Jump to content


Photo

The Arcane thread


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3728 replies to this topic

#41 nathanbp

nathanbp

    Great Tiger

  •  Patrons
  • 991 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:26 PM

As long as the current type of itemisation continues, getting spirit on gear is usually a very bad idea.
Meaning that gear is "int/spi/dmg + 2 out of haste/hit/crit/spi(/mp5)", and getting spirit on gear means losing a DPS stat.

Next up, Student of the Mind is a terrible talent in terms of power. Sure, it's a good idea.
But it's 0.1% DPS/point, which is really bad. 3/3 SotM is worse than 1/3 Incineration, and Incineration is rather weak to begin with.


On itemization: In some slots (mostly bracers and boots), the best itemized item w/o spirit has hit which arcane doesn't need and there's an ilvl 226 piece with spirit. These pieces with spirit seem to be best in slot for arcane ( and .

Is there a better talent that actually increases dps than SotM? To me, it seems the best of a bad lot unless you want to start sticking points in frost (also a possibility, but with no increase on single target boss dps unless I'm missing something).

#42 marsui

marsui

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 42 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:37 PM

I see several mentions of clipping AM with ABar to get the +60% dmg benefit, however is the intention to clip AM so that you get 4/5 missles ~or~ with practice, be able to clip AM and still have all 5 missles land in addition to getting the +60% dmg on ABar?

#43 DaDeigo

DaDeigo

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:03 PM

4/5. You clip the last missle and watch for 17k crits.

#44 Thegoodman

Thegoodman

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 206 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:07 PM

Is there a better talent that actually increases dps than SotM? To me, it seems the best of a bad lot unless you want to start sticking points in frost (also a possibility, but with no increase on single target boss dps unless I'm missing something).


I am not sure which spec you are using that gives you free points to throw away, but this spec (57/3/11) is strapped and could really use a few more points.

The decision is between pushback, spell hit, and threat.

Pushback: From what I have read today, spell pushback has been an issue with Arcane for people w/o any points in Arcane Stability. If dps, rotation, and mana management are dependent upon carefully timed abilities; spell pushback can really mess up your mojo and knock you out of a good rhythm.

Spell Hit: Even though 6% hit from talents is nice, it is hardly necessary. Unless you have a bag full of 3 pieces of gear for each slot and can create an ultimate set of gear with the perfect amount of spell hit; you probably have nearly 10% spell hit. I have 10.45% now and have made no great effort to get more (except for last night, rare situation with no Spriest or Boomkin). That being said, I would respec a point or even 2 for more Arcane Focus, but given my current set of gear it isn't necessary. Also, the 2% mana cost reduction is cool but not life changing.

Threat: If a spec that has karate explosion crits like FFB doesn't pull threat with 10% threat reduction, I cannot image a more steady dps spec like Arcane pulling with 20% threat reduction. I have read some of you have to cast Invis if you blow your CD's right away, I am fine with this.

So your options are limited as to their usefulness, but spell push back is the winner in my particular case.

#45 Turwok

Turwok

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:18 PM

assuming you are hit capped, so dont need Precision talent:
Icy Veins is a very good talent to aid arcane, but is it worth wasting 10 points in frost tree?? or it would be better to get Improved Scorch??

In another words, how is compared: 20sec of 20% reduced cast time in 2min cycles, versus 10% increased critical chance always up

-- Edited posts due to some misunderstandings. --

#46 Bobbled

Bobbled

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:20 PM

Does anyone have the complete list of slowing affects that trigger TtW?

These are the ones I've seen mentioned so far:

Class|Skill
Mage|Slow
Warrior|Thunderclap
Paladin|Judgement of the Just
Death Knight|Frost Fever
Druid|Infected Wounds


#47 Jariel

Jariel

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:20 PM

I see several mentions of clipping AM with ABar to get the +60% dmg benefit, however is the intention to clip AM so that you get 4/5 missles ~or~ with practice, be able to clip AM and still have all 5 missles land in addition to getting the +60% dmg on ABar?



Perfect timing after the 5th missile (more like almost at the exact time the 5th is cast) is the best case scenario ... if you are missing the shatter frequently, or are just inconsistant with results then clipping after the 4th will produce results that are more reliable.

#48 nathanbp

nathanbp

    Great Tiger

  •  Patrons
  • 991 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:22 PM

I am not sure which spec you are using that gives you free points to throw away, but this spec (57/3/11) is strapped and could really use a few more points.

The decision is between pushback, spell hit, and threat.

Pushback: From what I have read today, spell pushback has been an issue with Arcane for people w/o any points in Arcane Stability. If dps, rotation, and mana management are dependent upon carefully timed abilities; spell pushback can really mess up your mojo and knock you out of a good rhythm.

Spell Hit: Even though 6% hit from talents is nice, it is hardly necessary. Unless you have a bag full of 3 pieces of gear for each slot and can create an ultimate set of gear with the perfect amount of spell hit; you probably have nearly 10% spell hit. I have 10.45% now and have made no great effort to get more (except for last night, rare situation with no Spriest or Boomkin). That being said, I would respec a point or even 2 for more Arcane Focus, but given my current set of gear it isn't necessary. Also, the 2% mana cost reduction is cool but not life changing.

Threat: If a spec that has karate explosion crits like FFB doesn't pull threat with 10% threat reduction, I cannot image a more steady dps spec like Arcane pulling with 20% threat reduction. I have read some of you have to cast Invis if you blow your CD's right away, I am fine with this.

So your options are limited as to their usefulness, but spell push back is the winner in my particular case.


Ah. Here is the spec I'm considering 54/3/11+3. The point in Magic Attunement can go somewhere else in upper (lower?) arcane if you like. I haven't found pushback to be a big problem with arcane (did all of Naxx-25 & Malygos yesterday). So from that perspective, my question is where should the last 4 points go? There are a bunch of choices in the arcane tree, and also the possibility of putting some points in frost for extra blizzard damage. Right now I'm leaning towards 2/2 Magic Attunement and the rest in pushback prevention or extra spirit maybe? 2/3 Prismatic Cloak doesn't seem so hot.

The spell hit talents both reduce mana cost, which seems worthwhile.

On another note, anyone know if full resists any more likely now than they were in BC? I'm curious as to Manly's reasoning for 2/2 Magic Adsorption?

#49 DaDeigo

DaDeigo

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:31 PM

I find IV crucial to minimize evocate downtime and the dps increase is ok too.

#50 Jariel

Jariel

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:35 PM

assuming you are hit capped, so dont need Precision talent:
Icy Veins is a dumbass talent to arcane, but is it worth wasting 10 points in frost tree?? or it would be better to get Improved Scorch??


If taking Precision means I can gear or gem Spell Power instead of Hit ... that is a win scenario in my opinion.

Not sure what you were meaning regarding Icy Veins ... but if you read the beginning of the thread regarding Evocation practices, you will see a clear importance for taking Icy Veins.

Scorch?? I would sooner spec FFB then waste time throwing scorch as arcane personally. Waste of too many Arcane dps points to get Imp Scorch.

#51 bombdigie

bombdigie

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 67 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:48 PM

25 spell power +2% int (27 int)

27 int =

405 mana
.162% crit = 7.44 crit rating
4 spell power
243 mana per evocate = 2 mana/5
5 mana/5 from replenishment

Totals:

29 spell power
7.44 crit rating
7 mana/5
405 base mana

vs.

21 crit rating
3% crit damage
require 2 blue gems

If you are to replace 2 red gems for 2 blue gems, thats -20 spell power.
If you are to replace 2 yellow gems(orange) for 2 blue gems, thats -16 haste or -16 intellect.
Its a non-issue I suppose if you have blue gem slots in your gear, but I don't. Cloak from Sarth and Neck for Maly Quest are the only items I can think of that would have a blue gem slot that you would actually wear.

I'm getting a 1% dps increase for the crit meta vs. 825 mana over a 5 minute fight.

It is the best but I still prefer the 25 power and 2% int.

Does anyone have the complete list of slowing affects that trigger TtW?

These are the ones I've seen mentioned so far:

Class|Skill
Mage|Slow
Warrior|Thunderclap
Paladin|Judgement of the Just
Death Knight|Frost Fever
Druid|Infected Wounds



Frostfirebolt Dot works.

#52 Vallren

Vallren

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 20 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:57 PM

I have been following this thread and the thread it deviated from (Upcoming Mage Changes) and I have seen no mention of this.

In regards to Arcane Potency, has anyone noticed that if you attain Clearcasting upon the channel of Arcane Missles, each missle gains the 30% crit buff IN ADDITION to the Arcane Barrage? (Basically a Potency Combo if you will) It is such a difficult event to reliably reproduce but during my guild's 10 man it seemed that every time Clearcasting went off UPON CASTING the spell (Has to be upon casting it seems), most (if not all) of the missles would crit in addition to the Arcane Barrage.

In addition, having clearcasting proc right before Arcane Missles doesn't seem to grant the crit bonus to missles. It sounds like the Channel portion of the spell consumes the buffs but is not applied to the missles, and conversly the missles do not consume the buff but they gain the crit bonus.

On a final note, I left the Missles run their course a few times without Barraging and the 5th missle correctly removes Potency.

Can anyone else clarify if this is happening or am I going insane?
Setting things on fire since Open Beta

#53 Celani

Celani

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:57 PM

Frostfirebolt Dot works.


Did you test this on an actual boss? The combat dummies aren't immune to the snare, but raid bosses may be.

#54 Linyu

Linyu

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:02 PM

what are "Gloves" when spoken about stacking bloodlust/evo /" Gloves"

#55 Carnivean

Carnivean

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 100 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:05 PM

what are "Gloves" when spoken about stacking bloodlust/evo /" Gloves"


Hyperspeed Accelerators, Engineering only Enchant for Gloves.

#56 epoh

epoh

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 119 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:06 PM

Did you test this on an actual boss? The combat dummies aren't immune to the snare, but raid bosses may be.



Again - The only mage skill that triggers TtW on BOSSES is Slow. Frostbolt and Frostfirebolt and a few others work on other mobs, but boss dmg is the main topic of disccussion.

#57 Celani

Celani

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:07 PM

but boss dmg is the main topic of disccussion.


This is what I meant. Discussion of a debuff list should be limited to what works on bosses only.

#58 Linyu

Linyu

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:17 PM

so is stacking IV + popping haste pot when IV gets to 15 seconds then evoing when both hit 1 second the best possible time for evo?

#59 Mathies

Mathies

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:23 PM

Scorch?? I would sooner spec FFB then waste time throwing scorch as arcane personally. Waste of too many Arcane dps points to get Imp Scorch.


Rawr, in the newly-added Arcane+Scorch model, places Arcane+Scorch over Frostfire, but (of course) under Arcane+IcyVeins. At least, in my gear set, numbers being respectively:

Frostfire(0/53/18): 5070.73
Arcane+Scorch(53/18/0): 5245.73
Arcane+IcyVeins(57/3/11): 5519.62

Your mileage will vary with your gear set, of course =)

#60 Astrylian

Astrylian

    Rawr

  • Members
  • 3,604 posts

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:34 PM

I also noticed, that there are actually two talent spec windows for the mage module which differ vastly in their dps and I might have looked at one and then at the other after removing the talent points. The difference shown is about 2k dps.


I can explain that... Rawr provides a universal Talent Specs chart that shows up for all models by default. The 2nd one is a custom chart that Rawr.Mage provides. Rawr.Mage has some optimizations in it, that it only bothers trying cycles that are potentially useful to your current spec, when comparing different things. ie, if you're deep fire, it's not going to bother trying frostbolt spam, to save cpu time. The built-in Talent Specs chart doesn't know about that, so it's basically trying your current cycle in every spec. The one Rawr.Mage provides knows what's going on, and specifically finds the best cycles for each spec. So use the bottom one.

Yes, we know that's annoying, and confusing, and we're working on a fix (hiding the built-in one if the model provides one).
Rawr!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users