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SimulationCraft for Rogues


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#41 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 12:07 PM

Under attack stats, both specs have identical AP numbers, even though Savage Combat would increase the AP of the combat rogue by 4% over the mutilate rogue. This also seems to possibly be a problem for the talent Close Quarters Combat, as a combat build would have 2% more crit over a mutilate rogue from having 2 more points in this talent.

The expertise outputs however also seem strange. The mutilate rogue has 6.6 (I'm assuming %). While the combat rogue has 16.6. The 10 expertise gained from the weapon expertise talent is only 2.5%, which if the resulting number is a % would mean the combat rogue should be ending up at 9.1.
(Also a side note, 6.6 seems to be wrong itself, it seems like it is rounding up after taking fraction values of expertise. Where expertise will only improve your dps if it comes out to a flat expertise value.)

Lastly, your combat rogue is running with instant poison instead of wounding.


1. The AP discrepancy is a reporting issue. The talent Savage Combat should have been included since it is an all-the-time multiplier. CQC is handled as an on-the-fly check since it is weapon dependent.

2. I need to dive into the Expertise issue. I'll comment later today, but this is looking like a real problem. Thanks!!!

3. Hmm...... I have Instant Poison scaling at 0.10 AP and Wound Poison scaling at 0.04 AP.....

#42 Aldriana

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 12:36 PM

Yes, but IP has a base proc rate of 20%, and wound poison of 50%; so the per-attack scaling is .02 for both, and the relative values of their base damages puts Wound Poison ahead unless you have poison talents - which Mutilate rogues do, but Combat rogues do not.

#43 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:15 PM

Yes, but IP has a base proc rate of 20%, and wound poison of 50%; so the per-attack scaling is .02 for both, and the relative values of their base damages puts Wound Poison ahead unless you have poison talents - which Mutilate rogues do, but Combat rogues do not.


Thanks, Aldriana. This level of detail really helps. I can research individual pieces of Rogue mechanics, but when I zoom out to see the whole picture I get a bit overwhelmed........

I'll update the config files appropriately.

Speaking of which....... Is there a "viable" (even if subpar) Subtlety build you can recommend that I can start testing?

#44 Neto-

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:19 PM

As far as Subtlety builds go... I think it isn't practical to try to bother modeling it, since the spec is completely random and dependent on external factors (Honor Among Thieves).

But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty :)


#45 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 02:02 PM

As far as Subtlety builds go... I think it isn't practical to try to bother modeling it, since the spec is completely random and dependent on external factors (Honor Among Thieves).


SimulationCraft is a multi-player sim so it isn't hard to model Honor Among Thieves...... the problem lies is in putting together a config file because of the impact from party composition. SimulationCraft can return a "result"...... but it won't be a generalized answer.

#46 Loot

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 02:48 PM

As far as Subtlety builds go... I think it isn't practical to try to bother modeling it, since the spec is completely random and dependent on external factors (Honor Among Thieves).


As much as I hate Hat playstyle, the simulationcraft may be the best way to model it. True, it depends on external crits, but simulationcraft, doing the "real" hits and crits, can pretty much define the best environment for a HaT rogue. For spec... dunno, I raided with something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft before

#47 path411

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:54 PM

The main current limitation of modeling HAT I can see would be that a SimulationCraft for each class in your party would need to be available and working.

#48 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 09:11 PM

The main current limitation of modeling HAT I can see would be that a SimulationCraft for each class in your party would need to be available and working.


We're about to release an alpha version of Hunter so I'll be testing with:

Combat Rogue
Assassination Rogue
Subtlety Rogue
Survival Hunter
Beastmaster Hunter

I'm working with this quote from GC:

I will add that some players have wondered if Honor Among Thieves is bugged since the cp can occur more often than 1 sec. In this case, the tooltip is just unclear. When Jimmy the Shaman crits, he cannnot "send you" a combo point more often than 1 per sec. But if you have lots of players critting all the time, you can build them up quickly. So Honor is (here it comes) working as intended.


I hope it is still current..... I'm also assuming that non-guardian pets can trigger the effect.

#49 Vulajin

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 09:19 PM

I hope it is still current..... I'm also assuming that non-guardian pets can trigger the effect.


Both assumptions are correct.

Yep, still a fucking idiot.


#50 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 11:34 PM

Okay...... My 3xRogue+2xHunter setup seems retarded.....

I'm finding it best for the HAT Rogue to just stinking sit there and wait for combo points...... Sinister Strike and Hemo are just a waste of energy.

Is HAT combo point generation being throttled in any other way than: "One player cannot give more than one combo point per second." ?

#51 chalon

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 12:17 AM

No.

Yeah, you shouldn't SS or Hemo at all. Just keep up SnD, keep up Rupture, then spam Eviscerate.

#52 koaschten

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 03:08 AM

Okay...... My 3xRogue+2xHunter setup seems retarded.....

I'm finding it best for the HAT Rogue to just stinking sit there and wait for combo points...... Sinister Strike and Hemo are just a waste of energy.

Is HAT combo point generation being throttled in any other way than: "One player cannot give more than one combo point per second." ?


You just figured out why many rogues dont want to spec HaT even though it might be their highest DPS Spec... but this might get offtopic fast.
And yes, thats the only limitation since they fixed the "1cp per crit per rogue".
I want to give you a thumbs up to the work you have done so far though :)
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#53 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 03:19 AM

Major bug fix in "finisher" mechanics..... Damage distribution starting to look better...... just low.

Assassination Profile
rogue=Rogue_51_13_7
party=2
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoVboIzAo0xV0hZxb
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=great_feast/apply_poison,main_hand=instant,off_hand=deadly
actions+=/auto_attack/pool_energy/hunger_for_blood,refresh_at=2/slice_and_dice,min_combo_points=3/tricks_of_the_trade,target=Rogue_15_51_5/rupture,min_combo_points=4/envenom,min_combo_points=4/mutilate
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=1030
gear_stamina=950
gear_intellect=0
gear_spirit=0
gear_attack_power=2500
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_expertise_rating=215
gear_hit_rating=215
gear_crit_rating=675
gear_haste_rating=280
relentless_earthstorm=1
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1
main_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
off_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=688
sanctified_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1

Combat Profile
rogue=Rogue_15_51_5
party=2
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eb0xZMgibx0xoru0xRtx
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=great_feast/apply_poison,main_hand=wound,off_hand=deadly
actions+=/auto_attack/pool_energy/slice_and_dice,min_combo_points=4,refresh_at=5/tricks_of_the_trade,target=Rogue_7_21_43/killing_spree/blade_flurry/rupture,min_combo_points=4/eviscerate,min_combo_points=4/sinister_strike
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=1030
gear_stamina=950
gear_intellect=0
gear_spirit=0
gear_attack_power=2500
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_expertise_rating=215
gear_hit_rating=215
gear_crit_rating=675
gear_haste_rating=280
# Not fair to use the same stats since Combat Rogue needs less expertise.
# Trade expertise for ivalue-equal amount of attack power
enchant_attack_power=160
enchant_attack_expertise_rating=-80
relentless_earthstorm=1
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1
main_hand=fist,dps=156,speed=2.6,enchant=berserking
off_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=688
sanctified_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1

Subtlety Profile
rogue=Rogue_7_21_43
party=2
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhLZ0xV0x0xoZxbrbhGzdAzqc
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=great_feast/apply_poison,main_hand=wound,off_hand=deadly
actions+=/auto_attack/pool_energy/slice_and_dice,min_combo_points=4,refresh_at=5/tricks_of_the_trade,target=Rogue_51_13_7/blade_flurry/rupture,min_combo_points=5/eviscerate,min_combo_points=5
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=1030
gear_stamina=950
gear_intellect=0
gear_spirit=0
gear_attack_power=2500
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_expertise_rating=215
gear_hit_rating=215
gear_crit_rating=675
gear_haste_rating=280
relentless_earthstorm=1
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1
main_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
off_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=688
sanctified_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1

Results
Player=Rogue_15_51_5  DPS=3839.7 (Error=+/-6.1 Range=+/-299)  DPR=224.2  RPS=17.1/16.8  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=124  agility=1341  stamina=1160  intellect=41  spirit=72  health=15699  mana=0
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=8.2%  crit=14.7%  penetration=0  haste=8.5%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=4953  hit=6.6%  crit=30.5%  expertise=6.6  penetration=0  haste=8.5%
  Actions:
    deadly_poison         Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf|10%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=1134
    eviscerate            Count=  8.0|33.3sec  DPE=4068| 3%  DPET=3254  DPR=116.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2492  Crit=6165|7221|42.9%
    melee_main_hand       Count=196.5| 1.4sec  DPE=1519|28%  DPET=1063  DPR= inf  Miss=14.4%  Hit=1169  Crit=2409|2879|47.5%  Glance= 877|24.0%
    melee_off_hand        Count=365.9| 0.8sec  DPE= 614|21%  DPET= 800  DPR= inf  Miss=14.4%  Hit= 473  Crit= 974|1165|47.4%  Glance= 355|24.0%
    rupture               Count= 10.2|26.9sec  DPE=5695| 5%  DPET=4556  DPR=227.8  Miss=0.0%  Tick=834
    sinister_strike       Count=106.1| 2.6sec  DPE=2678|26%  DPET=2142  DPR=70.5  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1339  Crit=3900|4599|52.3%
    wound_poison          Count=144.2| 1.9sec  DPE= 567| 8%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.8%  Hit= 572

Player=Rogue_51_13_7  DPS=4489.5 (Error=+/-9.7 Range=+/-463)  DPR=297.5  RPS=15.1/14.8  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=124  agility=1341  stamina=1160  intellect=41  spirit=72  health=15699  mana=0
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=8.2%  crit=14.7%  penetration=0  haste=8.5%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=4793  hit=6.6%  crit=30.5%  expertise=6.6  penetration=0  haste=8.5%
  Actions:
    deadly_poison         Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf|10%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=1488
    envenom               Count= 10.7|23.4sec  DPE=6773| 6%  DPET=5415  DPR=193.5  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4602  Crit=9811|13296|41.7%
    instant_poison        Count=118.7| 2.3sec  DPE=1575|15%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.8%  Hit=1588
    melee_main_hand       Count=358.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 869|25%  DPET=1109  DPR= inf  Miss=14.5%  Hit= 661  Crit=1417|1706|45.5%  Glance= 496|23.9%
    melee_off_hand        Count=358.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 654|19%  DPET= 834  DPR= inf  Miss=14.3%  Hit= 497  Crit=1064|1281|45.6%  Glance= 372|24.0%
    mutilate              Count= 52.0| 5.5sec  DPE=4306|18%  DPET=3445  DPR=75.6  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3081  Crit=4924|6550|66.5%
    rupture               Count= 13.1|21.5sec  DPE=8086| 8%  DPET=6469  DPR=323.5  Miss=0.0%  Tick=1048

Player=Rogue_7_21_43  DPS=4816.7 (Error=+/-6.8 Range=+/-355)  DPR=304.8  RPS=15.8/15.8  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=124  agility=1542  stamina=1160  intellect=41  spirit=72  health=15699  mana=0
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=8.2%  crit=14.7%  penetration=0  haste=8.5%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=4994  hit=6.6%  crit=32.9%  expertise=6.6  penetration=0  haste=8.5%
  Actions:
    deadly_poison         Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf| 8%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=1146
    eviscerate            Count= 80.6| 3.4sec  DPE=5868|35%  DPET=4694  DPR=167.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3998  Crit=8246|10849|44.0%
    melee_main_hand       Count=372.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 870|24%  DPET=1152  DPR= inf  Miss=14.5%  Hit= 661  Crit=1362|1647|49.1%  Glance= 496|24.1%
    melee_off_hand        Count=372.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 653|18%  DPET= 865  DPR= inf  Miss=14.4%  Hit= 496  Crit=1022|1236|49.1%  Glance= 372|24.1%
    rupture               Count= 16.2|17.6sec  DPE=7632| 9%  DPET=6106  DPR=305.3  Miss=0.0%  Tick=978
    wound_poison          Count=159.2| 1.8sec  DPE= 571| 7%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.8%  Hit= 575

Gains:
    Rogue_7_21_43:
        energy_regen=2022.2
        relentless_strikes=2418.5
    Rogue_15_51_5:
        combat_potency=926.8
        energy_regen=3460.3
        relentless_strikes=362.1
    Rogue_51_13_7:
        energy_regen=2805.9
        focused_attacks=811.1
        relentless_strikes=566.7

Procs:
    Rogue_7_21_43:
        combo_points=690.1|0.4sec
        honor_among_thieves=716.8|0.4sec
    Rogue_15_51_5:
        combo_points=116.9|2.4sec
        ruthlessness=10.8|26.0sec
    Rogue_51_13_7:
        combo_points=148.4|1.9sec
        ruthlessness=14.3|19.7sec
        seal_fate=46.1|6.1sec

Up-Times:
    Rogue_7_21_43:
        23.0% : berserking_mh
        22.9% : berserking_oh
        19.2% : blade_flurry
        99.4% : slice_and_dice
        21.2% : tricks_of_the_trade
    Rogue_15_51_5:
        45.3% : berserking_mh
        24.7% : berserking_oh
        18.6% : blade_flurry
        97.5% : savage_combat
        93.5% : slice_and_dice
        23.0% : tricks_of_the_trade
    Rogue_51_13_7:
        28.8% : berserking_mh
        29.0% : berserking_oh
        20.5% : envenom
        98.4% : hunger_for_blood
        97.6% : slice_and_dice
        20.0% : tricks_of_the_trade

Waiting:
    33.4% : Rogue_7_21_43
    33.5% : Rogue_15_51_5
    53.3% : Rogue_51_13_7


#54 Aldriana

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:41 AM

Something's still wrong in the realm of finishers, at least for Mutilate; Relentless Strikes regen is way low relative to Focused Attacks, and 6% envenom damage seems low as well (~9-10% is more typical). For that matter, yellow damage as a whole is low; you have 44% white and 18% Mutilate, when 38-40% and 22% are more typical for those numbers (at least for me)

Also, I could be reading this wrong, but it looks to me as though Instant and Wound poisons aren't critting, and they should be. Plus, Deadly Poison damage seems high, though that might tie into the finisher thing - fewer Envenoms would mean more DP damage.

#55 path411

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 05:16 AM

Edit: I just realized something stupid in my post, but I have a different point.

As Aldriana stated, your finishers are very low, especially envenoms, I managed to have 15 envenoms in my last patchwerk, which should be roughly half of the length of the fight in the simcraft. (If I'm correct in remembering you were basing off a 300s boss)

For your HAT modeling, when using 2 fast it will be better to use double wound. As well, 3 rogues in your group is normally subpar, dks are normally what you want to fill when you don't have hunters.

#56 Punscho

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:58 AM

Not to my knowledge. And yes, HAT rogues just spam finishers.

#57 Loot

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:34 AM

A glance at the code, just random search, not inspected it, found this...
if( p -> buffs_poison_doses )
{
player_multiplier *= 1.0 + p -> talents.savage_combat * 0.01;
player_crit += p -> talents.master_poisoner * 0.01;
}
That made me wonder how you handle such overlapping raid buffs, something like external config on the buffs present? Because for example 3% crit is kinda expected (retradin, ele) to be present, and if it is enabled from outside, this code will just double its value for the player, or I'm totally wrong :P

#58 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 01:37 PM

Something's still wrong in the realm of finishers, at least for Mutilate; Relentless Strikes regen is way low relative to Focused Attacks, and 6% envenom damage seems low as well (~9-10% is more typical). For that matter, yellow damage as a whole is low; you have 44% white and 18% Mutilate, when 38-40% and 22% are more typical for those numbers (at least for me)

Also, I could be reading this wrong, but it looks to me as though Instant and Wound poisons aren't critting, and they should be. Plus, Deadly Poison damage seems high, though that might tie into the finisher thing - fewer Envenoms would mean more DP damage.


I'll look into the poison crits.... Good catch, thanks!

I also need to dive into my energy regen modeling..... The speed of combo-point generation seems off considering the discrepancy in finisher-frequency. There is a "proc" section where I list "combo points per second". Does that seem off?

For your HAT modeling, when using 2 fast it will be better to use double wound. As well, 3 rogues in your group is normally subpar, dks are normally what you want to fill when you don't have hunters.


This particular run had 3xRogue and 2xHunter in one party. I'm afraid I haven't started working on DKs yet....... Rogue model still needs some lovin obviously......

A glance at the code, just random search, not inspected it, found this...
if( p -> buffs_poison_doses )
{
player_multiplier *= 1.0 + p -> talents.savage_combat * 0.01;
player_crit += p -> talents.master_poisoner * 0.01;
}
That made me wonder how you handle such overlapping raid buffs, something like external config on the buffs present? Because for example 3% crit is kinda expected (retradin, ele) to be present, and if it is enabled from outside, this code will just double its value for the player, or I'm totally wrong :P


I didn't realize that Master Poisoner did not overlap with the 5% from Shaman/Boomkin....... ?

action -> attack -> rogue_attack -> special/melee
action -> spell -> rogue_poison -> wound/instant/deadly

Each one of those classes have a player_buff() and a target_debuff() method that cascade. The 3% crit should be included.

Action: http://simulationcra...k/sc_action.cpp
Attack: http://simulationcra...k/sc_attack.cpp
Spell: http://simulationcra...nk/sc_spell.cpp

#59 ShadowEric

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 02:01 PM

I didn't realize that Master Poisoner did not overlap with the 5% from Shaman/Boomkin....... ?


Boomkin ? Just to be clear, Master Poisoner does not stack with a Paladin's Heart of the Crusader and an Elemental Shaman's Totem of Wrath. They fall under the same buff/debuff category under Blizzard's new buff system and those 3 don't stack.

#60 PessimiStick

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 02:42 PM

From looking at the latest set of data, I agree with Aldriana that the breakdowns are still a bit off. The same can be said for the HAT numbers, my Evisc/White are generally 50-55/30-35 or somewhere around there.

Also, from the uptime section it seems that either there needs to be some additional logic for the action list that checks energy remaining, or the sim is going to have a tough time modeling Mut. Anything less than 100% HfB uptime is really unacceptable due to the penalty you take for dropping it, and the same for SnD.




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