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3.1 Upcoming Changes


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#41 Daemous

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:25 PM

These are broad strokes.

+ Ammo seems like marketing and the design team throwing us a bone.
+ The bleed effect for MM is hopeful.
+ The change to sniper seems to indicate:
- Limited use in PvP
- Reduce trap-dancing except when you have perfect position (i.e.- can trap without moving)
- Let you receive melee aura buffs easier (i.e.- boss at 31 yards, but feral at less than 30 yards)
- It "feels right" for "Sniper Training" which is something Blizz always shoots for. Then again, they've tried to make it work with Steady Shot and Aimed Shot before.
+ BM gets to dps a little more, but not through collaboration with their hunter's talents.

That said, I'm sure they'll screw around with almost every talent, talent location, and spell coefficient. And ammo damage is in every formula.

#42 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:32 PM

I suspect there will be a few nerfs thrown in too (not just for hunters of course, there's just not much for them to gain by listing potential nerfs along with the potential buffs/changes right now).

I wonder if there's any hope of PTR feedback to convince them to make the new Sniper Training a stacking buff, so 2% after 2 seconds of motionlessness, 4% after 4, and finally 6% after 6 - that'd alleviate the penalty on movement heavy fights a bit.

Also, if Ulduar features a lot of Mechanical mobs, that's a straight 3-5% DPS reduction to SV and MM specs from the loss of Imp Tracking, I hope they'd consider that when rebalancing 3.1 dps based on pre-3.1 testing.

#43 Cotar

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:34 PM

I too am curious of the effect these changes will have on MM dps and whether or not they're reducing the current over-performing specs. If we see a significant net increase in MM dps it may indicate that they're no longer using MM as the DPS Norm.


I have to wonder if the Piercing Shots will really buff the tree. I mean, no one really takes it now, so you'd have to juggle points elsewhere to get it. Obviously we don't have the math, but I'm not sure this would be a huge boost to MM DPS. Just means we have more choices to make in the tree. BM is getting a buff in the 51 point talent, so that could bring up the DPS to MM level. Survival may have gotten a stealth nerf in the form of Sniper Trainer if Ulduar has a lot of moving fights. So these announcements may bring the trees closer together damage-wise.

/shrug

#44 Bonestorm

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:40 PM

Would be easier for blizz just to give the quiver speed bonus as a passive ability to hunter, rather than add it to all ammo or ranged weapons.

#45 Handa

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 03:58 PM

They need to take sniper training down to atleast 3 seconds in my opinion.

Unless they are gonna make every fight a patchwerk, in that case it's fine. If you check say sartharion 3 drakes you don't stand still for more than 10 seconds (rough estimate) at a time, so that only gives 4 seconds for that bonus to apply, which will be quiet bad.

#46 RobotChicken

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:00 PM

Would be easier for blizz just to give the quiver speed bonus as a passive ability to hunter, rather than add it to all ammo or ranged weapons.


The problem with this is that different quivers give different speeds, though this is really only an issue while levelling up. This would have to scale with level if this was the case, and I can't think of any other passive ability that does that without having to train it.

#47 Esoth

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:03 PM

For a really early look at what piercing shots would be like (I can't imagine those numbers NOT being tweaked) I took a look at a WWS from a couple of weeks ago when I was MM. Chimera+Aimed+Steady did about 27% of my damage, not including the serpent sting effect of Chimera. If we get 30% of that, that's almost a 7% damage boost from three talents. This is more than twice the general rule of 1% dps per talent point and way ahead of ISS or Wild Quiver (this talent name makes me laugh with the proposed quiver changes :P).

I also wanted to take a look at armor penetration, with the sunder armor changes. The spreadsheet has it for me as 0.465 as survival with BiS gear. The boss had 33.14% reduction from armor. I took out sunder armor from the debuffs, put 20% pen in the hand adjust field (308 rating), and adjusted the boss stats to get back to 33.14% (11250 armor, down from 13083). This brought the value of armor pen up to 0.786. Does this method seem flawed to anyone? My initial guess was that ArP value would go up but only by a little since aimed/auto/steady make up maybe 40% of MM/SV damage, but this is a substantial jump.
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#48 Wolfetones

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:17 PM

Some nice changes here, albeit with some confusion. I'm liking the sniper training improvement but that MM buff is also looking nice. I wonder how much of a dps increase BM hunters will get because its interesting the way pets were nerfed in 3.08 and seem to be gettin buffed again in 3.1. I have never really looked into trap dancing but this sniper trainig change is forcing me away from it more i think.

#49 Bonestorm

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:27 PM

The problem with this is that different quivers give different speeds, though this is really only an issue while levelling up. This would have to scale with level if this was the case, and I can't think of any other passive ability that does that without having to train it.


Why not just give the full 15% right from level 1? I mean really you're only talking about 1-5% haste on auto-shots, which isn't much of a buff for leveling or pvp. By the time you can train steady shot, you already have access to 14% quivers, and 15% ones at 55/60.

If they were concerned about that 1-5% haste at low levels, they could just add trainable ranks, or just make them passively learned like gathering profession abilities or pet skills. Either way, it makes more sense than adding haste to every piece of ammo ever.

#50 Selmarix

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:45 PM

Some nice changes here, albeit with some confusion. I'm liking the sniper training improvement but that MM buff is also looking nice. I wonder how much of a dps increase BM hunters will get because its interesting the way pets were nerfed in 3.08 and seem to be gettin buffed again in 3.1. I have never really looked into trap dancing but this sniper trainig change is forcing me away from it more i think.

I don't quite get why that change would force you away from trap dancing. Right now sniper training does nothing if you trap dance but with the change you will profit from it about 2/3 of the time. So if anything that change makes trap dancing more viable, not less.

#51 Mr.Tusks

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:51 PM

Considering the images that Blizzard had released a while ago and the comment that Feanoro made on the new stat, Potency, i would hope that some of the new ammo gives us a magical effect and that instead of combining haste and ArP, the new stat would be a combination of ArP and Spell pen. that would make a bit more sense and would help us with shots that are currently being partially resisted, Ex: Chimera, Explosive, Arcane, Etc..

#52 Berfert

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 04:53 PM

For a really early look at what piercing shots would be like (I can't imagine those numbers NOT being tweaked) I took a look at a WWS from a couple of weeks ago when I was MM. Chimera+Aimed+Steady did about 27% of my damage, not including the serpent sting effect of Chimera. If we get 30% of that, that's almost a 7% damage boost from three talents. This is more than twice the general rule of 1% dps per talent point and way ahead of ISS or Wild Quiver (this talent name makes me laugh with the proposed quiver changes :P).


If
  • the dot doesn't stack but is, rather, refreshed each time one of those shots hits, and
  • it's damage is changed to the most recent shot that applied it
then it shouldn't do too much damage. Looking at a MM guildmate's WWS, I see Steady averages 1288 per hit for him, which means most of the dots would do 429 over 8 seconds, so 53.5dps? Bump that up a bit because ~20% of the ticks would be based off Aimed damage, and ~20% off Chimera... but it still doesn't come out to a large amount.

#53 Gorah

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 05:12 PM

If

  • the dot doesn't stack but is, rather, refreshed each time one of those shots hits, and
  • it's damage is changed to the most recent shot that applied it
then it shouldn't do too much damage. Looking at a MM guildmate's WWS, I see Steady averages 1288 per hit for him, which means most of the dots would do 429 over 8 seconds, so 53.5dps? Bump that up a bit because ~20% of the ticks would be based off Aimed damage, and ~20% off Chimera... but it still doesn't come out to a large amount.


It's not correct - not getting into stacking or not discussion, you've based your calculation on noncrit damage of the weakest shot of three. Steady shot crit already more than doubles your bleed damage value (and by thus current dps contribution).

#54 Berfert

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 05:20 PM

It's not correct - not getting into stacking or not discussion, you've based your calculation on noncrit damage of the weakest shot of three. Steady shot crit already more than doubles your bleed damage value (and by thus current dps contribution).


So bump of the steady damage by 50%... you're still looking at ~80dps for the 3 talent points, and then you need to add in the difference due to CS/AS. At his Patch dps of 4144, it would need to add 124.32dps before it moves over the 1% per talent point mark. It just doesn't look that unbalanced to me.

#55 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 05:25 PM

So bump of the steady damage by 50%... you're still looking at ~80dps for the 3 talent points, and then you need to add in the difference due to CS/AS. At his Patch dps of 4144, it would need to add 124.32dps before it moves over the 1% per talent point mark. It just doesn't look that unbalanced to me.


I believe Deep Wounds and Ignite currently do a weird "rolling sum" type thing where each refresh it adds the extra damage it's supposed to do to the remaining damage left to do from past refreshes, and recalculates the size of the remaining ticks - there's no reason to suppose Piercing Shots won't do the same, making it better than the above analysis, since you won't ever lose a previous refreshes damage with a newer refresh.

However I suspect it's going to be something like "on crit", since otherwise it'd be a straight 30% increase in special shot damage, which seems a bit much.

#56 grim4o4

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 05:36 PM

Just a couple things I'd like to correct about some of the incorrect statements in the way thrown weaps and imp tracking works. Thrown weapons only lose durability when you use them, not when you die. Also, I believe they recently changed imp tracking in 3.0.8 to in buff damage vs a mob you are attacking as long as you are hunter tracking something(as to discount minerals, herbs, etc.)

#57 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 05:38 PM

Just a couple things I'd like to correct about some of the incorrect statements in the way thrown weaps and imp tracking works. Thrown weapons only lose durability when you use them, not when you die. Also, I believe they recently changed imp tracking in 3.0.8 to in buff damage vs a mob you are attacking as long as you are hunter tracking something(as to discount minerals, herbs, etc.)


Good to know about durability on thrown weapons, but the Imp Tracking change still doesn't help against untrackable mobs - you only get the bonus against the 7 trackable mob types.

And against them I don't think it's just "hunter tracking something" either, since the tooltip doesn't include Track Hidden.

#58 Cobrakai

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:06 PM

The change to piercing shots makes MM look even more like the Arms tree, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. What I expect is that the stated 30 percent bleed will get tuned down to something closer to what Deep Wound's coefficient is, as it just seems way too powerful in the way GC stated. I am interested to see how the changes to armor will affect which stats become most valuable in buffing this talent (AP v. ArP).

As for ammo - hallelujah! My guess is if the haste bonus isn't granted on the ammo (which, I doubt it will be somehow) hunters will just be granted a passive 15 % haste buff as a function of the class (much in the way Paladins get their mana back upon receiving heals and Death Knights do extra damage on spell crits.)

Got to say when I posted the Sniper Training change in guild chat, most every non hunter laughed. While I for one welcome the change, we'll see how relevant it becomes in Ulduar.

They've only mentioned buffs to classes, so I expect the nerfs will be in a future post ... I wonder if, with the change to sniper training, and the stated changes to trap functionality, they will be placing frost trap back on the ICD ... time will tell.

#59 RobotChicken

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:07 PM

Good to know about durability on thrown weapons, but the Imp Tracking change still doesn't help against untrackable mobs - you only get the bonus against the 7 trackable mob types.

And against them I don't think it's just "hunter tracking something" either, since the tooltip doesn't include Track Hidden.


Was this confirmed anywhere? I was under the impression that it was indeed only on the 7 trackable mob types but now I'm curious. You made a good point that if even some of the mobs in Ulduar are mechanical, that's just 5% of your damage flushed down the toilet. And that's discounting any other debuffs that mechanical mobs are immune to, which I suspect would result in an even higher DPS loss.

#60 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:19 PM

Immunity to bleeds and poisons/stings would be hilariously bad, but I doubt they'd go back to that silliness again, except maybe for 1 token annoying boss.




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