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#21 Plankel

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 02:40 AM


[b]FB Optimal Gearset


This may be overly tangential assuming an exclusively ordinal focus on optimal gearsets, but I feel it's worth noting that FB spec can take the ideal FFB gearset, replace with , replace the 3 with 2 and 1 , and end up only 6 DPS behind the optimal FB gearset, which differs by 3 pieces - Heigan chest, Malygos belt, and T7.5 head - none of which an optimally geared FFB mage is likely to have picked up.

This point may be of interest to those who have already obtained the ideal FFB gearset and intend to switch to FB spec come 3.0.8, or to a more general audience given the nature of loot tables and RNG.


I just turned this around and ran the optimal fire set through rawr for a ffb spec with crit gems and sundial and you lose an amazing 4 dps compared to the optimal ffb set (although my dps value is 50 dps lower then enthorns for some reason). The difference is so small I can't imagine anybody actually switching those 3 items.


To the poster above me, Rawr can show you how much extra hit/crit/haste/spellpower/int and stuff increases your dps yes. I suppose those values could be included in the OP, but the entire purpose of Rawr is so you can work out what the best gear setup is you have available. So instead of calculating that with those general ratings they should just load up rawr and find the answer that way.

#22 Enthorn

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:03 AM

FB spec can take the ideal FFB gearset, replace with , replace the 3 with 2 and 1 , and end up only 6 DPS behind the optimal FB gearset


Alright, I mirrored this finally. It took a while, and I ended up at varying DPS results along the way (5867, 5890) before arriving at 6061.84. Nice way to look at it for transitioning to 18.53. Very informative. Thanks.

#23 Malfeas

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:23 AM

Running with settings identical to your own, I am getting different results for 53.18.

instead of Gothik's Cowl.

instead of the Cincture of Polarity.

instead of the Frostfire Legs.

DPS is 5748.41
Hit Rate is 13.99%

However, every time I run the optimizer, it seems to randomly pick between and as the off-set piece. The hit rate on the set is 14.06%. When the optimizer picks the Heigan Robe set, dps is about 8 lower.

When I run with the Draenei aura, it takes instead of the Razuv bracers.

In any case, the choice in belt and the choice in helm are always different than what your set shows. Not sure why this is.

Edit: About one in ten times running the optimizer, I get instead of the Heigan Robe set. When this happens, the Nerubian wand gets replaced with the . DPS is again slightly lower than the "Wanton Spellcaster set".

#24 Enthorn

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:54 PM

Running with settings identical to your own, I am getting different results for 53.18.


I switched Gothik's Cowl for Valorous Circlet, Valorous Leggings for Wanton Leggings, Cincture for Leesh, and changed the potent gem in the shoulders to a runed dragon's eye (the one that was in gothik's cowl). I end up with 5668.94 DPS.

Crit rate: 582, Hit rate: 286, Haste: 505, Spell: 2720

This is 2.46 DPS less than where I started, so there must be something enabled on your end that is changing things. When I turn on Focus Magic (which shouldn't be on), DPS goes to 5858.87.

When I edit Illustration of the Dragon Soul to 260 spell power (and Focus Magic off), it puts me at 5757.66 DPS, which is still less than where you are. Do you have "Mighty Spellpower" on your offhand, or any extra "hidden" gems in your waist item? More than one Runed Dragon's Eye?

#25 Hibbo

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:24 PM

First thank you very much for this great Work Enthorn!!
I tried to add my Arcane Spec, Equip and Buffs in the way you have listed your's.
Maybe someone has some hints to tune this Combination.


Rawr version: 2.1.6
Race: Undead (No Heroic Presence, Berserking, or Expansive Mind)
Latency: 0.1
Enabled: Heroism/Bloodlust, Potion of Wild Magic, Potion of Speed
Heroism Control: Optimal
Innervate and Mana Tide Totem are set to 0. They are irrelevent unless you increase the duration of the fight.
Enabled: Evocation, Mana Potion, Mana Gem
Snared Time: 1
Focus Magic Rate: 0.200
Duration: 300
Enabled: Incremental Optimizations, Reconstruct Sequence, 3.0.8 Mode
Glyphs: Glyph of Arcane Blast, Glyph of Mage Armor, Glyph of Arcane Power

Buffs:
Improved Moonkin Form
Arcane Intellect
Vampiric Touch
Mana Spring Totem (Restorative Totems)
Blessing of Wisdom (Improved Blessing of Wisdom)
Elemental Oath
Focus Magic
Wrath of Air Totem
Totem of Wrath
Divine Spirit
Mark of the Wild (Improved Mark of the Wild)
Blessing of Kings (Improved Blessing of Kings)
Mage Armor
Judgement of Wisdom
Improved Scorch
Earth and Moon
Misery
Flask of the Frost Wyrm (+37 Spell Power, Alchemy Profession)
Spell Power Food (Firecracker Salmon, Tender Shoveltusk Steak)

Professions: Alchemy, Jewelcrafting

Spec: 57.3.11 Arcane
Crit Rate: 402 - 47.66%
Hit Rate: 219 - 11.35%
Haste: 669 (/32.789 = 20.40%)
Casting Speed: 1.381458
Spell Power: 3055
DPS: 6202,04
Damage breakdown:
Arcane Blast: 51,46%
Arcane Missiles 28,99%
Arcane Barrage 19,55%
Mana Regen:
MP5: 196
Mana Regen in 5SR: 1066
Set Bonus DPS:
2-piece: 112.89
4-piece: 59.99
Consumables/Cooldowns:
Mana Gem, Icy Veins, Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, Combustion, Mirror Image (Not modeled in Rawr)

: , ,
:
: ,
: , Greater Speed
: , , Powerful Stats
: , Superior Spellpower
: , Exceptional Spellpower
: ,
: , ,
: Icewalker
:
, (200 SP)
: Mighty Spellpower
,

#26 Plankel

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:59 PM

hmm, some weird things going on in that list.
First off I never heard of anybody enchanting a blue gem with a bracer enchant, but lets say you mean instead. Even then you are putting a runed dragon's eye in a red gem slot, when you have several orange gems. That can't be right (if it was, every red gemslot should have haste/dmg gems).

Also

Innervate and Mana Tide Totem are set to 0. They are irrelevent unless you increase the duration of the fight.


I can't agree with this statement. The headpiece and ring choice show arcane is struggling for mana. I am curious what happens if you add a mana tide, will it go for the ffb setup minus 3% hit then?

#27 jak3676

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 04:00 PM

Thanks for all work all.

Both for the sake of completion and to show the differences is anyone working on this for a frost mage (18/0/53)? If not I'll see what I can come up with. Yes, I know it's a good 1k DPS behind the others.

#28 Hibbo

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 04:19 PM

Indeed you are right the complete line was messed up.
It should be Unsullied Cuffs with a Runed Scarlet Ruby, the 3 Runed Dragon Eye's are used in the Head, Necklace and the Cloak.

I only like to add Buffs where i can be sure to have this. An Innervate in our Setup always goes to Heal Priests, and a Mana Tide can be messed up because of range Problems.

Just think about the Head Piece and the Ring in terms of a lesser uptime of Evocation, that ends in higher DPS.
Even when i adjust RAWR to infinite Mana this 2 Pieces are best in Slot for this Spec, because Spell Power and Haste are scaling so well with Arcane.

#29 Enthorn

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:01 PM

I can't agree with this statement. The headpiece and ring choice show arcane is struggling for mana. I am curious what happens if you add a mana tide, will it go for the ffb setup minus 3% hit then?


As far as my own comment about innervate and mana tide in Fireball and Frostfire builds, they are indeed irrelevent in that with a duration of 300 or less, your DPS is unaffected by them because you won't run out of mana to need them. Whether Hibbo knowingly left my comment in his post concerning Arcane, I don't know.

I've never received an innervate in 25-man, nor have I needed one, but I've never played Arcane either. Mana Tides I don't include because in a 25-man, I'm usually seeing groups of 2 resto shamans, 2 holy paladins, and a holy priest, thus I making the mana tide not optional. But then, I've never needed one in practical settings.

#30 Tucker

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:07 PM

In the OP you have FOUR major glyphs listed. Shouldn't there only be three?

#31 Zephriel

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:34 PM

It's likely he left all four checked as a matter of convenience (read: one less thing to go wrong during spec comparisons). 18/53/0 will never cast FFB, and 0/53/18 will never cast FB, so leaving all four checked would have no impact on the DPS results.

#32 Docjowles

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:40 PM

In the OP you have FOUR major glyphs listed. Shouldn't there only be three?


I think it's implied that you use the Frostfire glyph with the FFB gearset and the Fireball glyph with the FB gearset.

#33 verrückt

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:07 PM

I have found another gear combination for 18/53/0 spec which gives me 6219 dps with the current buff & fight setup. You can find the xml file through the link. I double checked everything and could not find any mistakes.

Here you can find the xml file compressed.

#34 exem

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:37 PM

I wasn't sure if this was the proper thread to post under, but it involves Rawr and gearing myself optimally, so I figured why not.

Is it possible for fireball spec to outdps frostfire spec right now (pre-3.0.8)? I ran a few numbers on my current gear, and if I switch out the Azure Cloth Bindings for Preceptor's Bindings, and change a few gems over to +hit (all other variables remain the same), fireball spec WILL outdps frostfire spec.

Does Rawr assume the boss is snared? The DPS difference is about 100dps in favor of fireball.

Edit: nvm, I think I figured it out. If I drop Torment the Weak in the fireball build to simulate having no snare on a boss, the builds are about even (fireball falls about 30dps behind frostfire).

#35 manapaws

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:50 PM

I wasn't sure if this was the proper thread to post under, but it involves Rawr and gearing myself optimally, so I figured why not.

Is it possible for fireball spec to outdps frostfire spec right now (pre-3.0.8)? I ran a few numbers on my current gear, and if I switch out the Azure Cloth Bindings for Preceptor's Bindings, and change a few gems over to +hit (all other variables remain the same), fireball spec WILL outdps frostfire spec.

Does Rawr assume the boss is snared? The DPS difference is about 100dps in favor of fireball.


How about posting a link to the rawr xml file of this?

#36 GnomerTerp

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:05 PM

How reliable is rawr's optimizer? I've seen non-reproducible results from it in the past. Have you hand-checked this set as well and compared it to other possibilities, such as:

Breaking 4 pc or not/which offpiece(s) are optimal
Gown of the Spell-Weaver and possible benefits of excess hit/gear juggling
Leash of Heedless Magic vs Cincture of Polarity
Unsullied Cuffs vs Bindings of the Expansive Mind


As far as the last two go, I can typically get a draenei (sp?) in my group. Rawr seems to lean towards equipping the leash and the bindings. It's always had my non-tier piece as gothik's cowl.

#37 Kavan

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:15 PM

Just a word of caution. I wouldn't recommend using 2.1.6 build to make any final decisions on arcane as it has some bugs in arcane cycles and doesn't include the optimal cycles and updated AB base damage. Either wait for next release or use the dev build.

#38 Enthorn

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 12:11 AM

I have found another gear combination for 18/53/0 spec which gives me 6219 dps with the current buff & fight setup. You can find the xml file through the link. I double checked everything and could not find any mistakes.

Here you can find the xml file compressed.


I've loaded your XML file -- I get 6026.34 DPS:

5875.95 - latency is set at 0.05, which is impractical for the majority of players. I keep it at 0.1.
5932.40 - 2/2 Magic Absorption and Dragon's Breath instead of 3/3 World in Flames
5864.57 - Maintain Scorch isn't enabled.
5926.87 - fight duration set to 420 seconds (7 minutes) instead of 300 (5 minutes).
5744.65 - Unlimited Mana is enabled
5774.08 - Restorative Totems is not enabled
5786.53 - Focus Magic rate is at 0.21. I recommend 0.324 (based on 60.34% Fireball crit rate).
5789.10 - Fel Intelligence instead of Divine Spirit.

Next, the gear...

5743.35 - Swap Embrace for Dying Curse.
5812.54 - 40 Hit food for 46 Spell Power food.
5839.49 - Cincture of Polarity for Leash of Heedless Magic.
5657.52 - : for
5842.83 - : , for ,

Now, the DPS is going to be lower, because you're missing 64 spell power from . You lose 23 on the necklace and chest (32-9), and 18 on the cloak (32-19+5). However, for some reason, it says you're going to run out of mana even though you have, as far as I can tell, identical stats now.

Okay, you had 'Drinking Time' under Options -> Fight set to 0. What happens then is that you start the fight with 0 mana, and if you enable reconstruction, you'll see that it says you will run out of mana right off the bat. It then uses a mana gem and evocates immediately, followed by a mana potion. Setting this to the default 300 increases DPS to 6072.51, which is exactly what my own set is at.

These are the kinds of things you need to be careful of in Rawr.

#39 verrückt

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 02:33 AM

After reading your post Enthorn, i thought "can't be". However, apparently after double checking all settings I made a mistake and compressed another file and uploaded it. Duh.. Besides that i skipped the latency setup as well.

I uploaded the correct file after making latency 0,1. You see with my setup the dps decreases to 6072,11 almost same with what you have with several gear pieces different. BUT i kept drinking time "0".

If you type 300 for drinking time, then i see the new dps value as: 6204,80

I hope u can check again. Thanks in advance.

#40 Kavan

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 03:20 AM

Why would you want drinking time set to 0 is beyond me. This setting is only meaningful if you want to simulate trash pulls with chain pulling.




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