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#41 Ashen

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 07:52 PM

So even post nerf, where does Illustration land between Dying Curse, Embrace of the Spider, and Sundial of the Exiled?

#42 Hamlet

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 08:25 PM

So even post nerf, where does Illustration land between Dying Curse, Embrace of the Spider, and Sundial of the Exiled?


Way above all of them.

#43 Guest_Ailetha_*

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:40 PM

I would like to point out a correction. Keeping IS up only during attempts at proccing eclipse is not wrong, you can't put 2 insect swarms side by side next to 1 noncrit or crit starfire and say 1 method (keeping it up 100% or not) is better than the other.

The following doesn't even include having to cast it during eclipse or heroism/bloodlust, which would just bolster this argument even moreso.

For example, using my most recent web stats:

206 second fight, that's 103 ticks if i kept it up the whole time, assuming no overlap, no casting during eclipse, and 0 downtime whatsoever (basically, ideal conditions that will never happen). 103x932 = 95,996 damage done.

Now, I needed 15 casts to keep that up the whole time - 15 casts x 1.5 = 22.5 seconds to do that damage.


Okay then - moving onto starfire. Not including eclipse, with a 50% crit rate, every other cast will be a crit.

22.5 seconds with a 2.46s cast - That's 9.5 casts without crits.
Including crit casts, that's just over 10 casts.
My avg crit on last patchwerk being 11779 and avg noncrit being 5574

2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574

That adds up to 86,765.

Add in any IS downtime whatsoever, throw in having to cast during eclipse v a starfire during eclipse, or add in a heroism, bloodlust or speed pot, even just a lucky crit rate, and insect swarm doesn't hold its value to keeping 100% uptime.


Now let's take a look at a longer fight, 300 seconds, or 5 minutes.

300 second fight equals 150 ticks x 932 = 139800 damage done for insect swarm.

That's 25 casts or 37.5 seconds. My avg crit on last patchwerk being 11779 and avg noncrit being 5574,

The equivalent number of starfire casts would be 17:

2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779
1.96 5574
2.46 11779

That's 150,603 damage versus keeping IS up 100% of the time at 139,800 damage. And this second example doesn't even include eclipse, heroism, bloodlust, speed pot, etc etc.

Neither of these accounts for having more haste and same crit as I do, which would skew it in my favor even more. You can't just say across the board 'oh anyone who doesn't keep it up 100% of the time is doing it wrong,' because you yourself are just outright wrong by saying that. You have to compare the damage done between the two over the whole fight, every single time, not just put 2 casts v 1 cast side by side and say one or the other is better.

#44 Zakariya

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:46 PM

Way above all of them.


Per mmo-champion today, Illustration has been slightly de-nerfed:

Illustration of the Dragon Soul now increase your spell power by 20. (Up from 18, PTR change)


If true, it's even further elevated above the rest.

#45 Erdluf

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:27 PM

300 second fight equals 150 ticks x 932 = 139800 damage done for insect swarm.

That's 25 casts or 37.5 seconds. My avg crit on last patchwerk being 11779 and avg noncrit being 5574,


150/7 = 21.4 casts. Also, if you count your haste for SF, you should probably count it for IS also.

#46 dukes

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:30 PM

Ailetha:
a) GCD is affected by haste. This means that you GCD will be less than the 1.5 seconds you're using for Insect Swarm - it should be closer to 1.3 or even 1.2 raid buffed.
B) NG doesn't remove exactly 0.5 seconds on Starfire when critting. My base cast times are 2.47 and 2.06 seconds, which is consistent with a 1/6th reduction (from 3.0 - 0.5 = 1/6th reduction).
c) You've also messed up your second case. 150 ticks is only 21.4 casts, not 25. In your scenario the 22 casts required would take 33 seconds, significantly reducing the starfire damage done.

#47 Eothlorien

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:37 PM

Using the WrathCalcs Spreadsheet and my current stats, comparing a swap for I show:

Non-Jewelcrafters receive a -0.97096813 DPS decrease. This is due to gemming differently for socket/meta requirements.

Jewelcrafters receive a 7.164812247 DPS increase.

I would also like to point out as spell power increases, haste becomes even more desireable over crit. I am sticking with as my spell power increases, the DPS gap decreases. This is rougly only a 0.15% variation. I will pick up only once all othet casters who want it, have it.

#48 thann

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 05:04 AM

Consumeables
Flask = , no Elixir combo can match it
Food = or one of the other +46spellpower options fx
Potion = for dps / if needed



I would like to add under consumables or under professions for herbalism.


Since 3.0 came out there has been a increase in moonkin threads and i have been trying to read alot of them.
I never see any one make mention of using the fire seed in conjunction with haste pots.
So I thought i would post it here first.
I use a simple macro to bind them together.

/use Potion of speed
/use Fire seed

Hope maybe for a few out there this helps with dps.

#49 Lorewanderer

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 05:40 AM

Fire seed does nothing at the moment (as I understand it) and will be turning into a grey item with the next patch.

#50 Tecton

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 06:48 AM

Correct, Fire Seed doesn't do anything at all, which is why you haven't seen anything about using it.

#51 thann

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 12:16 PM

Wow sorry can't believe it doesn't work. Never really looked at numbers as i always used it with the haste pot. Good to know though.

#52 Shuror

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 01:43 PM

B) NG doesn't remove exactly 0.5 seconds on Starfire when critting. My base cast times are 2.47 and 2.06 seconds, which is consistent with a 1/6th reduction (from 3.0 - 0.5 = 1/6th reduction).

Well, technically it doesn't remove 1/6th, but it removes a static 0.5 seconds before haste. For example, from your non-NG cast time i deduce that you have approx. 21.45% haste buffed. That would make the NGed cast time 2.0583 seconds, which is what you have.

It's practically the same thing when you only calculate Starfire with Nature's Grace and fully talented Starlight Wrath, which obviously all Moonkins have.

#53 Moonwhisper

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 03:38 PM

Very nice thread Ashaera, keep up the good work. :)

I missed 2 information that I believe are important for moonkin newcomers (and dummies).

1. Table of Hit cap / Soft hit cap with balance of power / ... with iFF / draenei racial buff and combinations thereof
Hit cap for dps casters on bosses lvl 83+ is:

446 (17%) --> no talents/buffs or whatsoever included.
341 (14%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent
263 (10%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent and Misery (priest talent) or improved FF (3/3)
236 (9%) --> with BoP and Misery/iFF and a draenei in grp. (heroic presence draenei racial buff)


2. Thumb rules for relative ratios between Spellpower / Spell Hit / Crit / Spell power / Haste / Int expressed in points of Spellpower.

Spellpower: 1
Spell Hit Rating: 1.1
Haste Rating: 0.76
Crit Rating : 0.55
Int: 0.15


The ratios above are based on Graylo's calculations (10/13/08) and relations which were found by Whitetooth (author of rating buster) However, I am not a math crack just took them "as they are" and rounded for convenience reason.
(reference: Gray Matter: Moonkin Stats at Level 80)
(reference: RatingBuster - Addons - Curse)

I believe that these information is very helpful for an educated decision on equipment.
Could you please include this in your summary. Thx in advance.

#54 Cdin

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 04:31 PM

Very nice thread Ashaera, keep up the good work. :)
2. Thumb rules for relative ratios between Spellpower / Spell Hit / Crit / Spell power / Haste / Int expressed in points of Spellpower.

Spellpower: 1
Spell Hit Rating: 1.1
Haste Rating: 0.76
Crit Rating : 0.55
Int: 0.15


The ratios above are based on Graylo's calculations (10/13/08) and relations which were found by Whitetooth (author of rating buster) However, I am not a math crack just took them "as they are" and rounded for convenience reason.
(reference: Gray Matter: Moonkin Stats at Level 80)
(reference: RatingBuster - Addons - Curse)


Just so you know those numbers were calculated using a beta version of the game. Therefore they have a couple of issues.

1. Since I didn't have access to the beta I had to estimate what the average levels of Spell Power, Crit, and Haste would be. In actuallity I think I think I should have used higher base values for each of those stats.

2. Those stats were based pure on Starfire. While Starfire is still our primary spell, wrath is more important then it was in the Burning Crusade.

3. Also, several things about the game have changed since then that may affect the value of each stat. For instance when I wrote that post I assumed the NG did not affect the GCD. The current conventional wisdom is that it does.

I do think those numbers are fairly close but I doubt they are 100% accurate. I do plan on updating that information, I just havent' gotten around to it yet. I hope to do it soon.
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#55 Adoriele

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 06:07 PM

Just so you know those numbers were calculated using a beta version of the game. Therefore they have a couple of issues.

1. Since I didn't have access to the beta I had to estimate what the average levels of Spell Power, Crit, and Haste would be. In actuallity I think I think I should have used higher base values for each of those stats.

2. Those stats were based pure on Starfire. While Starfire is still our primary spell, wrath is more important then it was in the Burning Crusade.

3. Also, several things about the game have changed since then that may affect the value of each stat. For instance when I wrote that post I assumed the NG did not affect the GCD. The current conventional wisdom is that it does.

I do think those numbers are fairly close but I doubt they are 100% accurate. I do plan on updating that information, I just havent' gotten around to it yet. I hope to do it soon.


I would change them to Hit:1.7, Int:.35, Spi .15, but that's about it. They'll change again with new tiers. Ideally, you'd want your gear to be 0 for Hit, 1 for everything else (except stats, obviously), we might get close in Icecrown.

#56 Hamlet

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 06:09 PM

I would change them to Hit:1.7, Int:.35, Spi .15, but that's about it. They'll change again with new tiers. Ideally, you'd want your gear to be 0 for Hit, 1 for everything else (except stats, obviously), we might get close in Icecrown.


Also worth noting that when you're in the wide range where you can gem to hitcap, 1 hit rating is effectively worth 9/8 of a spellpower.

#57 Cdin

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 08:14 PM

I would change them to Hit:1.7, Int:.35, Spi .15, but that's about it. They'll change again with new tiers. Ideally, you'd want your gear to be 0 for Hit, 1 for everything else (except stats, obviously), we might get close in Icecrown.


Off the top of my head your hit value looks a little high, but it doesn't really matter. Either way the rule is to hit cap.

As far as Crit and Haste, I personally doubt that they will every be equal in value to Spell Power. I know that Crit got really close in T6 and haste passed spell power in T5, but Wrath is a much different game. We start with so much Crit and haste now that they are really far behind spell power.

Then again, I haven't rerun the numbers yet.
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#58 Angelfire

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 07:49 AM

Very nice thread Ashaera, keep up the good work. :)

I missed 2 information that I believe are important for moonkin newcomers (and dummies).

1. Table of Hit cap / Soft hit cap with balance of power / ... with iFF / draenei racial buff and combinations thereof
Hit cap for dps casters on bosses lvl 83+ is:

446 (17%) --> no talents/buffs or whatsoever included.
341 (14%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent
263 (10%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent and Misery (priest talent) or improved FF (3/3)
236 (9%) --> with BoP and Misery/iFF and a draenei in grp. (heroic presence draenei racial buff)


Not wanting to state the obvious, but since this is a post for "Dummies", I believe you meant:

446 (17%) --> no talents/buffs or whatsoever included.
341 (13%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent (this talents gives 4% to hit with 2 talents points)
263 (10%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent and Misery (priest talent) or improved FF (3/3) (Misery and IFF gives 3% each, not stacking)
236 (9%) --> with BoP and Misery/iFF and a draenei in grp. (heroic presence draenei racial buff)



#59 bethor

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:51 PM

*During Heroism -> Drop IS from your rotation as heroism boosted SF in most cases will outperform it. Keep casting MF & use W to proc SF-Eclipses.


Personally during Bloodlust, I SF Spam while keeping MF up... Wrath gets clipped wayyyyy too much with the haste.
Agree / Disagree anyone?

#60 ATheGreat

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 05:47 AM

Personally during Bloodlust, I SF Spam while keeping MF up... Wrath gets clipped wayyyyy too much with the haste.
Agree / Disagree anyone?


i'll normally take the time to proc eclipse before i start starfire spamming if it's ready at the beginning of a bloodlust, but if i'm already a good chunk into it and eclipse is still on icd or something, i'll usually let it slide and just mf/sf as needed.




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