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Finalizing the Prot Warrior design


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#21 Juno

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 11:45 AM

Yep, definitely agree on the revenge part when not getting hit. And it can very easily be unsynched due to sword and board procs, what could be done however, is a similar change to what DK's get.

* Sudden Doom – this talent now procs a Death Coil rather than requiring an additional button click. It works similarly to shamans’ Lightning Overload.

I realize Blizz seem to want to have reactive abilities rather than rotations but this on sword and board would make it a bit easier, or make the proc of sword and board make a GCD-free shield slam like concussive blow. Also do something about heroic strike, I have no idea what, but I'm getting a tad tired of spamming the hell out of that button. I'd love for devastate to be a bit more useful beyond stacking up sunders and filling gaps in cd's aswell.
An activated spell damage reduction on Imp Spell reflect would be amazing. I just hope they don't do anything beyond that cause spell reflect along with Shockwave are my most favorite spells in WoW. I spell reflect absolutely everything, or try to, cause it's so damn fun. Everything from 6k frostfire bolts in PvP to 8k icy touches from DK's in Naxx. Imp spell reflect is pretty damn fun aswell.

#22 LittleHamster

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 01:01 PM

With the promised dual spec, I would imagine the need to do offtank dps in prot spec is over. Looking forward, the only issue with dps is when we are actually tanking something. And from multiple accounts, we are doing fine in that department.

#23 Jayde

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 01:08 PM

With the promised dual spec, I would imagine the need to do offtank dps in prot spec is over. Looking forward, the only issue with dps is when we are actually tanking something. And from multiple accounts, we are doing fine in that department.


I think what is being referred to is more Gruul/Patchwerk/Kel'thuzad type encounters when multiple tanks are required but the OT may not be getting hit on a regular basis enough to keep Revenge up a resonable amount of time. Many fights require 2 tanks, and Warriors are probably the worst at the bunch at actually being useful OTs.

For this, what could be suggested is changing Vigilance to additionally also allow the use of Revenge if the target of your Vigilance is hit. Or, more simply, make Revenge additionally trigger any time anyone in your group/raid is hit and lower the cooldown.

Makes some kind of logical sense to me, anyway. Unrelenting Assault builds have a similar situation in terms of Revenge usage and don't do 'insane' DPS, so this doesn't seem like it would be too out of line.

#24 mistersix

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:04 PM

Revenge would be lit up like Christmas if it moved to anyone getting hit. They could maybe remove puncture for a taste for blood like ability that allowed for revenges. I'm not sure what a good condition would be but if it's really the OT situation we're worried about then maybe connect it to taking damage (prolly to op and would still be lit up like christmas) or maybe even connect to our sunders/devastates.

#25 Trinich

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:19 PM

For this, what could be suggested is changing Vigilance to additionally also allow the use of Revenge if the target of your Vigilance is hit. Or, more simply, make Revenge additionally trigger any time anyone in your group/raid is hit and lower the cooldown.


I really like the idea of revenge popping from Vig, but if that seems to OP, another idea would be some sort of rage generation via the damage taken by the Vig target. I think that if it just gave revenge back, you'd be autoswinging, Revening, hoping for a SnB proc, and then Revenging again. At some point you'd have enough rage to pop SS without runnin out of rage to pop the Rev. If Vigilance gave you a small stream of rage to work with, along with your white damage, could possibly give you more flexibility in a rotation.

Thinking about it, the Vigilance giving rage would be a great buff to prot pvp, and having it give free revenges would hear the world QQ.

Also, the mentioning of the SnB proc being an autocast SS would be fantastic.

I love tanking with the warrior. Its good times, and I feel its far and away better than it was, even if people don't like the dumbing down of it. Its still very fun.

#26 Jayde

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:57 PM

Revenge would be lit up like Christmas if it moved to anyone getting hit. They could maybe remove puncture for a taste for blood like ability that allowed for revenges. I'm not sure what a good condition would be but if it's really the OT situation we're worried about then maybe connect it to taking damage (prolly to op and would still be lit up like christmas) or maybe even connect to our sunders/devastates.


If it triggered from group members being hit, it would be lit up in groups/raids and limited by its cooldown instead of luck. I don't see how this would be a problem at all.

Lowering the cooldown to 3 seconds would make it fit properly into SnB rotations and allow a higher consistancy to our TPS numbers while also raising our DPS a bit. In fact, getting the cooldown down to 3s would be my ideal change in almost all ways, because it simplifies rotations and you know that if SnB procs, you can -always- follow Shield Slam with Revenge.

A 5s cooldown on Revenge as it is now is actually very unintuitive and makes cooldown/hotbar watching way too large of a component of tanking than I would like it to be. The fact that it easily gets desynced off our GCD cycle by 0.5s does not fit well with the flow of SnB.

SnB is cool and adds some more fun to the tanking cycle, but I trying to weave different Revenge offsets into it basically means there are 3 distinct full 4-skill cycles that you have to shift around based on when SnB procs in relationship to the Revenge cooldown timer. It also means that if you're unlucky you can end up in the 'worst' of the 4 cycles, which is SS -> Dev -> Dev -> Rev for a few cycles depending on SnB procs, which makes it not worth it to try to sub in SW/CB in the last cycle slot due to the high threat provided by Revenge. (In SS -> Dev -> Rev -> Dev or SS -> Rev -> Dev -> Dev cycles this is optimal.)

Honestly, I feel that we have enough things to 'watch' in terms of 4-5 cooldowns + SnB procs + swing timer for HS + all the things that go into tanking + possibly keeping up Thunder Clap/Demo Shout that I really wouldn't be very happy with another 'proc' component like Taste for Blood.

#27 Tyvi

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:20 PM

For this, what could be suggested is changing Vigilance to additionally also allow the use of Revenge if the target of your Vigilance is hit. Or, more simply, make Revenge additionally trigger any time anyone in your group/raid is hit and lower the cooldown.


That could work because it helps with the Prot DPS issue (in DPS gear, tho it would make Prot DPS too high aggro) and when you are OTing. But for that Vigilance should not be needed to be on the MT because why would a MT be fine with a 10% threat reduction when he can get the same OT competence from a DK or Druid without lowering the raid's threat ceiling?

#28 Wyuli

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 08:45 AM

I echo a lot of the sentiments on Spell Reflection. In TBC, the skill rarely took the middle ground between useless (against, say, trash mobs in Karazhan) and critical to the fight's success (Reliquary of Souls phase 2). As a result, the button was either something to ignore completely or to watch carefully and plan your rage consumption around using. I take Blizzard at their (implied) word that they won't add in more gimmick fights that require spell reflection in order to succeed, given that it is an ability unique to one class, but there is certainly room, as Liar mentioned, for making it a more consistently useful ability outside of 5-mans.

My only concern with giving Spell Reflection (or Imp. Spell Reflection) a magic damage reduction component is that the damage reduction aspect will quickly take center stage and we'll be back to the problem presented by the old Shield Block mechanic where pressing the button becomes a chore instead of a choice in many situations.

Since we are reflecting on our current state and compiling disparate comments into a concentrated thread, would it be worthwhile (at the risk of sounding like I dream of taking Spell Reflection to bed with me) to compile a list of places in WotLK where the ability is exceptionally useful and/or quirky? So far in this thread we know that it's useful against the Voidwalker boss in Violet Hold (Zuramat the Obliterator?), Dalronn the Controller in Utgarde Keep, and, supposedly, against Death Knight trash mobs in Naxx ('m assuming they are the Death Knight Cavaliers). I'm sure most of us by now have had the pleasure of reflecting an Ahn'kahar Spell Flinger's Shadow Blast, and Improved Spell Reflect is still somewhat useful on phase 2 Malygos.

#29 Mode

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 10:35 AM

Since we are reflecting on our current state and compiling disparate comments into a concentrated thread, would it be worthwhile (at the risk of sounding like I dream of taking Spell Reflection to bed with me) to compile a list of places in WotLK where the ability is exceptionally useful and/or quirky?

Yeah, I think it's worth listing the handful of mobs spell reflect actually works on. Split it off into a new thread so it's easier for people to find. Disarm is our other defensive cooldown that typically doesn't work, so it'd be worth listing bosses/raid trash/ disarm works on too while you're at it.

#30 Durabull

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:01 AM

Warriors seemed to have had vast improvements when the talents for Wrath first came out in BC. Insane threat increase, dps increase as prot (i even leveled up as prot because my gear for it was way better) and overall alot of buffs, things that i wanted to see implemented, like damage shield, warbringer, critical blocking, shield block not being of such huge importance. But in reality, now that everyone in my guild is getting to that t7.5 gear level, i see my dps pushing my threat, and even on fights where i do nothing but stand there and do perfect rotations, i still can't put out enough. 5-6k TPS no longer suffices, and for some fights i can't put on my threat gear without risking taking spike damage. Sure, with my full SBV/Expertise/Hit set, using my block value + expertise/haste trinket, i can push 7-9k TPS, and even break 10k with bloodlust up. However, using that gear is not always viable, especially not on progression fights, and the problem is, on progression fights, DPS is needed the most, and thus THREAT is needed the most to allow dps the ceiling they need to pump that dps.

So yes, we got buffed, but so did everyone else, and now we are basically back where we were at the end of BC: Rage starved on some fights, cant burn through it fast enough on others. Having tons of fights where situational awareness is key, yet being situationally aware 100% of the time detracts from your rotation/sword and board minigame of keeping shield slam on cooldown.

Also, it sucks that we are pigeonholed into using only fast 1hers b/c of heroic strike. As of right now, Heroic strike is such a HUGE part of any tanks threat/dps rotation, that fights where we are rage starved nerf our threat into oblivion.

Warriors need to have the living crap kicked out of them to push good threat. This is not the case for any other tank in the game.

Blizzard said they were going to buff auto attack dmg to increase rage gen, the problem is, Heroic Strike is such a huge part of any tanks threat, that the auto attack becomes completely void. Heroic Strike should multiply the ENTIRE HIT by a threat multiplier, instead of just the HS added dmg. Or, maybe it would be possible to normalize it so that the threat effect was the same overall ? im not sure how this would be done, just throwing it out there.

#31 Rustik

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:58 PM

1) Devastate scales poorly. Liar mentioned it early on. The biggest problem I see with Devastate is damn near half of it's damage comes from the +505 damage due to sunders. Couldn't they change it to be an additional x% weapon damage per sunder?

2) Rend. I know, I know. Rend has been the laughingstock of all abilities in game for the better part of 4 years. But recently it's been buffed. With the Broken Promise, and full raid buffs, I've seen it tick for 650ish. Problem is, I'm hoping for a last laugh, and rend isn't normalized. I thought all instants were supposed to be normalized? I've gotten used to using it now, and would rather my threat/damage didn't go DOWN because I picked up a weapon 13 ilevels higher.

3) Heroic Strike: I now have two hotbars that are exactly the same except for one thing: one hotbar has Heroic strike macroed into SS, Revenge, and Devastate. The other one does not. I believe someone above mentioned "face-rolling?" Yes. Especially with my Broken Promise, and the glyph of revenge, I find many a situation where the macroed hotbar is up. And I do, since I ran out of hotkeys and have to actually click on HS otherwise. (Admittedly, some hotkey shuffling might be in order.) I agree with everything above, this just seems like a bad mechanic. (Completely ignoring all the QQ about HS allowing fury warriors to ignore the DW penalty).

Not really sure what they can do with it, to help make things better. 50 rage ability that buffs our next three specials? That'd be a nice rage dump, but then Glyph of revenge would need to be changed. Would probably cause other problems I can't think of right now, too.

4) Revenge: I don't have too many problems with revenge's cooldown. Yeah the .5 second gap can be a pain, but it's not too hard to work around. On a fight where I can watch the GBC that closely, my latency is low enough waiting .5 seconds isn't much worse than a tank with high latency. On a fight where I'm moving a lot, I miss it anyway. Maybe I just suck at moving fights.

5) New weapon: Only 2 of our abilities, (one which takes away our white swing) scale off of weapon damage. We get a new weapon, and it doesn't really do much for our TPS. A DPS gets a new weapon and they tend to gain quite a bit from it. Maybe put a weapon DPS component in revenge, and/or concussion blow? Of course, we use such fast weapons for the HS, that might not really work either. This might not even be something worth getting concerned about. We get strength on gear now, so the weapon isn't as important as it used to be.

6) Rage: I tend to have plenty of rage, though as mentioned above, I have a Broken Promise, which is slooow. Our MT does have a Last Laugh though, and he stacks avoidance up the wazzoo (Threat problems anyone?). Now I haven't really got a problem with trading dps/threat for survivability, but it does get pretty silly when you lose 30+% of your threat for what, an additional 10% avoidance? Maybe? I like the idea of making rage only outgoing white swings, but then you have to consider what that would do to DPS warriors. Granted, I don't know much about DPS warrioring. Does rage even concern them as is?

I'm also thinking that maybe they should tone down the parrying of bosses. Even if we get a bunch of rage for parrying/dodging, it's still silly how much expertise we need to remove parries, which are a huge TPS/DPS decrease. We, the tanks, need to spend HOW MANY points to hit 100% of the time, compared to DPSers? As an orc, if I am using an axe, I need to spend 263 on hit, and 369 on expertise, (Assuming 14% parry, which is variable) to hit 100% of the time. That's an awful lot of DPS stat for a tank, isn't it? I suppose they've balanced around that fact, but a parry is still a big loss of DPS, especially if they parry the big hit.

#32 Jayde

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 03:07 PM

Well, I too find the Expertise situation to be a bit stupid. The other tanks don't seem to rely so heavily on Expertise for two reasons.

a) Warriors have more parryable attacks per second than any other tank (and even faster than DW DK tanks if they are using slow weapons!) and thus have the higest gibbage rate from Parry-hasting by a considerable margin

B) Warriors and Druids both have a considerable amount of their threat which can be parried away, with the note that Druids get 10 Expertise from talents instead of 6 for Warriors. DKs have Rune Strike yet have 5 expertise from talents and most of a Paladin's threat comes from unavoidable attacks. (Shockwave is really the only attack for Warriors that can't be Parried.)

Although I could buy the argument that gear was designed this way to make itemization more interesting, it really only seems to heavily impact Warriors.

The interesting thing here is that a solution for this and Heroic Strike is one and the same. We don't like pushing buttons so often and we get penalized for attacking so often...so let's slow it down. :P

I could see this coming in a few directions, one would be an ability which replaced Heroic Strike--more like Rune Strike, without avoidance, much higher rage cost (say 20-30 rage), dealing increased damage/threat. Perhaps even make it an on-next-swing ability which delayed your next auto-attack by 50 or 100% and hit for double damage.

The other suggestion would be to make something along the lines of what Rustik suggested. 40-50 rage ability, doubles the damage and threat of your next few abilities.

Focused Rage
30 Rage
Instant
Increases the damage of you next 3 successful Shield Slam, Revenge, or Devastate abilities by 33/66/100%.

But barring something strange like that, I honestly would just love for a Heroic Strike replacement or change to the mechanic.

#33 Rustik

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 08:47 PM

A point I forgot about. I've been gathering up Shield rating gear, for experimental purposes. From the looks of it, I'm going to sacrifice a LOT just to get say 30% block and 1300 Block value( with buffs), with 55% avoidance, for an average block per swing of ~1126. Now, that's an extra 10% mitigation on patchwerk, but it looks like I'm going to lose a lot on the way there.

Seems kinda weird we have to spend so much on item budget just to make one of our defining characteristics useful.

#34 mistersix

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 09:46 PM

I honestly don't feel like the .5 second gap is all that terrible. A reduction on the cooldown would be gravy but I've seen other people aside from Rustik mention that particular macro (or a variation replacing one of the devs out with a hs) still being pretty seamless (assuming you're still doing something else for ss procs from snb).

#35 Xav

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 12:10 AM

Well damn, I drift away from EJ for a few days and miss this thread. Should've nudged me, Sat!

Anyhow, a few of us have gotten together for the past few weeks and discussed a bunch of these issues. We're finalizing the "write-ups" and intend to make a thread (like this one), but encompassing some other things as well.

The concerns here are fair. Warriors are near perfect, but rage is the mechanic that's still in the dark ages. There are a variety of "band-aid" style fixes that can be done to remedy things without doing an entire overhaul of the system. Revenge being readily usable, a normalization/buff to Devastate, and less of a need to have 100% HS uptime to maximize performance.

In about a week (and then about a week after that) there will be more on these subjects from me (and others).

#36 dahcleavah

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 04:07 AM

Possibly a bit off topic but how do you think that the rage system would be able to be fixed if not replaced just in general?

#37 Xav

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 04:38 AM

Possibly a bit off topic but how do you think that the rage system would be able to be fixed if not replaced just in general?


There's a few ideas we've talked about. One is to adjust the rage generation formula so that it's a curve that guarantees you generate a moderate amount of rage even from small hits, and don't get overflowing "infinite rage" scenarios when the damage scales up. It would allow the warrior to have a healthy rotation in any environment (assuming they also gain rage on dodge/parry/block), and not be forced to endlessly spam Heroic Strike in addition to their regular gcd abilities. An adjustment to the threat/damage of abilities would be required so that way threat and dps of the protection warrior remains appropriate with the toned-down HS frequency.

Another idea is to base rage generation purely on the warrior's damage they deal. This would require a complete overhaul of the system, but it would likely help out long-term by allowing warriors to function as a class even when they aren't being hit. This has more enjoyable PvP implications, as well as not being functionally useless as a tank when trying to generate threat as an offtank with no incoming damage.

These will be covered in more detail soon!

I also would like to add in here that the earlier idea proposed of reducing Revenge's cooldown to 3 seconds is an excellent idea, so it no longer fudges with your rotation.

#38 Jayde

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 10:23 AM

Will be interested to hear what you have, Xav.

Stamina Scaling

Anyway, after running some numbers over the weekend I have to say that someone else's note about Stamina scaling for Warriors is actually a very real concern.

I'm a bit worried as to how they intend for Warriors to keep up in terms of HP without either nerfing the Stamina boosting talents of the other class or buffing them for Warriors.

As of the current gear design, I believe fully raid-buffed Warriors will fall a little over 1k less health than Paladins in an 'optimal' gear setup--ignoring the fact that Paladins can stack Stamina more as they don't need Expertise gear--and substantially less than Druids. I'm not 100% sure what the situation with DKs is, although I've noticed that our lesser-geared DK tank has recently passed me in raid-buffed HP by a rather substantial margin.

This issue will only get worse in the next tier unless something is adjusted, as obviously Stamina pools will have to increase with a new tier of tanking gear.

Itemization and the Deluge of Stats

I also feel that the itemization concept for Warriors is broken compared to the other classes, simply due to the sheer amount of stats required for a Warrior to balance in order to optimize their gear. Having to look after and balance Armor, Stamina, Strength, Defense, Expertise, Hit, Parry, Dodge, Block, and Block Value seems far beyond the number of stats any other class has to balance in order to succeed at gearing. I feel they really need to simplify some portion of the Warrior gearing situation.

Many other classes that had overly convoluted gear setups got talents which would convert X stat into Y stat--be it Hunters getting AP from Int or DKs getting Parry from Strength--yet Warriors only have minor synergy in this regard with Strength -> Block Value, even though Block Value is still heavily itemized. They could have gone this direction with the old AttT design of giving Strength, but actually removed it due to the synergy instead of leaving it for the synergy! (As they were concerned as to its implications as a tanking talent--which was a bad thing?)

DKs don't have to care about Block Value/Block%. They have a lesser need for Expertise due to higher amounts from talents and the unavoidable nature of Rune Strike. They Armor-cap easily, so without the multipliers on bonus armor, armor is not much of a concern for them.

Druids obviously don't need Block Value, Block%, Parry, or Defense. They Armor-cap easily, so without the multipliers on bonus armor, armor is not much of a concern for them.

Paladins don't need Expertise.

Warriors, however, need all of the above in very specifically balanced amounts. If they want to streamline the class for future development I think a big part of it will be simplifying our need for gearing up 10 different stats simultaneously.

(Well, if you count Agility it's 11. Agility is a perfect example of the brokenness of itemization bloat, simply due to the fact that all Warriors ignore it even though it is actually the 3rd or 4th most efficient tanking stat per budget point. We simply have no more room for an 11th stat to juggle, even though it's quite good for us! Agility, point for point, is actually very good for Prot Warriors, yet is not itemized and generally ignored. Agility is, quite frankly, a far superior stat than Strength for Prot Warriors, which feels broken and misguided to me. It offers 75% of Strength's TPS increase per point at a gain of over 10 times the survivability per point.)

Make Strength Better

Bottom line for me, I would say that they need to continue much further down the road they started on. Strength needs a huge buff in terms of its tanking usefulness for Prot Warriors. There is zero point in giving us things like a 6% Strength increase when the stat is so trivial in terms of its contribution. Warriors need some way to convert Strength to more tanking-oriented stats in a straightforward way, and itemization should be slimmed down so that spreadsheets or being a math junkie isn't absolutely required just to be able to sort out gear.

Strength should have a larger impact on both mitigation and aggro, and should simply be a key part of gearing as a Warrior tank. Warriors miss all the 'fun' trickle-down type mechanics many other classes have--for instance, Paladins get the talent that increases their healing with their Stamina, a natural trickle-down for Protection Paladins. Warriors have nothing in the Protection tree that says 'When you have X stat, you get Y additional effect.' It's boring and unintuitive. (AttT was the only talent that did anything like this, and was specifically changed to be less attractive to Protection Warriors.)

Suggestions? Increase the Block Value trickle-down further. Give Expertise or Hit from either Strength or Stamina. Make Shield Slam scale better from Strength/AP. Give bonus Armor from Strength. There are tons of options, and even one or two trickle-down mechanics could make a huge difference.

In the end, they particularly need to sit down and run some numbers. If they can't make Strength better for Warriors than Agility, they need to scale it back down to where it was before and provide a mix of both Strength and Agility on gear. Agility should not be beat Strength at the same time that Strength is being put up as a 'primary' Warrior stat and is on all our tanking gear in large quantities. Strength should be providing at least as much mitigation as Agility in order to come out ahead.

#39 Satrina

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:03 PM

I was just noting last night that our DK tank suddenly had over 40k buffed health, yep. I can juggle stuff around for 38k health with 1300 block value, and I suppose I could gem up to match that health. But at the cost of other stats - as Jayde notes, we have many. Looking at my "typical" set which favours expertise and hit, 20ish percent block and 1000 block value, plus whatever mitigation is gained from 50 expertise is supposed to balance off against about 7k health. I'm not convinced.

Another aspect of the stamina wars - it's not something that will affect many of the posters here, but there is a perception thing that needs to be considered. Basically, Blizzard has decided that the raid game is to be accessible to more people. Fair enough, and I am happy that more people will see the inside of the instances. However, Joe PUG Raidleader usually doesn't learn the background information for every class and every nuance. More often than not, the criteria for a "good tank" is "how much health do you have raid buffed?" This in addition to other concerns that are actually real.

I'm of the opinion that block value should be retired as an itemised stat, the strength-block value conversion be tweaked a bit more, and that block be revisited for warriors (see block uptime vs. paladins). Also, block value is nice and all, but it scales poorly against content as it stands.

It would be pretty neat if the four tank classes had about the same number of stats to juggle. Not necessarily the same stats, but the number of stats. Really now, who thought that removing defense from the druid equation was a good idea? Lazy itemisation creates badness. Interesting to note that druids are getting a block-like ability, probably with some hit to health/armour. I guess the fact that pretty much every other multiplicative statistic in WoW was changed to something that scales reasonably finally caught up. Anyway.

And now for something completely different: Block and dodge/parry are backwards in their implementation in WoW. If you read historical battle accounts, or even take up an armoured combat sport, it becomes evident pretty quickly that a shield is a binary device. You blocked the attack, or you did not block the attack. Block should actually be avoidance. Given that, you then move dodge and parry to be mitigation stats, and when you dodge/parry an attack you reduce the damage it does by some amount - you turn out of the attack enough to lessen its effectiveness, so to speak. This opens the door to actually letting the avoidance tank exist as a viable option, and allows specialists in light armour with high avoidance as their main mitigator as an alternative to Tanky McTanksalot who stands in layered steel and soaks it up. You can now have different pros and cons for heavy vs. light armour (notably, caps on avoidance as you wear heavier armour,) while keeping mitigation levels similar. You also give migitation to everyone, so that your mages aren't completley screwed when something looks at them in their 2500 armour robes. Not that this is ever likely to happen in WoW, but there you go.

#40 zaon

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:43 PM

And now for something completely different: Block and dodge/parry are backwards in their implementation in WoW.


That is an interesting point. Suppose dodge/miss were the only true avoidances and parry/block were both mitigation effects. Block scaling off your shield block value, parry scaling off your strength (or possibly just a flat 50% less than normal hit). Then increase the shield block value from 1/2 per strength to 1 per strength, and the talents from 30% to 50%. This would rebalance warrior tanking a little, and also would close the threat gain gap for warriors if mobs used the same mechanic (and also prevent that string of double parries at the beginning of a fight from totally crippling your initial threat). While we were doing 3D Sarth I had several attempts where Tenebron is landing and I got a couple parried attacks to start and one of the dps pulled (can't afford to stack any expertise in our strat with my gear).

I am concerned about the stamina scaling especially though, even more so than any other issue. Because of our lack of cooldowns combined with this, any future encounter similar to Sarth 3D (massive burst damage to the MT) is going to see us as the 3rd (or even 4th) in the tank preference order. Not only that, but options 1 and 2 (DK,druid) are substantially better options. Either they need to retune (aka nerf) DK and druid health scaling, or they need to buff warrior/paladin health scaling and/or cooldowns.




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