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Sartharion 3D Druid MT tips


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#21 Caniki

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 02:02 PM

We got our first Heroic:Sarth+3 kill last night. I tanked Sarth (I hesitate to say Main Tank, because all of the tanks jobs are important), here are a few of my observations. I used the Polar set, plus pretty much best in slot naxx25 gear. I had 4pc T7.25 for the Barkskin duration set bonus, and used the Alchemist Stone and Essence of Gossamer. I didn't have any fire resist gear, just a paladin aura. I used the Effulgent Skyflare Diamond meta. After raid buffs, I had exactly 50k HP, I didn't bother looking at armor since it doesn't really matter. After the pull and you have the positioning correct, the fight is pretty simple until the second and third drakes are down. I did my best to juggle Twilight Torment, but the best thing we did was to coordinate a cooldown usage rotation over vent. In addition to my Survival Instincts, Guardian Spirit and Pain Suppression were used to mitigate the large breaths. My raid bloodlusted when the first drake was at 50%, killed all of the adds, and then killed the second drake and third drakes. After the third drake was down they cleared out the portals, and then killed Sartharion. It took us about three nights of practice. We ended up with six healers and 5 tanks since we previously had problems with add management.

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#22 Habba

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 02:50 PM

Bah maybe its because of morning but i dont understand what you mean by the sentence i highlighted.

I have autoattack off. I hit mangle cca 1 sec before cast is finished, which means the debuff falls off cca 0.7-0.5 secs before the breath lands. I am not sure what else should i be timing?


That's it. The only other factor in there is your latency which you'll either learn/wipe/hit the safety net (CDs). What I was trying to communicate is that the twilight torment reflective damage has a 1 second cool down. This means that when proc'd it will not damage you again for another full second. When the effect is triggered it consumes the damage increase. The current mechanic is to completely remove the debuff and let the aura's heart beat tick reapply the debuff. This is why even though the cool down is 1 second latency and just plain bad luck can cause you to regain the buff just before the breath hits.

The only thing you can try to time is the debuff removal and that would be halfway through the breath cast. Really you should be using cool downs as a 'just in case' type measure.

#23 Vaccine

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 03:05 PM

The problem is the Global Cooldown that can be caused preventing you from using Barkskin and the like as oh shit and having to use them as a saftey net. We were doing 10 man:

Breath 1: Guardian Spirit - Spell - World of Warcraft
Breath 2: Hand of Sacrifice - Spell - World of Warcraft
Breath 3: SI + Barkskin (Casting at 9 seconds after the last breath as in the main 3d thread it said the minimum time between breaths was 14 seconds)

After that the first Vesperon acolyte is dead and we can recover a little and then when we launch into the next breaths where I'm on my own to ensure I knocked it off, its very hit and miss and I've certainly experienced sub 1 second removals only for it to pop back up.

We were also talking for 10 man of getting both the holy and the ret to spec this gem:
Divine Guardian - Spell - World of Warcraft

Which just looks amazing for this fight, not only does it cut the breah to about 30k if you miss, it sucks up damage from your other tanks and raid members giving the healers (if chained) a full 24 seconds of 30% less raid damage which has got to be handy.

I'm thinking of taking the group back with this and using the second pallys hand on breath 4, then the two pallys DG for 5 and 6. Vesperon should be dead along with his 2nd acolyte by then and thats pretty much the fight done.
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#24 Lobonija

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 04:23 PM

The easiest way I've found for the "critical breaths" is to simply stop attacking for that period of time and waiting for him to cast, loading up a maul + mangle 1/3 through the cast and enabling survival instincts for the first breath. Barkskin + mighty fire protection potion for the second breath, and a guardian spirit for the third. That's all we ever use and attacking 1/3 of the way through the cast seems to be the sweet spot for me ( probably unique to my latency? ) as I'm not really ever hit by large breaths anymore, and the guardian spirit never blooms.

#25 Falk

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 05:44 PM

Also, clearing Twilight Torment is certainly non-trivial. It's reapplied very randomly, and with the pitiful Hit/Expertise you will have in a full Polar set, you'll have plenty of times that it simply won't go away.


Mobs don't dodge/block/parry while casting. And 40hit/40sta food is your friend!

#26 killets

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 01:00 AM

6342 * 2 = 12684 * .88 * .97 = 10827

First hit was a 50% resist, 2nd was 50% with Shadron Acolyte.

For the rest, I'm not exactly sure what I'm seeing, did you edit out absorbs, or were some of these not just Shadron Debuff?


I don't think I editted anything. But here is the WWS, maybe it'll help?
Wow Web Stats

We were doing 10 man:

Breath 1: Guardian Spirit - Spell - World of Warcraft

Barkskin + mighty fire protection potion for the second breath, and a guardian spirit for the third.


I was under the impression that Guardian Spirit didn't work on Bears (there are many many posts regarding this on the WoWForums). Basically, I think you guys just got lucky.

#27 Valerian

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 03:08 AM

I was under the impression that Guardian Spirit didn't work on Bears (there are many many posts regarding this on the WoWForums). Basically, I think you guys just got lucky.


I've had Guardian Spirit save me in bear form. Unless its a bug that doesn't always happen...

#28 Boevis

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 09:36 AM

I am clearly out of touch with how resists work now, it seems that it no longer follows a 0-25-50-75-100 percentage scale.

#29 Inaiwae

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 09:52 AM

I am also quite sure that guardian spirit works sometimes. I estimate i used spirit cca 10 times so far and i recall 1 failure but i didnt know about the bug so i just dismissed it (i survived).

#30 Emrex

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:17 PM

My experience with this fight has been very similar to the others. The first few times we did the fight we actually did it without any kind of save the bear rotation, which I would not recommend. One of our priests has recently switched to Disc. and between Spirit, when it decides to work, and PS that is usually enough to get us through the TT phase of the fight.

For those of you that are Leatherworkers do you feel that the +90 Stam or the +60 Fire Resist to bracers is more beneficial in this fight? I personally am using the FR to help mitigate a little more of the Breath and random cyclone damage. I haven't found the loss in health to be an issue.

Nightcrowler, kind of in summary of what the others have said. The fight is really only going to be bad for the Sarth tank and his/her healers during the Twilight Torment phase. As soon as Vesperon opens his portal I stop attacking/using anything that will activate my GCD. During this phase you will die if you take a full breath attack from him. Several ways to mitigate the breath are:
Pain Suppression from a Discipline Priest.
Hand of Sacrifice from a Paladin.
Barkskin/SI from yourself.
Guardian Spirit from a Holy Priest. (Although like the others I have seen this not work 100% in the past, haven't noticed any issues on Sarth 3 though.)
In addition to mitigating the breath with a cooldown, you will want to try and avoid/dance the TT debuff. When Sarth begins casting his breath, you will need to find a spot that works for you based on latency and close enough to the end of the cast, use an instant attack like Mangle or swipe. This will trigger the TT debuff and you will take 2-3k damage, the debuff drops for a very brief period of time (between 1 and 2 seconds).
Expect to see between 2 and 4 breaths during the phase with TT and Shadron both alive. Once Shadron is down it is pretty much game over. You no longer need to worry about a save the bear rotation.

#31 Gallowglass

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:13 AM

We 1shot sarth+2 last week and are planning to start work on sarth +3 this week. I have a set that gets me ~55k buffed (polar pieces + PVP pieces).

My guild is also in a nice situation in that we have 1 pretty well geared tank of each class, meaning that along with me, we also have a well geared DK tank. My main question is wether it would be better to have me tank sarth, or the DK. It prettymuch seems to come down to my larger health buffer Vs his better on use mitigation abilities such as boneshield, icebound fort and anti-magic shell.

Have any of you experiened both classes tanking and have any input as to which seems more effective given that both are available?

#32 ninor

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:35 AM

I think the biggest difference between a DK tank and a druid is tanking the adds. From my experience a DK would have a lot easier time tanking the drakes and all the adds than a druid will. In 10 man 3D having control of the adds is very important, probably one of the most important aspects of the fight. It helps your healers tremendously to keep the MT up when they don't have a blaze hitting them. Tanking Sartharion himself is easily done by any tanking class as long as you have enough gear to not get one-shotted and know how to remove the debuff before breaths.

#33 Gallowglass

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:11 PM

Sorry, I should mention that I am specifically talking about 25man. Last week (2 drakes) we had myself on Sarth, a pali on the blazes/welps and a warrior on the drakes with the DK sitting out. In tank chat, both the pali and DK seemed to think that the DK would make a better tank for when we do it with 3 drakes up.

#34 Vaccine

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 01:50 PM

Sorry, I should mention that I am specifically talking about 25man. Last week (2 drakes) we had myself on Sarth, a pali on the blazes/welps and a warrior on the drakes with the DK sitting out. In tank chat, both the pali and DK seemed to think that the DK would make a better tank for when we do it with 3 drakes up.



We use 4 tanks usually, 2 on the adds. How many healers are you using? Our breakthrough came when we dropped from 7 to 6 to 5 healers for it. The extra DPS lets you down Tenebron before Shadron and unless you're unlucky on walls, Shadron before Vesperon. This pretty much trivialises the fight as you don't get the cross over of Power of Shadron - Spell - World of Warcraft and Twilight Torment - Spell - World of Warcraft together making it so much easier. After that you just have to have someone that can take the blows of Sartharion once all the drakes are down, its a non-trivial increase in damage taken, its why I don't advocate using the Polar set for 25 man. Either that or you can have the drake Warrior tank in his normal tanking set taunt it off you at that point.

As for Guardian Spirit I've never had any issues with it and have seen it several times save me from a killing blow and top me up (whilst disappearing as its consumed).
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#35 Gallowglass

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 02:15 PM

have the drake Warrior tank in his normal tanking set taunt it off you at that point.


This was my thinking also. My main question still stands - assuming we do have a number of critical breaths do deal with, what is better from a healing/surviving perspective while we are learning the fight - a feral with a high HP buffer with barkskin/SI for 1 breath, or a DK with multiple CDs available to him. Assuming both will also have outside cooldowns being used on them. Do you feel the difference between the 2 tanks trivial or that the benefits of 1 outweighs the other.

Much like a how feral makes the best OT on patch, or how a warrior/pali's block mechanic makes them better at taking a lot of small hits. All tanks are obviously viable, some just more-so in specific instances.

#36 Daboran

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:28 PM

DKs are pretty awesome at tanking the whelps/adds to be honest. Taunt, Deathgrip, static and "mobile" aoe damage skills. Given the choice I'd have them doing that every time.

#37 Habba

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:32 PM

We 1shot sarth+2 last week and are planning to start work on sarth +3 this week. I have a set that gets me ~55k buffed (polar pieces + PVP pieces).

My guild is also in a nice situation in that we have 1 pretty well geared tank of each class, meaning that along with me, we also have a well geared DK tank. My main question is wether it would be better to have me tank sarth, or the DK. It prettymuch seems to come down to my larger health buffer Vs his better on use mitigation abilities such as boneshield, icebound fort and anti-magic shell.

Have any of you experiened both classes tanking and have any input as to which seems more effective given that both are available?


Sounds like someone wasn't happy about sitting to me. The DK or the Druid will be effective given that both players are equally skilled.

From what I've heard/seen on 3 drake a DK's cool downs is what makes or breaks it. If he has enough to last while you guys kill shadron, then he's fine but once all 3 adds are down you better have a mitigation geared tank taunt because the DK is going to spike hard with 75% increased physical from Sartharion.

Again that is from what I've seen, it could be that I've just seen some terrible DKs and that they do fine tanking him after all the drakes are down.

#38 Gnosh

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:33 PM

We tried (again) last night without much luck. A lot of it comes down to people not dieing to void zones/adds but timing during the breaths seemed difficult too.

One thing I noticed is that I can never see the TT debuff. I even set up a MSBT alert but it never went off. I don't know if this is a bug or you're supposed to just assume it's always up after the disciple is spawned.

I'm going to suggest we drop down to 6 and 5 dps and see if that works better. Save BL for the second drake maybe then.

#39 kalbear

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:54 PM

BLing on the first or the second drake doesn't really matter unless you can reliably get the first drake down before the second drake without a bloodlust. As long as they overlap at all, they essentially share one health pool (since you won't be killing the second one before the first one).

If you can't see the TT debuff for whatever reason, you must set up a cooldown rotation for the breaths. Otherwise you will die. The other option is to stop attacking entirely when Vesperon hits (turn off autoattacks too) and make sure to only attack when a breath is coming. Even then, I'd want to see the debuff get removed.

#40 Pioneerjd

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:56 PM

One thing I noticed is that I can never see the TT debuff. I even set up a MSBT alert but it never went off. I don't know if this is a bug or you're supposed to just assume it's always up after the disciple is spawned.


I had the same issue seeing the Torment debuff - I set up a custom Grid Debuff Aura as a 99 priority center icon, and it appeared consistently (it looked like the Vampiric Embrace icon). However, I can't get BuffBars to find it, nor does my custom SCT Alert show it. I have a hunch it has something to do with the source of the debuff being in the twilight realm, but that doesn't explain why Grid shows it.




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