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Finalizing the Prot Warrior design


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#41 Jayde

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:53 PM

I would also be inclined to support the idea of killing block value as an itemized stat. I'd also imagine Protection Paladins would be happy about this, as their gear is also itemized heavily with Strength and they have a +15% Strength talent which exceeds that of Warriors.

I find it strange that Blizzard has expressed such concern at the impact of Critical Block and Blocking in general, when Dodge is easily far more powerful than Block ever will be. With its low DR target (compared to Parry, especially) Dodge remains the most efficient way to scale avoidance in a global manner. It would take massive increases in Block Value for Block to even come close to rivaling other forms of avoidance, even considering Critical Block.

The only time Block is 'overpowered' is against trash mobs with Shield Block up, where you basically become invincible. Other times, it is quite low in terms of actual impact--especially on boss fights. It does contribute, but certainly not as much as Dodge or simply Armor. Considering the other tank classes also have plenty of 'oh shit' cooldowns, I don't find this to be too worrysome.

In regard to itemization, I would specifically like to see Warriors have to worry less about Expertise and less about Block Value--and possibly less about Hit, but I would go for Expertise if I had to choose between the two.

Satrina, you also make a good point about the HP situation. Health has always been a good 'abstract' casual measure of tanking ability historically-speaking, so often having the least health implies that you are the worst tank. (One could argue that is actually quite true in a number of practical scenarios as well--see Sarth or Malygos for that.)

#42 tarrek

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:57 PM

I also would like to add in here that the earlier idea proposed of reducing Revenge's cooldown to 3 seconds is an excellent idea, so it no longer fudges with your rotation.


Since they said that they want to get rid of random stun procs, I see a good opportunity for letting Improved Revenge reduce the cooldown of Revenge by 2-3 seconds instead of the chance to stun. I'd definitely be happy with a change like that.

#43 Xav

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:59 PM

In regard to itemization, I would specifically like to see Warriors have to worry less about Expertise and less about Block Value--and possibly less about Hit, but I would go for Expertise if I had to choose between the two.

Satrina, you also make a good point about the HP situation. Health has always been a good 'abstract' casual measure of tanking ability historically-speaking, so often having the least health implies that you are the worst tank. (One could argue that is actually quite true in a number of practical scenarios as well--see Sarth or Malygos for that.)


Two birds, one stone, buff Vitality. Closes the hp gap (and scaling issue) between tanking classes (as long as druids/dks get modified a bit, and slightly paladins), less expertise from gear needed for warriors.

There is no skill to be found around this spell other than hitting your keybind faster and hope for lower latency; not to mention that one option puts you into a gray area for bot banning. I enjoy the new warrior tanking and being GCD locked makes the class feel interactive and involved, but the HS mechanic removes all elegance from the spec altogether.



Yes. For some raid tanking where you have infinite rage, this is the big issue we're discussing. It's absolutely awesome now how I still have improvement to be done in instantly noticing and utilizing S&B procs, and constantly have to change up my rotation and account for working in Shockwave (and Conc blow again once they fix that I'm sure). But then having to mindlessly mash your HS key in many situations during all this really ruins the effect.

#44 Jayde

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 04:35 PM

Two birds, one stone, buff Vitality. Closes the hp gap (and scaling issue) between tanking classes (as long as druids/dks get modified a bit, and slightly paladins), less expertise from gear needed for warriors.


Yeah, honestly, small talent changes which would make a major difference would be buffing Vitality and changing Improved Revenge as was mentioned above to -1s/-2s on the cooldown.

Beyond that, fix the Heroic Strike issue either with a new talent, glyph, or mechanic change then add in a 'Justified Killing'-like feature as they mentioned...and Warriors would be in decent enough shape that I wouldn't be too worried about the future.

#45 camullo

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 04:45 PM

Ok, there are fights where you have endless rage and need to dump it. The problem so far: You have no rage dumper. MS and BT both costs 30rage, have a small CD (5sec) and provides and large amount of dmg. Something I miss in the protection tree cause with Revenge, S&B proccs and Focused Rage most of my abilities costs less than rage generated through incDMG. A 30rage attack, attacking up to 3enemies would be very nice (like ProtPala 51point Talent Hammer of the Righteous), nice for single, nice for packs.
The other point is that thanks to itemization Avoidance is less favoured than Stamina. BoSanc was mentioned in the original post which is atm a prot pala unic buff. In 10mans we raid with DK,Warri in 25man we also doesn't have the buff. So Vigilance could get buffed by providing the same buff instead of the 10% threat (would fit into Blizzards new buff politics). Also theres some missing synergy between strength and avoidance/dmg in our prot tree and our "Enrage" is just giving 10% more DMG making Defstance + Enrage a 1% DMG nerf (generally we are the only class with stance restrictions and penalties..)
Our Stamina problem will honestly not be solved by buffing us while Ferals still gain 20% Stamina and ProtPalas with 14% ( I don't know about DKs so far). 6% sounds pretty good to me, 20% is just an insane amount, that shall be nerfed cause the difference between Stamina on Leather and Plates is surely not 20% ...
My last point: We are the only class with few (Commando, Battle, Demo) raid buffs and no "passive" aura buffing the raid. Ferals have 5% and heal, DKs have for 2Points either Heal, Resistance or Movement, Prots have Resitances, Armor (and +heal), Ret and Spellpushback. Bringing a warrior means both: having less buffs (especially blessings like Kings which will become baseline or might) and having less survivability (10man Sapp without Shaman and Pala..).

#46 Xav

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 05:46 PM

Check out this post bird. General Tanking Topics #1: Heroic Strike - TankSpot
Judging by your post I get the impression you may not have seen that yet. That topic (and the other coming) is the distillation of a lot of thoughts/discussion a few of us had, and then brought it to a news post.
Another is coming at the end of the week which deals with the rage issue.

I agree with your #6. Merging the shout talents a bit would let us spec in to them "fully", however, if they go ahead and fix battle/command so they aren't something we have to recast often, they may have to cannibalize the tree a bit anyway.

I don't think haste is on any WoTLK tanking gear, am I wrong?

I also don't think they need to get rid of the PvP talents we have, Imp Disarm is in that boat too. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving us mostly PvP-useful abilities (with some limited use in PvE) in our tree, as long as they aren't awful. Imp. Disarm and Safeguard are both extremely useful in PvP.

#47 Fellwraith

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 07:27 PM

I had a big long blog post here about what I think is broken with current state of tanking mechanics, but just to add a bit to what people have already said.

I'm not really sure why anyone at Blizzard thinks health is an adequate substitute for the inability to block. They really need to create mechanics that allow other tanking classes to absorb a flat amount of damage rather than add a lot of health or armor to that class. Every single tanking class has outscaled Warrior's health pool in the first tier of content and they all have faster scaling coefficients than us. This will only become a bigger problem as we progress through content. I understand why they chose to give these classes higher coefficients (to make up for a lower base health pool and prevent Ret or Holy paladins from sitting at 25-30k hp in pvp), but I think it would have been better for them to just add a flat amount of HP to some of these talents instead of a quickly scaling stamina multiplier.

To Satrina's comments about Joe-PUG raider, you can take that even a step further when comparing tanks, because not all of us have the same passive physical damage reduction on our tanking "stance". Warriors are at 10%, paladins are at 9%, druids are at 12% and DKs substitute armor for a stance modifier. So the DK with 33k armor has the same mitigation profile as me (pre-block), but my armor value is only 28k with raid buffs. I would imagine that most people would assume the DK with 31k armor is mitigating more, just because his number is bigger. Oh yea, we also scale differently with inspiration and ancestral fortitude because of this.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the cooldown differentials between us and other tanks probably also needs to be looked at. I don't necessarily think that all tanking types should play the same, however, stuff like shieldwall and icebound fortitude should be a similar duration/effect. If you don't do that, then tuning encounters for those abilities becomes impossible. Giving someone 35% mitigation at the defense cap (and it can scale higher) every minute is not an "oh shit" button, that's a regular source of damage reduction. It also scales with incoming damage of all types, unlike shieldblock.

I'm fine with 2-3 pvp talents in the prot tree, I like their placement and I think they're quite useful if you wanted to set up a prot pvp team. I really don't see those as wasted talents, every tank class has a few of them in their tanking trees.

The only item I've seen with haste on it is mark of norgannon. Given the fact that most of the rest of the epic "tank-focused" trinkets in this tier are throw-aways anyway, I guess I don't have a problem with having another.

#48 Phatha

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 07:29 PM

In response to the discussion Liar and Jayde are having, perhaps having Vigilance on the MT proc both Revenge and Overpower would be a more well-rounded solution. Since you can't really use both at the same time because it would require stance dancing back and forth, this would give you the option to dps in def stance (build threat) or dps in battle stance (less threat). I also have Overpower and Revenge mapped to the same button for their respective stances so it would be nice to just push one button regardless of which situation I'm in.

I like the idea of buffing Strength, both by allowing Strength to increase mitigation and also buffing Vitality. As an occasional off-tank, I've been tempted to socket for Strength in red sockets. Extra strength provides more block, bit more rage when not being hit and extra dmg when you're stuck dpsing for most of a fight in tank gear ie off-tanking KT.

#49 Charmath

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:12 PM

My take on some of the issues discussed:

1. Rage generation scaling inversly with gear. The rage generation from blocking is a step in the right direction, but my favorite suggestion is probably to have the rage formula altered a bit from dealing damage and reducing rage from taking damage.

2. HS queue spam. It is indeed very tedious to spam HS all the time in infinite rage fights. A toggle might be an option. It would be the same getting used to when to toggle on and off, as knowing when to queue/not queue HS. Or HS could be changed to cost a percentage of your rage and damage scale accordingly.

2.5. I was also thinking about a new ability to dump rage. Perhaps a Prot talent on a resonably short cooldown (20-30secs) that converts your rage into a damage shield. Something like 40-50 damage/rage point.

3. Imp. Revenge (2/2) reducing cooldown with 2 seconds. Excelent idea; would make our rotation a bit smoother. Not that I really have huge concerns with our current "rotation". The damage increase from the talent would perhaps have to be removed or lowered to 5/10% with a reduced cd.

4. Revert the Devastate change. I very much like this idea. Devastate is quite poor at the moment. Also, changing it back to how it used to be could make prot a viable dps:er when fewer tanks are needed. My experience on single tank fights is that mostly DK and Druid tanks go dps. This might be solved with dual-specs, but I don't see any reason not to increase the damage output of a prot spec while not tanking. Atm, my dps is laughable in a prot spec when I'm not taking any hits.

5. Vitality change. I'd like to see an increase to put us on par with Paladin stamina scaling. Also, instead of a flat Expertise increase I'd like to see reduction in parries (1/3/5%), much like Fury has reduction on dodges only (1/2%). Either this or have raid bosses parry chance reduced, so we don't have to stack up on huge amounts of expertise.

#50 mistersix

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:51 PM

I know we have more stats to juggle than most classes but really at this point there are some that are sort of "set it and forget it" in gearing approaches. Prot warriors don't really need to worry about def, stam, or armor as they just come along incrementally with gear. Avoidance stats tend to be conflated on the same piece of gear (lots of dodge and parry pieces out there). Mitigation stats like block rating and block value are less frequent and seem to be something blizz increasingly needs to shy away from -- there are only 20+ viable epics today that work with those stats. I personally tend to be more focused on +exp and +hit gear since those numbers are still harder to come.

If blizz wanted to minimize the number of stats for us then they could:
- do away with block value as an itemized stat but keep it in the came. Maybe even turn it into a flat 1:1 conversion off of str. If need be they could also just increase the block number on shields themselves to compensate.
- move our +crit modifier off of agi and put it onto str instead.
- blend expertise and hit into one stat with 3 caps. The first removes dodges, the second removes parry, the final removes miss.

#51 Jayde

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 10:13 PM

To Satrina's comments about Joe-PUG raider, you can take that even a step further when comparing tanks, because not all of us have the same passive physical damage reduction on our tanking "stance". Warriors are at 10%, paladins are at 9%, druids are at 12% and DKs substitute armor for a stance modifier. So the DK with 33k armor has the same mitigation profile as me (pre-block), but my armor value is only 28k with raid buffs. I would imagine that most people would assume the DK with 31k armor is mitigating more, just because his number is bigger. Oh yea, we also scale differently with inspiration and ancestral fortitude because of this.


Of note, DKs don't just substitute Armor; they gain 10% total health from Frost Presence as well--which is why their health scales so quickly when also stacked with 6% Stamina from Veteran of the Third War. They also gain 15% spell damage reduction, which causes their base spell damage reduction to be similar to Defensive Stance (with talents.)

It's hard to quantify the damage reduction of DKs, though, since they seem to have more cooldowns than we have abilities in our normal threat rotation. ;)

But, yes, it leads to a bit of an inconsistant situation. DKs and Druids will scale in health much faster than Paladins which will scale a bit faster than Warriors which are left quite a ways behind. I'm not sure what the argument for Warriors having lower health than Paladins is, though, considering we share most mitigation mechanics (Block and passive DR%) and they get some passive toys that scale very well with health, such as Ardent Defender. I could definitely seen an argument for bumping up Warrior Stamina scaling to at least match that of Paladins.

I know we have more stats to juggle than most classes but really at this point there are some that are sort of "set it and forget it" in gearing approaches. Prot warriors don't really need to worry about def, stam, or armor as they just come along incrementally with gear. Avoidance stats tend to be conflated on the same piece of gear (lots of dodge and parry pieces out there). Mitigation stats like block rating and block value are less frequent and seem to be something blizz increasingly needs to shy away from -- there are only 20+ viable epics today that work with those stats. I personally tend to be more focused on +exp and +hit gear since those numbers are still harder to come.


I understand your point, but I'm not sure I agree in all cases. I find that Defense is a very real consideration for Warriors, as hitting and staying over 540 Defense is not all that easy. Going between pre-raid and 10-man gear and then 10-man gear to 25-man gear actually results in a LOSS of Defense in many slots, leading to much juggling required. Even the best-in-slot setups don't have much more than 550 Defense, and that's even using Defense Gems and Enchants. Defense balancing is very much a part of Warrior gearing and consideration IMO.

Due to this, I think Stamina becomes a strong consideration. Warriors aren't always able to optimize the highest-Stamina pieces due to the need for Expertise, Hit, and Defense balancing.

I would also say that Armor is an exceptionally good stat for Warriors from a statistical point of view, but it is almost never utilized due to the previous deluge of stat juggling--who is going to sacrifice Defense or Stamina on a trinket or enchant for Armor when it's already hard to get enough HP compared to the other tanks or reach the Defense cap? Many Armor items and enchants are actually very solid in terms of survival increases but simply must be ignored to meet harder requirements on HP, Defense, and Expertise.

This is made more difficult by the fact that Blizzard seems to design gear in 'niche' design types. There are certain balances of the stats they like using very often, and others that are never seen. It's often hard to make a 'well-rounded' set like a Warrior needs without a lot of calculator work and trial/error.

So, all in all, I just feel that it's a bit too painful to really analyze gear as the 'average Warrior'. Expertise is probably the biggest culprit, because not everyone understands how important it really is.

I'm sure most people don't really know that by swapping from Broken Promise (slow) to Last Laugh (fast) they will take about 3% more effective DPS due to Parry Haste--even with 23 Expertise!--on the average boss. It's just not an easy or intuitive mechanic to understand.

#52 Fellwraith

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 11:19 PM

Of note, DKs don't just substitute Armor; they gain 10% total health from Frost Presence as well--which is why their health scales so quickly when also stacked with 6% Stamina from Veteran of the Third War. They also gain 15% spell damage reduction, which causes their base spell damage reduction to be similar to Defensive Stance (with talents.)

It's hard to quantify the damage reduction of DKs, though, since they seem to have more cooldowns than we have abilities in our normal threat rotation.

But, yes, it leads to a bit of an inconsistant situation. DKs and Druids will scale in health much faster than Paladins which will scale a bit faster than Warriors which are left quite a ways behind. I'm not sure what the argument for Warriors having lower health than Paladins is, though, considering we share most mitigation mechanics (Block and passive DR%) and they get some passive toys that scale very well with health, such as Ardent Defender. I could definitely seen an argument for bumping up Warrior Stamina scaling to at least match that of Paladins.

Well Prot Paladins have a much lower base health as part of the class, the logic being that they don't want a lot of base health on a ret or holy paladin (probably for pvp reasons). Paladins probably don't want a nerf, so you're right, they probably just need to have all the tanks running around with ridiculous healthpools and adjust damage to compensate. 14% stamina like a paladin is probably not the right answer given our higher base health, but it should be a lot closer than it is. Edit: To be totally honest what they should do is have deep prot paladin talents add some base health instead of a multiplier, reduce them to a 10% stamina multiple and increase warriors to the same. That puts all the plate tanks on the same playing field (more or less).

Originally the frost presence health and armor bonus were supposed to help compensate them for not having block or the stats from a shield (as well as related enchants). Then they upped the presence's armor multiplier to 80% (from 60%) in 3.08 because they didn't like DKs being so reliant on cooldowns and someone realized a squishy tank was out of a job. What they should have done was added a frost presence damage reduction multiplier so DKs are like every other tank. My ilvl 226 shield adds 56% more armor to my baseline tanking gear, it's nowhere near an 80% increase. Effectively what that 80% mutliplier does is give them a physical damage reduction modifier similar to our stance, but it interacts with other buffs in game in very strange ways. Ways that our stance modifiers don't (armor caps out, stuff like unbreakable armor needs to go through a wholesale revision, etc.) They've created a situation where you don't have apples to apples when you're comparing tanks mitigation and they didn't need to.

#53 Jayde

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 12:22 AM

I think the base health argument made more sense at 70 with the previous Stamina and base values. Right now, Warriors only have something like 1.2k more base health than a Paladin, which quickly gets made up for with such a different multiplier.

Considering that around the 2200 gear/buff Stamina mark (without multipliers) Paladins have 500 HP more than Warriors, it's not hard to see that this will get worse quite quickly with another 13 ilevels of gear.

DK and Druid health scaling is pretty different with high multipliers and a health vs. stamina multiplier, so I won't even bother going there!

#54 Tyvi

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:10 PM

Interesting points about Heroic Strikes have been brought up. One of my biggest concerns related to HS is that it dictates our weapon choice. I recently picked up a but I really don't like using it over as a Human Warrior (and "fortunately" rage mechanics are so fucked up that I can get away with it on many bosses, specifically those that won't feed you so much rage that you need a fast weapon to dump it fast enough like Patchwerk or Thaddius etc). I trade 6 expertise (rounded up) for 15 more weapon DPS, so it's a terrible choice in my opinion - but unless they normalize HS in some way I will have to use it anyway.
Seriously, it's backwards at the moment; think about it, if Heroic Strike wasn't this messed up then who in their right mind would want to use a faster weapon with the same stats/DPS over a slower one? The slower one is vastly superior for deep wounds, devastate damage and less chance to get parried - it's not even a contest.
Warriors definitely need a different rage dump than HS to achieve this, I don't think a HS toggle will fix this though a cooldown might.

On a different topic, I really don't mind that we have to care about more stats than other tanks (barring Block Rating, because it caps out early). Sure, it means we have to get a good balance of all stats but on the other hand it means we have the potential (and I am saying potential here because some things like our lower stamina scaling have to be solved via talents, gear cannot change these sort of problems) to scale well because spreading stats out is rewarded in the current itembudget calculations. I am hopeful that better itemized tier gear in Ulduar and beyond will alleviate some of our scaling problems but I am not kidding myself that it will fix everything. Stamina scaling needs to be addressed. Blizzard will need to figure out where they want to go with Block as well, the mechanic is just too random. It's basically full avoidance on hits that are below youblock value but it's relatively worthless compared to just having higher health/armor against hits like Hatefuls.
I am all for a niche where we are better at something than other classes because of our block as long as it means we can still tank other stuff without being too much of a burden (and vice versa!). Sarth 3D is sort of an odd one here: We are amazing tanks for elemental/whelp duty because with Block Rating/Block Value gear and Shockwave we require so much less healing than non-shield tanks that we are, dare I say, the best choice for this particular job. On the other hand this does not exclude DKs, Druids or Paladins from being able to a good job on whelps/elementals either which in my eyes, is how it should be. However, if you compare a Death Knight or a Druid with a Warrior or Paladin for MTing Sarth, then the gap is just much bigger than the one you have when you compare whelp/elemental tanks with each other. If Blizzard could manage to lessen that gap right there, then we'd be in much better shape - and I don't see this happening without Warriors and most like Paladins getting some health buffs down the road.

#55 Satrina

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:15 PM

I am all for a niche where we are better at something than other classes because of our block

Holy Shield makes paladins 30% better in a block niche fight, no? By that I mean 30% block rating on gear that goes to other stats instead. Yeah, we get critical block - how much of an overall difference would that really make?

#56 Tyvi

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:41 PM

Holy Shield makes paladins 30% better in a block niche fight, no? By that I mean 30% block rating on gear that goes to other stats instead. Yeah, we get critical block - how much of an overall difference would that really make?


Roughly, Warriors have 30% more Block Value through Critical Block and Paladins have 30% more Block Rating than us. I don't know the exact itembudget values but I am pretty sure that 1 Block Rating is worth more than 1 Block Value so it might look like Paladins could have the edge there (this is a bit simplified tho, see below):

Now keep in mind that Holy Shield has limited charges. The way we do our Sarth3D in 10 man is that we do not DPS the adds down apart from the add tank's own DPS and Magma Totem(s). As soon as whelps spawn you generally have 10 whelps and 3-4 blazes on you at all times*, which can eat through Holy Shield pretty quickly. On top of that, we have Shield Block and/or Shockwave for multiple enraged adds to keep damage down by quite a bit.
Paladins on the other hand will generally have a bit more AoE DPS than us while whittling down the adds and can possibly throw in another HoSac/Blessing on your Sarth MT so they bring a different tool set from us while still being within what I would call the "block niche".
I can't speak about upcoming encounters and I assume that your question was more in a general sense of "what if there were X adds continously hitting on you, who would make the better tank?". It's hard to say as you can see above. How many is X? Are they stunnable? Do they have any special ability that we can mitigate with Shield Block? Are they undead? Etc.

*unless the RNG gods really hate/love you - anyone else think it's somewhat silly that the hardest fight is so RNG based? <_<

#57 Satrina

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:53 PM

I am generally the add whelp and flame for Sarth3D also, yeah. It just works better that way.

Block niche would really depend on the mechanics of the fight, yep. Holy Shield may have limited charges, but Shield Block has limited time, so that could work out as a wash if you get owned as soon as it ends. A set bonus that extends Shield Block duration could be interesting, though.

#58 mistersix

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 05:15 PM

I find it very odd that there are as many effects as there are that REDUCE the rage cost (imp hs, glyph of revenge) of our rage dump or give rage back (glyph of hs). Seems to be at cross-purposes. Improved heroic strike should just add more dmg to the spell. The Glyph of Revenge could be used for what Jayde is proposing or something else like it to light it up when you're offtanking. The glyph of heroic strike could add even more dmg to hs but at the cost of adding a cooldown to it.

#59 Satrina

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 05:50 PM

Well, Improved HS is beneficial to DPS types for increasing DPS. Ditto the HS glyph. The Revenge glyph is a bit puzzling, yes. As we well know, the perfect rotation is one where all white damage swings are replaced with HS. Back in the day, that wasn't possible very often, so we took Improved HS to get closer to that ideal. Now we're at the point where rage generation is fairly binary in general. If you're tanking raid bosses, Improved HS is pretty wasted. If you're tanking a 5 man, well, it's actually pretty wasted there too since you don't often have enough extra rage to take even a 9 rage HS =)

You can't really change the presence of Improved HS, or the HS glyph. We could always start building specs that don't use Improved HS, but the question is then what to take instead?

#60 kahalm

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 05:53 PM

some of you claim that a slower weapon is better for devastate, but since this attack is normalized the difference should be marginal

edit: typo




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