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#21 Lgs

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:03 PM

The question is whether or not they will fix this (or want to fix this) discrepancy with arcane's dps in time for us to use this in Ulduar. At the moment everything is so easy it's pointless anyway. But since it's pure speculation, we should just do as Manly is and focus on maximizing our DPS with what we have in the moment.

#22 manapaws

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:03 PM

They need to bring arcane inline with the other specs. If they could also add the 10% crit to arcane, that would be perfect and it would truly be a choice, based on preferance, not force.


Perhaps look at it via a raid damage vs personal damage pov? You'd do (say) 400 more dps as arcane, but all the other casters in the raid would do (say) 400 dps less, each. To each his own, but personally I'm more interested in faster zone clears than topping meters.

#23 thescreensavers

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:10 PM

My guild runs with 5 mages most of the time ( go grp 5!) so at this time I am the only mage trying Arcane to see how it fares tonight in naxx full clear.

Only thing I am unclear is

People say AB AB AB AM Abarr

Do you cast AM regardless of procs? or only when MBAM procs?

What is this thing about Evo and Icy vains?




PS:Great job Manly.

#24 Querk

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:17 PM

POM AB to start the stack seems to be the best bet.

Start the fight with a POM AB and attempt to use it as much as possible to get the first stack up. With a 2 min cooldown, you are looking at easily using it multiple times in a fight


POM AB for the third AB of the stack actually seems like a better bet to me.

The POM brings an extra 30% crit chance with it, so it would seem best to use it on the biggest AB to leverage the extra crit damage as much as possible.

Plus, assuming POM is probably macroed with AP and IV (you probably do want to use the POM during AP, for the same rationale - if you can force a crit, force the biggest one you can right?), it also works well to start the AP and IV on the third stack to give it the highest probability of overlapping the most damage in the cycle possible. (assuming here that the number of casts overlapped by the AP/IV will not always be constant due to uncertain MBAM procs, lag, pushback, etc.)

A third reason would be that assuming all that stuff is macroed together for a large burst, your tank may prefer that you burst on your third cast rather than your first. Granted the flip side here is that the cooldowns refresh 4ish seconds later - but that seems unlikely to be a determining factor whether or not you get the second use in.

#25 manapaws

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:21 PM

What is this thing about Evo and Icy vains?


Lucky you, you can tell one to keep improved scorch :P

Basically they're referring to popping Icy Veins, going nuts on DPS then using Evo at the very last second of Icy Veins before it disappears. This allows it to be a much shorter cast, thereby maximizing your dps time and minimizing your regen time.

#26 Parissa

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:23 PM

Thanks for putting this together and posting it manly! I've had this scribbled out in places myself, and it's really nice to be able to refer mage friends and guild-mates wanting to try out arcane after it was hugely successful for me last night. So again, thank you.

Things I've noticed
1) With the standard ABx3, AM clip, ABar - I'm not running out of mana. On Patchwerk I got an innervate instead of evocating and that along with the two mana gems used in cooldown stacking was enough to get me through that fight more than fine. Definitely need to glyph molten armor. I used molten armor with glyphed mage armor that fight.

2) Clipping is problematic with variant lag we're seeing on instance servers

3) I'm able to equal my "favorable RNG" frostfire damage. I mucked up the rotation, but I still pulled 5600 dps on patchwerk while being unlucky with missile barrage procs and not even bothing to clip my arcane missiles. Frostfire honestly puts you in a coma - need to be much more attentive with arcane.

4) Sinless is right about arcane. It's actually simple - just play around with it and get used to trying to clip missiles.

5) Being reckless with blizzard is really fun - On Grand Widow I popped the "ap+icy veins+mana gem" macro and then bombed everything with blizzard - ended up with over 7500 dps.

Again, thanks to Manly for the work putting this together and all of the other contributors to the site and post here - very helpful and good stuff

Edit: Anyone else laughing about how our "rotation" is 1, 1, 1, 2....3? I wonder where else I use that rotation....hrm....

#27 nathanbp

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:32 PM

My guild runs with 5 mages most of the time ( go grp 5!) so at this time I am the only mage trying Arcane to see how it fares tonight in naxx full clear.

Only thing I am unclear is

People say AB AB AB AM Abarr

Do you cast AM regardless of procs? or only when MBAM procs?

What is this thing about Evo and Icy vains?




PS:Great job Manly.


The suggested cycle of AB AB AB AM Abarr is casting AM regardless of procs to get the 60% increased damage from the AB debuff for both AM and ABarr. This is better DPS and less Mana per second (according to Rawr) than using AM only on MBAM procs.

If you use Evo at the very end of Icy Veins/Heroism you get the haste benefit for the entire channel.

Is there any easy way to tell how much you are clipping AM and if you got the combo off successfully? Ideally there'd be a mod that would tell you after every AM-ABarr how you did. It's fairly easy to tell if you managed the combo from Scrolling Combat Text, but somewhat harder in the heat of battle to tell how many missiles you got off.

The question I'd most like to hear discussion on is what rotation(s) to use in low mana situations while waiting for Evocation/Mana Gem to come up. Looking at Rawr it seems like ABx2 AM (always) ABarr is a good choice (drop the 3rd AB from the "standard" rotation). Thoughts?

(And yes, thanks Manly for putting this together.)

Edit, @Parissa: I was having mana problems last night as arcane in Naxx-25 on the longer fights, although you have somewhat better gear than me. I also have 0/3 Student of the Mind, 2/3 Arcane Meditation, where as you have 3/3 for both, so I should probably respec. So much for instant invis.

#28 DaDeigo

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:40 PM

Does anyone have any answer's to these questions? Sorry for the repeat post i just find these questions valid.

1. Is it really that beneficial to be using mage armour glyphed full time over molten glyphed and swaping when needing to.

2. Can i avoid mana issues with glyphing mana gem plus my set bonus from teir gear. Is it worth it even?

3. I went oom a few times in the start but without managing my mana properly but in time i found it to be a non issue i had just become a lazy spammer for FFB. Do you guys have any key insight?

4. How are people dealing with AM mb proc's? I found even with a good rig and a good video card that it was a pain to time and i did miss the timing occasionally, and yes i do use quartz. Sometimes i blew my wad too early and sometimes i was a second too late.

#29 bombdigie

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:41 PM

I've found these numbers to be quite effective in the raid environment in determining gear optimization (These numbers are after being hit capped):

1 Spell Power = 1 Spell Power
1 Haste = .8 Spell Power
1 Crit = .57 Spell Power
1 Int = .4 Spell Power
1 Mana/5 = .2 Spell Power
1 Spirit = .15 Spell Power

A strategy I've thought up, but not tested (until later tonight) is to waste all your mana right away at the start of the fight, and then evocate/gem to 100%.

Begin with an ABarr, then Use images and arcane power, pom AB. After 18 seconds of Arcane Power use Icy Veins, after 5 seconds of Icy Veins use a haste potion. At .5-1 second remaining on your haste potion and icy veins evocate for 4.25-4.5 seconds. Depending on the state of your mana use a mana gem after your evocate has finished and then start your ABx3>AM>Abarr Rotation.

You never want to go higher than 797 haste, with IV + Hero + Trinket Proc or Haste Potion your casts and channels become 1 second, any more haste and it goes below the 1 second global cooldown.

Under the effects of IV and/or Heroism I do not recommend using Abarr, after your AM channel begin your AB cycle again.

#30 jdpowers19

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:41 PM

The scorch debuff does provide a lot of raid dps that Arcane cannot provide, and is part of what is considered when trying to balance one spec to the other. If Arcane did the same dps as Fire/FFB but couldnt provide that debuff, why would anyone spec it? It HAS to do more dps in order to be worthwhile since it brings less raid utility.

On that note, I think people who are calling for or anticipating arcane nerfs are being very premature. I'm sure many of you remember when Frost was going to be an important raiding spec because of the mana regen too, and we all know how that turned out. The changes to Arcane are exciting, and having 3 viable raid specs (Arcane Fire FFB) is a breath of fresh air, but these changes have been live just about 24 hours now; I think we can give it just a little more time before we decide that arcane is out of control.

#31 Lemming

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:42 PM

Does anyone know if the models in RAWR that support arcane combos are counting the combo as 4AM ticks + Abar or 5AM ticks + Abar? Clipping the last missile completely off is easy to do - but at what cost? Timing the Abar to get all 5 ticks and still get the bonus is the harder part. It would be nice if there was an option for this in RAWR, maybe with a variable that you could adjust to account for misses (either clipping before the 5th tick, or missing it and not getting the buff).

#32 jak3676

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:43 PM

"Remember to use Abar before the 5th tick of AM."

Does this mean to cast Abar before the 5th missle of AM is cast or in the time after it is cast, but before it lands? Between this thread and the "upcoming mage changes for 3.08" I've seen it discussed both ways.

#33 bombdigie

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:44 PM

When matching gems:

Red = +19 spell power
Yellow = +9 spell power, +8 haste
Blue = +9 spell power, +8 spirit

Meta = +21 crit, 3% crit bonus

#34 Lgs

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:49 PM

I cast immediately after the 4th missile. It's easy to time (at least without MB) and works 100% of the time.

So ABx3 -> AM 1,2,3,4 -> ABarr immediately after 4th missile.

#35 DaDeigo

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:51 PM

When matching gems:

Red = +19 spell power
Yellow = +9 spell power, +8 haste
Blue = +9 spell power, +8 spirit

Meta = +25 spell power, +2% int


Spell power i believe is a huge boost to arcane where other areas fall short. I am unsure how much i feel haste and crit really help in comparison.

As for the meta i would only use:
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
+21 Critical Strike Rating and 3% Increased Critical Damage

I do not like being forced to use two blue gems for it but i feel it is worth it.

#36 Querk

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:57 PM

Does anyone have any answer's to these questions? Sorry for the repeat post i just find these questions valid.

1. Is it really that beneficial to be using mage armour glyphed full time over molten glyphed and swaping when needing to.

2. Can i avoid mana issues with glyphing mana gem plus my set bonus from teir gear. Is it worth it even?

3. I went oom a few times in the start but without managing my mana properly but in time i found it to be a non issue i had just become a lazy spammer for FFB. Do you guys have any key insight?

4. How are people dealing with AM mb proc's? I found even with a good rig and a good video card that it was a pain to time and i did miss the timing occasionally, and yes i do use quartz. Sometimes i blew my wad too early and sometimes i was a second too late.


1 - yes, if you're going oom without it; no if not. Your own post says mana's a non-issue, so...

2 - No - glyphing mana gem won't help that much and is "not recommended". Plus, your own post says mana's a non-issue, so...

3 - Key insight: don't be a lazy spammer for FFB? Not sure what it is you really want to hear.

4 - I'm definitely needing practice on the timing.

#37 nathanbp

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:57 PM

When matching gems:

Red = +19 spell power
Yellow = +9 spell power, +8 haste
Blue = +9 spell power, +8 spirit

Meta = +25 spell power, +2% int


Care to show some numbers or reasoning? Rawr shows as ~3 times more dps than the 2% int meta. Also, the cut doesn't exist, or possibly was just added in 3.0.8 as a drop somewhere. I'd say is the next best (as stam does nothing for dps).

If you're having mana problems (although I seem to be the only one having mana problems in this spec), the is probably a better orange gem.

#38 Lemming

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:59 PM

Does anyone know if the models in RAWR that support arcane combos are counting the combo as 4AM ticks + Abar or 5AM ticks + Abar? Clipping the last missile completely off is easy to do - but at what cost? Timing the Abar to get all 5 ticks and still get the bonus is the harder part. It would be nice if there was an option for this in RAWR, maybe with a variable that you could adjust to account for misses (either clipping before the 5th tick, or missing it and not getting the buff).


Ok wow, nevermind on that last part - there is a combo reliability portion in RAWR. I must be blind.

But still, do combos allow for 4 or 5 AM ticks - I'm assuming 5, and that if the combo "failed" that the Abar gets no benefit. Anyone else interested in seeing the 100% 4ticks only dps cycles to compare?

#39 Roywyn

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:15 PM

Student of the mind stuff.

As long as the current type of itemisation continues, getting spirit on gear is usually a very bad idea.
Meaning that gear is "int/spi/dmg + 2 out of haste/hit/crit/spi(/mp5)", and getting spirit on gear means losing a DPS stat.

Next up, Student of the Mind is a terrible talent in terms of power. Sure, it's a good idea.
But it's 0.1% DPS/point, which is really bad. 3/3 SotM is worse than 1/3 Incineration, and Incineration is rather weak to begin with.

With pushback set to 0,07 in Rawr and no concentration aura whatsoever each point in Arcane Stability is worth about 400-600dps.

I'd guess you wrote "0.07" instead of "0,07" in Rawr or so?
With 0.1 interrupts per second (i.e. one each 10s), I get around 0.2% DPS/point.
To get your 500 DPS numbers, I'd need to add 7 interrupts per second (instead of 0.07).
At 0.1 interrupts per second, it's twice as good as SotM, but still only half as good as any other DPS talent.

What spell to use PoM on?

That depends on whether it is buggy or not.

Someone should test this: Cast AB-(PoM-AB).
Make sure (PoM-AB) is macroed, and spamcast it at the end of the first cast.
Does the second AB cost +200%, get +20% damage and give you the 2nd stack of the AB debuff?
If it does, it's working correctly, and you can PoM your 3rd AB to get the highest gain from your 30% crit buff, i.e. AB-AB-(PoM-AB)-AM-ABar.


If you're Scorch specced, a PoM-FB (or PoM-Pyro) might be worth it.
FB means another chance to proc MBAM, and Torment/Impact may keep the damage competitive with Pyroblast.

Another idea might be AB*3-AM-(PoM-AB)-(ABar), if you can properly shatter your PoM-AB for +60% damage.
Depending on how things actually work (there was an issue with not getting a new AB damage debuff), you should add an ABar at the end of it.


Those are just the options laid out. First they need to be test to find out what king of buggy stuff happens.
They need to be calculated to find out which one offers the highest damage increase.

They need to bring Arcane in Line with the other specs. If they could also add the 10% crit to arcane, that would be perfect and it would truly be a choice, based on preferance, not force.

You could always go 51/18/0+2 for Scorch. Or wait whether Arcane Shatters get fixed.
One could also argue that Arcane is then the DPS spec and Fire/Frost are the debuff specs.
There's also the issue that most fights are 2-3-minute-zergs that allow you to completely ignore mana.

And one another note - there is always scaling to consider.
From toying around with Rawr, Arcane scales a bit worse than Fire with +Spell Power.
Haste scaling is comparable, and Arcane scales with Intellect roughly like Fire with Crit and vice-versa.

That means the better our future gear is budgeted, the more will it favour fire for scaling.
It's too early to predict things, but it is something you all should keep in mind.

Meta = +25 spell power, +2% int

Don't post misinformation.
Nothing even remotely competes with a 3% crit meta, and hats without a meta gem are useless as well.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#40 DaDeigo

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:15 PM

1 - yes, if you're going oom without it; no if not. Your own post says mana's a non-issue, so...

2 - No - glyphing mana gem won't help that much and is "not recommended". Plus, your own post says mana's a non-issue, so...

3 - Key insight: don't be a lazy spammer for FFB? Not sure what it is you really want to hear.

4 - I'm definitely needing practice on the timing.



1. I guess i was pretty unclear. I was not going oom with a glyphed mage armor, but of course i was popping mana gems and using timely evocates. I would like to know if my gear could handle the other route without pissing off my RL saying i need to port out to reglyph.

2. I saw that it was not recommended but i was curious if every scenario was considered. ( ie t7 set bonuses)

3. I was curious about certain scenario rotations. Is it more beneficial to not use am with ap iv. Some people state to not use am unless mb had procced. Currently i use IV-AP-AB*3-POM-AB-AM(clipped)-Abr->AB*3-POM-AB-AM(clipped)-Abr.....(Glyphed ap fades)->speed pot->Evocate->AB*3-AM(clipped)-Abr..till ap is back up.




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