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3.1 Upcoming Changes


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#21 McInaction

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 05:46 AM

I guess the change to piercing shot is their 'awesome new way' of countering LOS we were promised way back.

The change I'm wondering about is the beast mastery pet talents, what kind of talents will they implement that will make up hundred of dps?

If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.


#22 Enishi

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 05:51 AM

It seems that we will only need one arrow or bullet in our inventory, similar to a totem for shaman, is what I inferred from that post. Even though it is early, I would suspect that a change to gear having more haste for mail would be a possible idea to make up the haste lost from quiver/ammunition bag haste. It also could be possible that they put the haste on the arrow we have in our inventory.

I thought that the current marksman dps was the benchmark for hunter dps, and changing piercing shots could alter this. Even though aimed shot scales poorly at higher gear levels, this could make it a reliable shot for marksman hunters after patch 3.1. It all depends if the bleeds for steady, aimed, and chimera are separate debuffs. (But that sounds like a significant buff, so I believe it will just be the highest damage shot in your rotation that applies the bleed debuff). The debuff would not get refreshed every steady shot, aimed shot, or chimera shot, because there would be a higher rank bleed already in effect. This is similar thinking to the spell entangling roots which can not be applied at lower damage once a higher rank spell is in effect. I believe this is what they are going for in changing piercing shots, thus the debuff would be allowed to tick, as opposed to previous speculation of every steady shot, aimed shot, and chimera shot refreshing the bleed effect.

#23 Rezdan

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:03 AM

I sincerely doubt that they'll be changing gear to increase their Haste as this would significantly affect Enh Shaman dps in the process.

I too am curious of the effect these changes will have on MM dps and whether or not they're reducing the current over-performing specs. If we see a significant net increase in MM dps it may indicate that they're no longer using MM as the DPS Norm.

In a slight tangent, if the reports of Call of the Wild no longer stacking with TSA and other +10% AP buffs, a re-shuffling of pet points out of Spider's Bite and Call of the Wild could open up the *new pet tier* to non-51pt BM hunters. They would have to make this new tier not signficantly better than Spider's Bite or completely tie it to 51pt BM to prevent other Hunters from picking it up at least partially.

#24 Ketari

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:12 AM

I sincerely doubt that they'll be changing gear to increase their Haste as this would significantly affect Enh Shaman dps in the process.

I too am curious of the effect these changes will have on MM dps and whether or not they're reducing the current over-performing specs. If we see a significant net increase in MM dps it may indicate that they're no longer using MM as the DPS Norm.


Equally, they might not be giving the amo avaliable the same sort of power as the current 15% haste bonus (although it may be more varied), and hence they're taking other measures to boost MM back to its current DPS position. It would also make some haste suck less for BM.

#25 Catalept

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:50 AM

Given that they haven't simply said "We're removing ammo from the game. The DPS boost from ammo will now be incorporated into ranged weapon DPS in a level-appropriate way", it's safe to assume that ammo will now be some kind of totem/relic thing (or possibly just a magic widget that sits in our bags), so I don't see why the haste bonus couldn't be attached directly to it. However, the most interesting possibility with the ammo change is that ammo upgrades could come in the form of (boss) drops, and have additional effects attached to it. I am officially impatient :)

#26 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:56 AM

Having arthas drop an 8th "Undying Bullet of Sindragosa" would be pretty annoying though.

Also if ammo is still split between bullets and arrows, you'd have to match up a new weapon drop with a new ammo drop as well to get full use out of it - best bow in the game, but stuck with a Naxx level arrow since you only got bullets from Ulduar? Sucks to be you.

I suspect that unless they merge ammo types, it'll remain as a vendor item, or possibly a craftable or quest one (token based would work - add in a relic token drop, which each of the relic using classes can use, and hunters can use for an ammo relic).

#27 Rezdan

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:26 AM

Right now, the only real limit on Ammo availability is Reputation. I don't consider crafted/vendor-bought to be a real limit since both are plain buyable. I wouldn't be too keen on Ammo being a drop; it's not based on RNG now, it really shouldn't be in the future. Purchasable from badges may be alright I guess but I'm thinking something along the lines of a Quest to kill XXX Boss in whatever Raid would also be ok.

#28 Ebolt

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:54 AM

Yea, I was thinking what Catalept said. When they said they will "preserve" the 15% haste bonus from quivers, I'm assuming it would be on the bullet/arrow item they give us. Then it would be equipped in the ammo slot. Sounds like the best plan to me. It will be interesting to see the progression of ammo. As to how it would be attained, they will probably do what they always do, reputation.

I love the sniper training change. Range checking was annoying.

New mortal shots sounds very interesting. I think it would make marks the new DPS spec, seeing as explosive shot doesn't benefit from it. Saw some ballparking earlier, 30% damage + 30% mangle buff + 10k chimera shot = ~4.5k damage over 8 seconds, and I'd imagine it working like deep wounds so stacking would become crazy. I have a feeling it will be changed and tweaked many times on the PTR, then nerfed when it goes live.

Slightly uninterested in the BM changes, still doesn't seem appealing. But I dislike BM in general.

As for trap functionality, chuckable Immo traps anyone?

#29 Sylvand

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:04 AM

I think in a similar fashion to how thrown weapons are now, ammo may just be a drop from lesser bosses (e.g. not KT, Malygos or +2/3 drakes). It had occurred to me that they might try to make the ammo a shareable item by putting stats on it, but then we'd have to start worrying about warriors/rogues rolling on both the ammo and ranged weapons for the stats. So if they did that they'd have to buff thrown items accordingly (or something like that).

Reputation is also an interesting possiblity, like the mysterious and timeless ammo.

But one of the more interesting questions for me is how will durability work? Will ammo have it like thrown weapons, or will I be able to freely farm/PvP with the best ammo available?

#30 Valinnor

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:30 AM

Also from the changes to FF and Sunder armor I think they'll probably change Acid spit, Spore Cloud, and Sting, to a % armor decrease instead of the static decreases that they are now. I'm not quite sure if this changes the power of those pets greatly, but it would certainly be different.

#31 Feanoro

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:00 AM

Piercing Shots almost has to work like Deep Wounds, given Blizzard's tendency to reuse ideas, and the fact that the talent was changed from ArP makes me wonder if the supposed Potency stat (combination of current haste and ArP) in the "3.1 patch notes" might be possible. If so, it'd be well worth getting haste capped again. :)

#32 seridosgunner

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:55 AM

It will be such a relief to not need to farm mats for arrows/bullets every raid. I also like the sniper training change, it means I can safely use it without worry that I'll be out of range of 30yd buffs.


so maybe i am misunderstanding this. is blizzard going to take away the range for sniper training? meaning if i stand still for 6 sec at 10 yards it will produce the buff from sniper training? if not then im seriously thinking about dropping tht talent for another .also as with the ammo does that mean that they will give us a flat rate ammo buff?

#33 Gleithan

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 11:57 AM

Yea, I was thinking what Catalept said. When they said they will "preserve" the 15% haste bonus from quivers, I'm assuming it would be on the bullet/arrow item they give us. Then it would be equipped in the ammo slot. Sounds like the best plan to me. It will be interesting to see the progression of ammo. As to how it would be attained, they will probably do what they always do, reputation.


I'm thinking that maybe only one type of ammo will provide the haste bonus, and that we might see a slowing arrow/shot, maybe a fire arrow, etc. That way you would lose the haste if you chose another ammo type, but you would get another bonus (for PvP, high armor targets or whatever). This is just based on the icons that MMO-Champion put up a while back. I don't think we will start seeing things like +agility on bullets. But however the system changes, I do wonder if ammo with more specialized effects will be restricted to hunters. A rogue or warrior with a slowing shot could be annoying.

#34 jpwkeeper

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 12:28 PM

What they SHOULD do with quivers is just turn them into 20 and 22 slot bags, so leatherworking will have a way to produce bags as well. The mats for the 28 slot quivers aren't really any less difficult to farm than those for the 20 slot frostweave bag.

#35 Tolmandary

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 12:29 PM

so maybe i am misunderstanding this. is blizzard going to take away the range for sniper training? meaning if i stand still for 6 sec at 10 yards it will produce the buff from sniper training? if not then im seriously thinking about dropping tht talent for another .also as with the ammo does that mean that they will give us a flat rate ammo buff?


You're absolutely spot on. The 30+ range limitation for ST will be removed and as stated replaced with an effect that only comes into use after standing still for 6+ seconds.

#36 Lokk

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 02:00 PM

I'm thinking that maybe only one type of ammo will provide the haste bonus, and that we might see a slowing arrow/shot, maybe a fire arrow, etc. That way you would lose the haste if you chose another ammo type, but you would get another bonus (for PvP, high armour targets or whatever). This is just based on the icons that MMO-Champion put up a while back. I don't think we will start seeing things like +agility on bullets. But however the system changes, I do wonder if ammo with more specialized effects will be restricted to hunters. A rogue or warrior with a slowing shot could be annoying.



I don't think that would be such a good idea and thus it is doubtful Blizzard will implement it. It brings a lot of balancing issues like switching different ammo type for different shots. (In BC there were macros that let you use level 1 ammo for steady shot). And that king micromanagement is frowned upon, by both Blizzard and players

I pretty much expect something more in line of throwing weapons, where we equip one ammo item with durability that slowly decreases when we fire shots and can be repaired. Additionally that ammo item be upgraded by purchasing a better one from rep vendors and can be crafted by engineers. This will work well also for warriors as they'll have fewer things to manage.

Warlocks are still keeping their shards so I doubt we'll get free ammo. But one of the concerns was that we are still the only class that pays to PvP (yes, party buffs require reagents as well). So additionally we can see arena-sanctioned ammo, bought when you reach a high arena rank. Or lower quality PvP ammo that doesn't have durability.


As for the other changes I'm really excited in the next tier pet talents. For the ferocity pets it will certainly be the expected DPS buff. But maybe we can see something more interesting for the cunning and tenacity pets?
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#37 sunsmoon

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 02:38 PM

On the topic of the ammunition changes, another option would be having our weapons conjure ammo, similar to both Thori'dal and Netherstrand Longbow. That would reduce the need for both arrow and bullet upgrades from each reputation linked to a raid (and possibly even the need for said reputations) and there would be no RNG issues aside from the weapon drop itself. Get the weapon, it conjures a bundle of equal-level ammunition, then have at it.

#38 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:13 PM

On the topic of the ammunition changes, another option would be having our weapons conjure ammo, similar to both Thori'dal and Netherstrand Longbow. That would reduce the need for both arrow and bullet upgrades from each reputation linked to a raid (and possibly even the need for said reputations) and there would be no RNG issues aside from the weapon drop itself. Get the weapon, it conjures a bundle of equal-level ammunition, then have at it.


At that point I'm not sure what the point of having ammo would be at all, since you'd almost certainly always be using the ammo conjured by the weapon you're using, so it's rolled into weapon DPS.

As for ammo working off durability like thrown weapons, this brings up another question: how much durability?

Thrown weapons currently have 200 dura, and seem to lose 1 dura per throw. If ammo worked like that, each ammo "relic" would need 5600 durability to match a 28 slot quiver of arrows.

Now... what happens when you die? Do you lose 560 durability from your 5600 durability ammo item? Do thrown weapons currently lose durability from death, or just from use? On a 200 dura item only used by melee classes for stats or the occasional attack it doesn't really matter if they take damage from death, but on a hunter it would mean:

- losing 10+% of your ammo per death
- repair bills going through the roof

#39 Ebolt

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:18 PM

At that point I'm not sure what the point of having ammo would be at all, since you'd almost certainly always be using the ammo conjured by the weapon you're using, so it's rolled into weapon DPS.

As for ammo working off durability like thrown weapons, this brings up another question: how much durability?

Thrown weapons currently have 200 dura, and seem to lose 1 dura per throw. If ammo worked like that, each ammo "relic" would need 5600 durability to match a 28 slot quiver of arrows.

Now... what happens when you die? Do you lose 560 durability from your 5600 durability ammo item? Do thrown weapons currently lose durability from death, or just from use? On a 200 dura item only used by melee classes for stats or the occasional attack it doesn't really matter if they take damage from death, but on a hunter it would mean:

- losing 10+% of your ammo per death
- repair bills going through the roof


That pretty much kills the point of getting rid of ammo in the first place.

Though I'd love to see how much it would cost to repair 5600 dura.

#40 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:24 PM

That pretty much kills the point of getting rid of ammo in the first place.

Though I'd love to see how much it would cost to repair 5600 dura.


Well, no, the point of getting rid of ammo isn't necessarily to save hunters money, I think it's to:

- save hunters the hassle of buying and carrying 25-35 stacks of consumables
- save the server having to manage an extra 6000 items on each hunter being bought, carried, moved and destroyed

If those 2 are achieved, I don't think blizzard would care about whether hunters are still spending 100g a night on repairing their ammo instead of spam-clicking it off a vendor




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