooting Star


His numbers (idol gives 73'ish damage) are very close to what you'd exect from the BC .

55 * 1.1 (moonfury) * 1.13 (E&M) * 1.03 (more E&M) * 1.04 (MsS) = 73.2

#40 Zakariya

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:16 PM

For all gear levels this topic is hard to answer, I dont mind sharing the list im aiming for though.

This is roughly my idea of best in slot pre Ulduar.

- Kel'thuzad
- Sapphiron
- Loatheb, Glyth, 25man badges
- Sartharion (2 adds+)
- 4horsemen, Glyth
- Sartharion (2 adds+)
- Kel'thuzad

-Razuvious
- Sartharion (0 adds+)
- Malygos
- Malygos
- Malygos 10man
- 25man badges
- Kel'thuzad
- Naxx 25, various bosses
- Sartharion (0 adds+)

275 hit rating = 10.48%.

----
An idea could be to swap out for or & for .
Landing on 236 hit rating = 9%.


My plan is basically above, but since I don't like wearing cloth, using the following instead:

- Noth, Gluth
- Instructor Rasuvious, Gluth
- Patchwerk
- Malygos
- Thaddius

Which gets me 273 Hit Rating (10.41%).




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