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Druid Changes Patch 3.1


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#41 Inaiwae

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:26 PM

About Savage Defense: the concept of a shield dropping after 1st attack seems quite unhappy to me. It probably works fine on bosses (though more spiky than armor), but it is quite ineffective on AoE packs. You may have it up every 1.5 second (swipe), but when you are attacked by 10 mobs, then 1 blocked attack means nothing. And we already are in disadvantage here against classes that can block.

So far i am quite disappointed with it.

#42 hquest

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:30 PM

I again support my feelings about guilds running onto Ulduar in the very beginning of the instance and even as casters, having defense talents. You see, they are adjusting things to not look as easy as WotLK start was. These days any dirty pug can run thru and defeat all raid content so far, they can even do achievements :) Now, I guess people will still run into starter raid instances as pugs and then joining as a guild for real content challenges. While well established guilds from pre-WotLK (or pre-BC) found this new expansion easier than expected, things now should begin to be challenging. Mobs doing a hell lot of damage, damage reduction talents and spells on all specs, mana regeneration adjusments, yeah, for me it makes sense what Blizzard is doing. We will see a decrease on our damage for Ulduar, otherwise 15k damages will be white damage. For either mobs or for any player.

#43 kalbear

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:34 PM

About Savage Defense: the concept of a shield dropping after 1st attack seems quite unhappy to me. It probably works fine on bosses (though more spiky than armor), but it is quite ineffective on AoE packs. You may have it up every 1.5 second (swipe), but when you are attacked by 10 mobs, then 1 blocked attack means nothing. And we already are in disadvantage here against classes that can block.

When are bears tanking 10 mobs on any difficult content?

And one blocked attack can be equivalent to 10 mobs hitting more armor depending on how hard they hit, how much armor you're losing and how fast they're hitting. Armor really isn't that big a deal against soft-hitting mobs compared to how much a shield could block.

#44 david0925

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:36 PM

About Savage Defense: the concept of a shield dropping after 1st attack seems quite unhappy to me. It probably works fine on bosses (though more spiky than armor), but it is quite ineffective on AoE packs. You may have it up every 1.5 second (swipe), but when you are attacked by 10 mobs, then 1 blocked attack means nothing. And we already are in disadvantage here against classes that can block.

So far i am quite disappointed with it.


I honestly don't think AoE tanking was that bad the way it is. Sure they are able to block, but we have armor which partially offsets the disadvantage of not having block.

With that said, the nerf to armor to compensate for this buff is pretty delicate, and we really need to see how much armor we lose to determine what kind of relationship we'll have with these changes.

#45 Drashian

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:44 PM

What I was wondering when I read this changes is this:


Well, what's the implication for cats?

1) The clearcasting proc is replaced with an energy proc
2) It stays the same
3) Changed to Vitality like mechanic
4) ?

Well, I guess we'll have to wait for the PTR.


Just speculation, but number 1 seems pretty likely. It already exists for rogues, after all (Combat Potency). It would also:
  • Simplify cat DPS slightly (no DPS lost for using a proc on the wrong ability)
  • Significantly reduce the number of swipes we'd be able to spam during very short AoE packs (no free ones, since the return would almost definitely be less than 45 energy per proc)
  • Reduce our burst damage against single targets / players (same reason, less free energy all in one proc)
I don't know how the first two things align with Blizzard's ideas for the class, but I know they've been concerned with cat burst damage in PvP.

On the other hand, it would interact with Berserk in a way that doesn't happen with Combat Potency and Adrenaline Rush: OOC procs would double in value for any proc that could be spent during a Berserk. It would probably have to be balanced around that, but it would make the choice of using Berserk during Heroism/Bloodlust much more appealing.

#46 Allev

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:05 PM

Against 10 mobs, assume that you're maul/swiping. You'll land on average 2 hits every 2 seconds from maul, plus 10 hits times 1.5 seconds with swipe. Assume 33% crit, and you have independent 5/9 blocks every 2 seconds and a 96% block every 1.5 seconds. Enemy swing timers of 1.5 seconds, and you get 10-15% total damage mitigated (assuming the swings are for less than your total attack). And that's at 0 avoidance-- at 50% avoidance you're eliminating 20-30% of damage.

The full 66% armor buff we get from SOTF (additive to the rest) increases our total armor by .66/5 = 13%. That 13% armor would take 30k armor to 34k. 30k armor does 64% reduction, 34k does 67% reduction. 3/37 is approximately 8% total damage reduction.

So, from 8% reduction to 20%-30% sounds like a net gain in AOE tanking, to me, even if they eliminate SotF armor entirely.

#47 Krag

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:24 PM

Savage Defense might not be as good as block for specific situations like AE tanking a lot of mobs (which I hope will be much less pronounced in Ulduar than it is in Naxxramas, but it is also much more versatile as it will (assumption, but I think highly likely) work on spells and and also on elemental hits where armor does nothing.

#48 Guest_Aldhissla_*

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:47 PM

--
Warrior (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)
* You now gain rage when damage done to you is absorbed, such as through a Power Word: Shield.
--

With the new Savage Defense I hope that druids get something similar to this where the damage absorbed by SD still gives us rage. Otherwise it will negatively affect us when we overgear an instance such as a normal 5man. I know it's not a huge issue but it was a constant complaint from warriors in BC and something that Blizzard acknowledged as a problem. The one hit removal regardless of damage will mediate this but I do hope that applies to actual hits and not random dot ticks.


I was wondering if anyone else would notice this, I certainly hope the savage defense shield does not reduce rage from incoming attacks. And more generally, why not let both druids and warriors get full rage from all absorb effects? (power word: shield, etc).

#49 Paininabox

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:11 PM

(Resto)
We should get very little loss in our regeneration from these changes as we were not really using the OO5SR that often at all on important encounters. Innervate will suffer to a degree that is based on the reduction on the formula and it might even make the Glyph near required to get a full return of mana from it, but we cannot really say until numbers come out.

The most annoying thing about this change is that it raises the podium on which Int stands while it lords over the ever weakening Spirit stat.

In terms of Regeneration you should end up seeing Int go from 0.57 to around 0.48-0.53~, and Spirit should go from around 0.33 to 0.18-0.23~ but that is subjective on the numbers we see come out on the PTR. MP5 becomes a slightly more valuable stat due to this change but that mostly comes down to the other two stats becoming weaker, Spirit really will suffer from this change which is sad considering it was struggling to keep up with Int at the best of times.


Yes, I too mourn spirit's fall. I wonder how, mathematically, they will perform this nerf. I expect they'll probably slap a scalar on the spirit term in the regen equation, something like:

regen = .005575*5*.8*Spirit*(Intellect)^.5)

I don't really see how else they would do it. Since they will keep the while casting regen the same while buffing Intensity, we can do this:

I(.005575*5*N*Spirit*(Intellect)^.5)=.3(.005575*5*Spirit*(Intellect)^.5)

Most of the equation will cancel, yielding:

I*N=.3

N=.3/I

So the nurf scalar number will equal .3 (the old Intensity) divided by whatever % they choose for the new Intensity. Of course, this is all speculation. I'll have to check it out in the PTR to see how this will go. I don't expect spirit's MRV to drop below the .2's, though.

EDIT:

However, I am thoroughly excited that they're considering changing clearcasting procs to a burst of mana. That would actually make the darn Omen of Clarity talent modelable.
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#50 eaurora

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:14 PM

Another thing that came to mind with the change to the OoC regenaration is Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon will become a lot less effective. While not really required in current content, I was hoping to pair it up with another regen trinket in preparation for Ulduar in case there will be longer or more healing intensive encounters.

#51 Paininabox

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:16 PM

Another thing that came to mind with the change to the OoC regenaration is Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon will become a lot less effective. While not really required in current content, I was hoping to pair it up with another regen trinket in preparation for Ulduar in case there will be longer or more healing intensive encounters.


Yeah, looks like collateral with this nerf. That really bites considering I took a Blue Dragon card in anticipation of having more mana problems come the Ulduar patch.
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#52 RareBeast

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:25 PM

With regard to Savage Defense, in the case of hard hitting bosses like Sarth3D & Patch, the ~1.5k shield is pretty small compared to the size of the hits coming in. In addition to this, our crit rates aren't particularly high and on the big hits you take, you will be taking more damage than currently due to the armor reduction.

It seems that overall we will take a bit less damage (helps healer mana a small amount) but the risk of us dieing in an encounter seems to be higher than we currently have. I hope they look at this talent closely as to me it feels like we may be better off now than with what they are currently suggesting.

#53 Playered

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:27 PM

That is one good thing about this change, people can finally shut up about that damned stupid card because it's bad and needed to die last expansion.

#54 Saeviomagy

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:56 PM

Are we ever in danger of dying to an attack or flurry of attacks that are armor mitigated though? Bear tanks get to levels of health where sarth can't kill them with a triple-drake breath: it would seem that the risk of being insta-gibbed is, at present, effectively nil.

So the issue is that worst-case mitigation goes down, while average mitigation would appear to improve (unless the internal-cooldown gremlin screws up yet another balanced mechanic...). That just means that the stamina soft-cap will go up.

#55 thalys

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 12:03 AM

With regard to Savage Defense, in the case of hard hitting bosses like Sarth3D & Patch, the ~1.5k shield is pretty small compared to the size of the hits coming in. In addition to this, our crit rates aren't particularly high and on the big hits you take, you will be taking more damage than currently due to the armor reduction.

It seems that overall we will take a bit less damage (helps healer mana a small amount) but the risk of us dieing in an encounter seems to be higher than we currently have. I hope they look at this talent closely as to me it feels like we may be better off now than with what they are currently suggesting.

The problem with Sartharion is that during Twilight Torment, you're probably not hitting him. That tends to reduce the likelihood of scoring a crit rather severely.

I would suspect that even on a fast hitting single target like Patchwerk, you'll see higher uptime than you are anticipating because our avoidance, which is pretty damn good, helps prolong the life of the shield.

As with another commenter, I'm somewhat concerned that they won't add rage generation to absorbed damage for us like they are doing to warriors, and that we'll end up rage starving. I'm constantly complaining to priest healers when I do 5-man content to get them to stop shielding me so I can keep my rage up as it is, and this won't help (it makes maul a potentially larger rage sink than it already is, since hitting 2 targets roughly doubles the likelihood of bringing up the shield if it's down.) At a guess though, if they don't do it initially, they'll immediately realize it's not right and fix it--so I'm not genuinely worried, and in fact, I expect that this will make life better in heroics once they get it all worked out.

#56 Thessaly

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 12:56 AM

I was wondering if anyone else would notice this, I certainly hope the savage defense shield does not reduce rage from incoming attacks. And more generally, why not let both druids and warriors get full rage from all absorb effects? (power word: shield, etc).


First, they seem to be struggling with rage generation much more than we do.

Second, by tying it to crit, Primal Fury ensures that any time the shield goes up you get 5 rage.

#57 kalbear

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 01:18 AM

I did some math on what the armor values would need to be . It's a bit rough, but the long and short of it is that if the armor reduction from SotF is on the order of half the bonus, it will be a nerf to bear mitigation against Patchwerk-level bosses (but not a great one). Against more typical bosses it will be an overall wash. Against multiple mobs it will be a very large buff unless the armor bonus from survival of the fittest is actually outright removed.

#58 Moof

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 01:29 AM

Wow, when I read these proposed Savage Defense changes I nearly spat my drink out! As it is exactly the sort of thing that was discussed here pre-wotlk and I actually suggested something near identical:

http://elitistjerks....7-post3674.html

Similarly as was discussed back than, it would need to have stackable charges to be truly worthwhile. Otherwise it could be much harder for us to tank faster hitting bosses, especially those with hard hitting specials. Something like Halaazi from ZA with very fast auto-attacks but a powerful Sabre Lash.

#59 Mijae

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:45 AM

Similarly as was discussed back than, it would need to have stackable charges to be truly worthwhile. Otherwise it could be much harder for us to tank faster hitting bosses, especially those with hard hitting specials. Something like Halaazi from ZA with very fast auto-attacks but a powerful Sabre Lash.


It would actually be completely opposite that. We would need to be critting faster than we are getting hit. A fast hitting boss will easily use up the buff faster than we can stack it.

#60 Monfalaris

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:01 AM

People say, that SD coming along with lower armor modifiers on SotF will be an overall nerf to bear aoe tanking. Let's take a look at this (more napkin math inc):

The difference in dmg reduction is roughly 8% between bears (70%) and warriors or paladins (62%) when it comes to armor mitigation (not sure about dks at the moment). The mob taken from the ThinkTank example deals 10k with a swing timer of 1.5sec. I can't think of an example, where actually 10 mobs need to be tanked at once (maybe utgarde pinnacle or maexxna?), so let's just take this one. We leave out any avoidance, so keep in mind, that 10 hits is already the worst case when tanking 10 mobs at once.

According to the ThinkTank this can be expressed as 1 mob hitting every .15sec. for 10k. With a shield proc occuring every 1.2sec every 8th hit is mitigated by SD's shield. With current numbers, the shield will absorb 1250 dmg. So the mitigation we gain from SD is 1250dmg/1.2sec.
How much do we lose from the loss of armor mitigation?
Blizzard thinks about bringing bear armor in line with the armor other tanks have. So, regardless of the actual numbers, this would require a loss of about 8% mitigation. So lets see what happens, if the lower SotF modifiers result in a 8% mitigation loss (note that at this point I ignore the fact, that this might not even be possible, even if SotF would not give any bonus armor. We will see later on).
Every hit would be mitigated by an additional 8% which is 800 dmg per hit. In 1.2sec. we get 8 hits, so we gain 6400dmg/1.2sec. This is in fact better than SD, but it is also absolutely unrealistic, because we ignored avoidance. Considering avoidance and misses, the benefit of 8% more mitigation from armor is reduced to approximately 3500dmg/1.2sec effective dmg reduction.
So far, armor is still far ahead of SD and this is why people keep saying, that SD is bad for aoe tanking.

What a nerf of SotF is needed to achieve a loss of 8% armor mitigation?
Again, using the ThinkTank numbers 29866 armor results in 64% mitigation. 56% mitigation is reached having 21k armor. This means Blizzard had to reduce the SotF bonus to something like 5/10/15 which is highly unrealistic since this would bring us way below other tanks. It is realistic to drop us to about 25k (60%) which means something like 13/27/40. This is in fact only 4% loss in armor mitigation so the above aoe tanking example would cut the effective dmg reduction to 1/2. 4-5 hits during a 1.2sec. period hitting for 400 less dmg means 1600-2000dmg/1.2sec.

In conclusion, bringing us exactly in line with other tanks armor wise, SD will be a slight nerf when tanking 10(!) mobs at once. We reach a balanced state at roughly 3 hits taken per 1.2sec. (1200 more dmg taken because of 4% less armor mitigation and 1250dmg less dmg taken due to SD's absorb). This is the case while tanking 6 mobs at once (2.88 hits per 1.2sec). So, whenever we tank a total number of 6 mobs or less at once we actually benefit from Savage Defense, even if the bonus of SotF is reduced to bring us exactly in line with warriors and paladins. In other words, unless Blizzard reduces the SotF bonus below 40% at 3/3, SD will be a buff everytime we tank 6 or less mobs at once.

Note: Actually I had this all done earlier, but I didn't have the time to post the results. Then, kalbear came up with his ThinkTank entry and so I decided to change my calculations in a way to reflect his numbers and to prevent reinventing the wheel.




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