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Druid Changes Patch 3.1


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#21 HypnosZdC

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:19 PM

So what role do they think we play? Savage Defense seems to be targeted at tanking single, slow-hitting targets. I would also suggest it's targeted at targets that deal spell damage since the shield is more effective against spells than melee because it's most likely pre-armor. Are they trying to make us caster tanks?


Damage shields/blocking is more effective against weak hitting Bosses. The larger the Hit the less of a percentage
is the damage shield. Reducing a 5k hit by 1.5k is way better then 15k->13.5k

One more thing that kinda worries me: it will be MUCH harder to determine the defensive value of an item.
Let's say you have one with lot's of Agi and Haste against one with Crit and AP.
Now you can say: the one with agility is better, because it gives dodge while the second item doesn't give any
defensive stats.
With 3.1 that won't be possible any more because all 4 stats offer defensive values...

#22 david0925

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:24 PM

Savage Defense is pretty much a passive Bear Block which is reliant on both own attack speed and opponent's swing speed, as opposed to opponent's swing speed like Shield Block is. Now all stats will influence a bear's mitigation value (i guess not ArP), even haste is going to play a minor factor in faster autoattack/maul for higher uptime on SD.

This solves a lot of issue with bears just scaling poorly with Rogue gear.

#23 Alerian

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:27 PM

Yes, giving Moonkin Last Stand is clearly just a flavor thing, and definitely not a PvP buff.


True, I was very much exaggerating and a little bit too negative at first about Feral point spending. Thinking more about it, you could do something like this to pick it up, which could be quite nice for the extra armor as well. I'd be slightly concerned about mana, but you could shift points around in Balance for Dreamstate. There was a GC post about eventually deleting or changing CF, so perhaps that could come into play for extra DS points as well.

#24 Makapuu

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:31 PM

Honestly, this change is entirely dependent on the nerf to SotF and if any sort of hidden cooldown is attached to it as well.

A CD on the proc would be bad to say the least. I would rather have the 6864 armor and be less dependent on my crit chance to proc damage reduction in a boss fight.

I like that they are trying to give us another scalar but am unsure about this mechanic until I see more details.

#25 kalbear

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:31 PM

Haste will still be a marginal stat. It will improve the chances of getting another crit, but the majority of your attack speed and crits will come from GCD attacks, not from autoattack.

I very much like the idea, though having it be more controlled would be welcome. This should be up 100% of the time against multiple mobs, though past a certain point it won't be all that good. Assuming you get a shield every 1.5 seconds from swipe and a shield every 2.5 seconds from maul (this is on the high end), this means in 15 seconds time you will get 16 shields. Assuming 50% avoidance, that means 32 attacks in 15 seconds. That's the maximum shields that you could get in that time, no matter what. As long as you have enough targets to reasonably get a high likelihood of swipe getting one crit, more targets will not help you.

I suspect that this probability will top off around 4 mobs. Which is still far better than it is currently for multimob tankng, but weaker than shield wearers.

Ironically this is almost precisely the recommended change that Kazanir had for druids back in beta: remove all bonus armor from jewelry, give bears a shield based on AP. The outcry at the time was severe, because he was suggesting that 45k health and 40k armor were too powerful and bears needed to be brought in line with other tanks.

#26 Embittered

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:58 PM

The largest issue I see with resto is the lack luster talents deep in the tree. With Uldaar itemization, we have the ability to take more points out of GotEM. Considering this is our major 5/5 talent in our tree, I am curious to see if Blizzard will alter the talent to encourage people to not remove points at higher gear levels. Also, it seems at a glance the change to Replenish will not be enough to encourage point investment.

#27 Tacocat

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:02 PM

As long as you have enough targets to reasonably get a high likelihood of swipe getting one crit, more targets will not help you.


More targets will in fact hurt you. If I'm tanking 5 mobs I have a reasonably good chance of Swipe critting on one. Now I get a shield for one of the next attacks, but the other 4 mobs are now hitting me harder due to the armor nerf.

#28 Cuer

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:12 PM

Savage Defense has some interesting implications for feral PVP. Reducing spell damage with that will further improve the usefulness of bear PVP for survivability. A lot depends on the implementation, though; will a tic of a DoT/Bleed remove the buff?

I don't know that it's a good thing to encourage even more bear form use for PVP, but that seems quite likely, if this goes through with no cooldowns. Of course, if the armor reduction is severe, we could end up worse off against fast hitting opponents, especially those with stuns (see: Rogues.)

#29 BeldDD

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:14 PM

Probably stating the obvious, but this also draws a more firm line in the sand between bears and cats given that many pure cat ferals don't spec into Protector of the Pack. Less AP, less absorb, less use as a sometimes ot.

#30 Makapuu

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:38 PM

Let's make a comparison between Savage Defense and armor. Let's assume that you have 38k armor, 7k AP, and that the boss hits for 40k pre-mitigation. 38k armor reduces that hit to 12,179. Now let's say that you had a Savage Defense shield up, which knocks off 1750 damage, and the final hit was 12,179. In that case the original hit was 13,929, which occurs if you have 31,136 armor. That means the shield was worth 6,864 armor. Of course, it's less reliable than straight armor, but it's quite powerful and probably works on spells too.



Assuming 38k armor and 7k AP the shield would be equivalent to 4716 armor not 6864.

Assuming 38k armor DR is -->    0.695524847
Boss hits for -->               40000
Damage reduction -->            27820.99387
Hits for -->                    12179.00613
SD is 25% AP -->                1750
Hits for  after SD shield-->    10429.00613
Total DR -->                    29570.99387
As a percent -->                0.739274847
Worth in Armor ->               4716




#31 kalbear

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:46 PM

Makapuu, I think you're looking at it the wrong way; he was saying if you took the same damage from before but used a shield, how much armor would that be worth? So yes, you'd need 42k armor to get the same result if you were at 38k; but if you were at 38k and then got nerfed to 31k, the shield would roughly compensate.

#32 Makapuu

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:54 PM

Ahh, I see what you mean.

Its early here, was mildly confused and very coffee deprived.

#33 Allev

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:25 PM

The SD shield will buff soloing bears pretty significantly with both iLOTP and the shield... Possibly to the point of prot pallies.

Because the shield is uncontrollable though, you can never count on it for worst-case survivability unless you're dealing with long spell cast times. It's both a shift to more magic and less physical mitigation, and less guaranteed physical mitigation.

Also, the average time-to-activate isn't indicative of # of blocks-- if you crit twice before the boss hits you, you don't get 2 shields. Also, when you dodge, you don't lose your shield (hopefully). So the uptime is going to be a complicated formula involving boss damage, boss swing timer, player AP, player crit, player avoidance, player haste, player hit rating (more hits = more chances of crits on 2-roll attacks), and expertise (same as hit but twice as effective, plus not speeding up the boss swing timer).

Essentially, every stat except armor penetration becomes a tanking stat.

#34 Maraili

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:30 PM

As an update to this thread, Bornakk has just stated that mana regeneration mechanics are going to be changing come 3.1

Details can be found here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming Changes to Mana Regeneration

I think its a little bit too early to be drawing any hard conclusions based on what we have been told though, since no numbers were provided that we can work with. I guess we'll be waiting until the PTR then to figure out these changes.

#35 Falk

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:42 PM

When trying to model SD uptime vs boss swing speeds, etc, remember that melee attacks can be avoided.

Edit: Boss' attacks, not your attacks.

#36 Cube

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:50 PM

I think its a little bit too early to be drawing any hard conclusions based on what we have been told though, since no numbers were provided that we can work with. I guess we'll be waiting until the PTR then to figure out these changes.


Just from Bronakk's statements, I really don't think that it's really going to change much for druids. In consistent, high damage scenarios, there's very little time spent out of the 5sr because of all of our instants and short casts, and we have plenty of buttons to fill GCD's with in high raid damage situations as well.

If anything, this makes spirit a more desirable stat, because the effective innervate ceiling(where innervate regenerates more than 100% of your mana) will be much higher than it is currently.

#37 Scurn

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:51 PM

--
Warrior (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)
* You now gain rage when damage done to you is absorbed, such as through a Power Word: Shield.
--

With the new Savage Defense I hope that druids get something similar to this where the damage absorbed by SD still gives us rage. Otherwise it will negatively affect us when we overgear an instance such as a normal 5man. I know it's not a huge issue but it was a constant complaint from warriors in BC and something that Blizzard acknowledged as a problem. The one hit removal regardless of damage will mediate this but I do hope that applies to actual hits and not random dot ticks.

#38 Playered

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:09 PM

As an update to this thread, Bornakk has just stated that mana regeneration mechanics are going to be changing come 3.1

Details can be found here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming Changes to Mana Regeneration

I think its a little bit too early to be drawing any hard conclusions based on what we have been told though, since no numbers were provided that we can work with. I guess we'll be waiting until the PTR then to figure out these changes.

(Resto)
We should get very little loss in our regeneration from these changes as we were not really using the OO5SR that often at all on important encounters. Innervate will suffer to a degree that is based on the reduction on the formula and it might even make the Glyph near required to get a full return of mana from it, but we cannot really say until numbers come out.

The most annoying thing about this change is that it raises the podium on which Int stands while it lords over the ever weakening Spirit stat.

In terms of Regeneration you should end up seeing Int go from 0.57 to around 0.48-0.53~, and Spirit should go from around 0.33 to 0.18-0.23~ but that is subjective on the numbers we see come out on the PTR. MP5 becomes a slightly more valuable stat due to this change but that mostly comes down to the other two stats becoming weaker, Spirit really will suffer from this change which is sad considering it was struggling to keep up with Int at the best of times.

All this is tied to the way the OO5SR regeneration change hurts Innervate. If Innervate was also modified to retain a similar value as it has pre 3.1 then there will be no real problem with this change and everything is fine (Priests do not really get effected in as significant a way as we are thanks to Innervate).

#39 charriu

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:14 PM

As an update to this thread, Bornakk has just stated that mana regeneration mechanics are going to be changing come 3.1

Details can be found here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming Changes to Mana Regeneration

I think its a little bit too early to be drawing any hard conclusions based on what we have been told though, since no numbers were provided that we can work with. I guess we'll be waiting until the PTR then to figure out these changes.


What I was wondering when I read this changes is this:

We are also taking a close look at clearcasting procs themselves. One likely outcome is to change them to an Innervate-like surge of mana so that the net benefit is the same, but healers won’t shift to out-of-casting regeneration so often.


Well, what's the implication for cats?

1) The clearcasting proc is replaced with an energy proc
2) It stays the same
3) Changed to Vitality like mechanic
4) ?

Well, I guess we'll have to wait for the PTR.

#40 Embittered

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:19 PM

What I was wondering when I read this changes is this:


Well, what's the implication for cats?

1) The clearcasting proc is replaced with an energy proc
2) It stays the same
3) Changed to Vitality like mechanic
4) ?

Well, I guess we'll have to wait for the PTR.


Most likely the feral OOC will remain the same, as energy and rage are separate from mana.




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