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Optimal Sets / Item Discussion


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#41 Enthorn

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 04:21 AM

You see with my setup the dps decreases to 6072,11 almost same with what you have with several gear pieces different. BUT i kept drinking time "0".

If you type 300 for drinking time, then i see the new dps value as: 6204,80

I hope u can check again. Thanks in advance.


I've downloaded this file and opening it shows DPS at 5876.77. If I change drinking time to 300, DPS is at 5997.98. Again, just as Kavan said, I don't know why you have drinking time set to 0. It's starting you at 0 mana for the fight. That can't possibly make any sense to you.

Even so, 5997.98 DPS (version 2.1.6) is still less than the 6072.51 I've posted. You still have some problems in your set though. First, you have too much hit. It's a small DPS increase to switch the veiled to a reckless in the robes. Next, there's no reason to use the Runed Dragon's Eye in your gloves. It's another DPS increase to switch the Dragon's Eye to a Runed Scarlet Ruby, and replace the Reckless gem in your robes with the Dragon's Eye. We're now at 6003.87.

Next we'll switch out the Rigid Dragon's Eye, a loss of 54 hit, and replace them with Runed, for a gain of 64 spell damage. This drops DPS considerably (5977.91).

To make up for this, we're dropping the Unsullied Cuffs for Bindings of the Expansive Mind (-42 useless spirit, -34 haste, -18 spell power, +43 crit, +28 hit). This puts our DPS at 6020.40. We're still 52.11 behind though. You have two stats holding you back: spirit on your helm and spirit on your chestpiece. One of these has to go. Replacing your robes with Heigan's Putrid Vestments (Runed Dragon's Eye and Reckless gem) puts DPS at 6021.66. It's a small DPS upgrade because we've lost the 4-piece set bonus.

To get this back, we equip Valorous Frostfire leggings with 1 Runed and 1 Veiled. This puts us at 6041.75. Equipping Leash of Heedless Magic drops us to 5978.12, but replacing Embrace with Dying Curse puts us at 6061.47. Change the Veiled in the leggings to a Reckless and you end up at 6072.51.

#42 Heator

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 07:06 AM

Just wanted to point out, that the "No Heroic Presence" assumption is a pretty significant one in this context. For Alliance Mages, where the Presenc is all but a given, the optimal Gearset is different and yields obviously higher DPS.

If the intend of this thread is to discuss the Horde-Mage Gear Setup, consider this as a reminder not to spend much of your DKP on Dying Curse if you're Alliance, just as an example:)

You can find those xmls here

http://elitistjerks....74/#post1044501

The settings are not identical, just adjust them to compare, the resullts are higher DPS and, more important, a different Gear-Choice.

#43 Plankel

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 10:29 AM

After some troubleshooting, I was able to mirror your results with a difference of ~2 dps (5669.38). I found out that using the optimizer with low thoroughness gave strange varying results; obviously because it only considers direct upgrades and not the possible EP values of all gear sets.

It seems that Alliance mages with Heroic Presence just switch out for with an increase in dps from 5669.38 to 5685.06 according to my results.


Sounds like a pretty decent comparision right here, and fire/arc mages still want dying curse (tbh every mage should have one just in case)

#44 verrückt

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 10:47 AM

I've downloaded this file and opening it shows DPS at 5876.77. If I change drinking time to 300, DPS is at 5997.98.


How can that be? i open the file and i directly see 6072,11 DPS without Drinking Time.

Why i turn off Drinking Time? Because I don't understand why should the simulation begin with 0 mana. But anyways, if I make it 300, then i get 6204 dps.

how can it be that we see different values?

PS: i have the same version of rawr.

edit1: I just downloaded the new version of rawr and loaded the same file. However the new Rawr begins with 5968,64 DPS without drinking time. Of course, i updated drinking time to 300 and new dps is: 6091,77 which is different value than u see when u load the file i sent. I still wonder why do we see different results with the same file on different Rawr versions or with same rawr versions on different computers.

edit2: here is the new xml file which i opened and saved with new version of rawr.

#45 Enthorn

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 03:14 PM

Okay, I downloaded new version of Rawr as well. DPS on my file when I open it is 6072.51 (did you remember to change Illustration of the Dragon Soul to 200 spell power?). When I open your file, I see 6092.67.
However, this is with Illustration at 260 spell power. Change it to 200 and we drop to 5998.85.

When I make the exact changes that I listed in my post above, I end up at 6072.51.

#46 Korrigan

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 05:01 PM

Just wanted to point out, that the "No Heroic Presence" assumption is a pretty significant one in this context. For Alliance Mages, where the Presenc is all but a given, the optimal Gearset is different and yields obviously higher DPS.

If the intend of this thread is to discuss the Horde-Mage Gear Setup, consider this as a reminder not to spend much of your DKP on Dying Curse if you're Alliance, just as an example:)

You can find those xmls here

http://elitistjerks....74/#post1044501

The settings are not identical, just adjust them to compare, the resullts are higher DPS and, more important, a different Gear-Choice.


As you are quoting my post, I reviewed my choices once again and tried them in Rawr 2.1.7 with the same settings as before. The new results suggest, that even as an alliance mage with Heroic Presence, Dying Curse, Unsullied Cuffs and Leash of Heedless Magic are the better choices. My old setup with Embrace of the Spider, Bindings of Expansive Mind and Cincture of Polarity yields 23 dps less.

P.S.: You obviously have to switch out some gems too. I will upload my new xmls.

#47 bombdigie

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 05:39 PM

Hibbo,

You have to have spirit, those pieces are severely lacking in spirit. That gear is not sustainable at all.

#48 Veovis_

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:41 PM

anyone got a clue, if Rawr calculate the down time from Evocation (dps loss)

#49 verrückt

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:30 PM

did you remember to change Illustration of the Dragon Soul to 200 spell power?


Nope, that was my problem. :)

thanks a lot for checking the files.

#50 Korrigan

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:53 AM

I would like to contribute a draft for the arcane version of this topic:

Rawr version: 2.1.8
Race: Human (No Berserking or Expansive Mind)
Latency: 0.1
Enabled: Heroism/Bloodlust, Potion of Wild Magic, Potion of Speed, Flame Cap (no snare, no scorch)
Combo Reliability (0-1): 1 (probably possible with some training)
Heroism Control: Optimal
Innervate and Mana Tide Totem are set to 0.
Enabled: Average Cooldowns, Evocation, Mana Potion, Mana Gem
Snared Time: 1
Focus Magic Rate: 0,324 (based on a Fireball crit rate of 60.34% before Focus Magic - not sure if we change this as arcane mages)
Duration: 300
Enabled: Incremental Optimizations
Glyphs: Glyph of Molten Armor, Glyph of Arcane Power, Glyph of Arcane Blast

Buffs:
Improved Moonkin Form
Arcane Intellect
Vampiric Touch
Mana Spring Totem (Restorative Totems)
Blessing of Wisdom (Improved Blessing of Wisdom)
Elemental Oath
Focus Magic
Wrath of Air Totem
Totem of Wrath
Divine Spirit
Mark of the Wild (Improved Mark of the Wild)
Blessing of Kings (Improved Blessing of Kings)
Molten Armor
Heroic Presence
Judgement of Wisdom
Improved Scorch
Earth and Moon
Misery
Flask of the Frost Wyrm
Spell Power Food (Firecracker Salmon, Tender Shoveltusk Steak)

Professions: Enchanting, Jewelcrafting

Spec: 57/3/11 Arcane
Spell Stats
Crit Rate: 350 - 51,92%
Hit Rate: 195 - 14,43%
Haste: 645 (/32,789 = 19,67%)
Casting Speed: 1,373
Spell Power: 3048,2
DPS: 6790,17
Damage breakdown:
Arcane Blast: 49,34%
Arcane Missiles: 34,13%
Arcane Barrage: 16,53%
Crit rates:
Arcane Blast: 57,92%
Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage: 51,92%
Set Bonus DPS:
2-piece: 97,38
4-piece: 69,34
Consumables/Cooldowns:
Mana Gem, Icy Veins, Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, Evocation, Arcane Power, Mirror Image (Not modeled in Rawr), Presence of Mind (also not modeled in Rawr?)

: , ,
:
: ,
: , Greater Speed
: , , Powerful Stats
: , Superior Spellpower
: , Exceptional Spellpower
: ,
: , ,
: Icewalker
, : Greater Spellpower
, (200 SP)
: Mighty Spellpower
, ( is better if there is no mana issue or you are horde)

#51 holovic

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:52 PM

It doesn't seem to me that [Band of Channeled Magic] , [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] , and [Unsullied Cuffs] are best in slot for that build. Although perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on crit instead of haste.
Holovic - <TG> - Horde US Arthas

#52 nathanbp

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:18 PM

It doesn't seem to me that [Band of Channeled Magic] , [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] , and [Unsullied Cuffs] are best in slot for that build. Although perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on crit instead of haste.


Rawr thinks (and I've seen no evidence to the contrary), that haste is much better for acrane specs than crit is. Remember that FFB has really high crit multiplier (>300%), and Arcane's is <200%. Also, you need less haste rating for 1% than crit rating for 1%.

You probably should use Undead, no Dreanei hit bonus for the optimal gear set to match up with the other two. Also Humans get extra spirit, which will affect item values slightly.

#53 Korrigan

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:52 PM

You probably should use Undead, no Dreanei hit bonus for the optimal gear set to match up with the other two. Also Humans get extra spirit, which will affect item values slightly.

My set can be used as horde and as alliance mage. My experiments indicate that you would only have to swap out the wand.
And the human racial accounts for around 3 dps and does not include item changes.

#54 freaknastee

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 11:31 PM

It doesn't seem to me that [Band of Channeled Magic] , [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] , and [Unsullied Cuffs] are best in slot for that build. Although perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on crit instead of haste.


Yes I'm feeling the same way. Luckily my guild is melee heavy, so it's not as bad for me wanting the priest gear. However, I still hesitate to need the gear with spirit/haste because if it turns out incorrect I would have taken upgrades from healers or offset healing pieces.

#55 Kryptonik

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 04:24 PM

Yeah man, priest gear isnt too good for mages, some of it is okay because of the high spell power and crit but overall your best gear is going to have no spirit.
At least, thats what i know from my experiences.

#56 Celanara

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 05:03 PM

The problem is you guys are looking at the gear choices from a FFB perspective where spirit has next to no use, and crit is more important than haste. For arcane haste and spirit are much more important stats.

#57 Swindley

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 06:06 PM

The problem is you guys are looking at the gear choices from a FFB perspective where spirit has next to no use, and crit is more important than haste. For arcane haste and spirit are much more important stats.


Actually, based on experience and some comments here, it seems alot of people are doing ok even with hardly any spirit, with the proper replenishment and raidbuffs. I know I did ok in my Fire gear as arcane, instantly doing alot more dps while still managing ok on mana (mind you with 2 min evocation, more spirit might mean you'd be able to drop some evocationtime)

I also actually dropped the 3% hit from arcane focus, as I'm capped without it, and even without that 3% lower spellcost, I was ok in raids. I mostly used Molten armor, but sometimes I switched Mage armor. Had

So in other words, the perfect gear might not differ THAT much from Fire/arc and arcane. (Seeing as haste is already better for a fire/arc build than crit is)

Atm spirit seems a more "nice to have" stat for arcane, instead of allmost useless as the fire specs.

#58 Korrigan

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:35 AM

Just as a heads up for all the 18/53/0 alliance mages with heroic presence and heavy "loot competition": you might as well just take instead of , instead of and instead of .
These changes make you lose ~1 dps (6149 instead of 6150), but the items will be a HELL lot easier to get.

#59 Raencloud

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 03:55 PM

There's more competition for the hit items in my guild than the spirit ones; we run with 1 holy priest and about 7 other cloth casters (2-4 mages, 3 locks, sp in any given raid) - not to mention those evil shaman and boomkin that sometimes try to grab them. I've seen 0 Cincture's drop since I restarted playing ~6weeks or so, but the only Leash we had drop went to another mage after no one else wanted it (I wish I had taken it now). Dying Curse ... first 1 was this week, about 5 people wanted it (glad I'm arcane now and got my embrace). We haven't gotten any Unsullied Cuffs, but the only person I know of that wants them is our holy priest.

The problem is you guys are looking at the gear choices from a FFB perspective where spirit has next to no use, and crit is more important than haste. For arcane haste and spirit are much more important stats.



Spirit is hardly useful in arcane spec either. There are 2 major differences though. Haste is far more effective than crit and you don't need as much hit. If you were to ignore hit rating in Rawr, it would actually tell you a lot of the same pieces are best in slot for Ttw Fireball and FFB as they are arcane (ie Unsullied Cuffs, etc), but those fire builds need the extra hit. However, items that have large amounts of crit on them will drop off when you switch to arcane. The item I ran into was my engineering helm I was using as FFB until I could grab a Gothik's helm. According to Rawr, the engi helm was 3rd (I believe) in slot behind only Gothik's and 1 other. In Arcane, though, the helm is quite frankly terrible. I had previously been using Cowl of Sheet Lightning and when I made my engineering helm I DE'd it thinking I wouldn't need it any longer. However Rawr shows it as a significant upgrade to the engineering helm in arcane spec because it is itemized with haste as opposed to crit. In both cases, the spirit is highly irrelevant, but it is interesting to note that according to rawr intellect is worth more than crit rating in an arcane build.

#60 solbergb

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 05:58 PM

Yup. In a FFB or Arc/Fire build, crit > haste...depending on gear levels crit can be approximately equal to spellpower where haste is always significantly below. (decent, but not great)

In a deep arcane build, crit just doesn't do that much..your multiplier isn't that high and some of your talents softcap crit. I've not done the math but I'd figure at best crit on arcane is at best about as good as haste on arc/fire and probably worse (since haste would presumably make it easier to keep the AB debuff up). It might even be more like haste on a fire build in BC, where it is haste, not crit, that is near spellpower in dps improvement. That assumes enough mana, of course. There is always a bit of tension between haste and mana...crit improves dpm and dps, haste only increases dps.

This is going to significantly shift which items are best in class. Luckily there is a lot of haste and crit out there, meaning the first suit you put together is likely to have a fair amount of both, and there are options to finetune one way or the other depending on spec when you start having redundant pieces.




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