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Demonic Pact and rDPS vs Personal DPS


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#41 TheRabidSniper

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 04:48 PM

On PTR. I haven't run with DP on Live in a few months, so I'm not sure what it's like on Live currently.

#42 TheRabidSniper

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 04:58 PM

Just checked the official PTR forums. There are a few threads floating around about DP; none with blue responses. The most recent one, the last post has a Ele shammy saying he loses about 500 personal DPS by not dropping a fire DPS totem; I think I'd take that number with a grain of salt, but still...

#43 Woonz

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 08:55 PM

The most recent one, the last post has a Ele shammy saying he loses about 500 personal DPS by not dropping a fire DPS totem; I think I'd take that number with a grain of salt, but still...

Why is he not still dropping his totem? Like I've said before, DP is NOT a replacement for the Elemental Sham's totem, but rather a bonus. With movement, pet micro-management, RNG and other random factors he is doing a huge disservice to his raid even if you have a DP lock.

#44 TheRabidSniper

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 09:27 PM

I assume because ToW is a fire totem, and therefore he can't drop a fire DPS totem? =o

Maybe I don't understand your point. =x

#45 Woonz

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 10:00 PM

I assume because ToW is a fire totem, and therefore he can't drop a fire DPS totem? =o

Maybe I don't understand your point. =x


Sorry, you busted me trying to get my thought out to quickly.

What I mean is....Shamen should still be dropping SP totem. I tossed in Elemental in there in the heat of thought. I think I've been doing that in a few posts actually. Must the the interrelation of Elemental Shamen and DPS. Anyway, thanks for making me aware and I will now be more conscious of my wording.

#46 Morrigan

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 02:03 AM

Demonic Pact does NOT calculate buff based on current Spellpower

It *used* to, but does not now, on the current PTR build.
NONE of the following are taken into account:

  • iCD-based Trinket procs (tested with both Sundial of the Exiled and Forge Ember)
  • Use-based Trinket procs (tested with Mark of the War Prisoner)


You must be mistaken, I just tried to confirm this but it isn't true. It still takes trinket spell power procs/uses into account (I'm not a tailor so I can't test the cloak enchant though).

#47 TheRabidSniper

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 04:37 PM

Are you certain? I tested this, letting them proc, then watching the numbers after my Felguard crit, comparing them and figuring out how much Spellpower Demonic Pact was giving me. It was always 207. I thought at one point I had gotten 208, but I wasn't sure if I had written down incorrect values.

I'll have to get back on the PTR later tonight...

#48 TheRabidSniper

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 04:55 PM

Screw it, testing it now... still have an hour before I have to be in to work...


Fel Armor only, sitting at 2100 SP.
Summon Felguard, Demonic Knowledge goes live: 2298
Let him crit: 2505 (difference 207)

Spam-cast Searing Pain 'til Lightweave goes live: 2755
He crits again while DP and Lightweave are up: 2780 (difference 232)
So it is taking into account Lightweave right now. I wonder if they hotfixed it, server-side?

Checking other buffs..
4pT7: 2415
Felguard crits: 2622 (difference 207)
Confirmation that SPI-based portion of Fel Armor is not being taken into account.

Popping Mark of the War Prisoner: 2649
Felguard crits: 2886 (difference 237)
Thank goodness, it is taking into account trinkets and procs.

Life Tap glyph: 2524
Felguard crits: 2731 (difference 207)
So the SP gain from Glyph of Life Tap doesn't count... which seems odd.


All buffs on, Felguard crits: 3624 (difference 387)
So it's not as bad as I figured, though the Glyph of Life Tap seems much less enticing, at least at the moment.


Edit: forgot about the Sundial of the Exiled..
Spam Searing Pain 'til it goes live: 2888
Felguard crits: 3154 (difference 266)

#49 Guest_AgulaDX_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 04:29 PM

Thanks for this thread, answered a ton of questions.

#50 Morrigan

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 09:45 PM

They finally changed something in build 9722:
Demonic Pact now scales with Spirit through Fel Armor, but only with the base 30% of it, even if specced for Demonic Aegis (should be 39%).

Glyph of Life Tap still doesn't work, though.

#51 Draakzull

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 07:48 AM

They finally changed something in build 9722:
Demonic Pact now scales with Spirit through Fel Armor, but only with the base 30% of it, even if specced for Demonic Aegis (should be 39%).

Glyph of Life Tap still doesn't work, though.


It finally works with fel armor.

Do you think a raid will be able to be optimal without the DP 300+ spell power for (minimum) the 6/8 dps casters and other spell users? I Would like to compare, IG, a 25m raid dps with / without...

#52 Warlocomotif

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 04:51 PM

Just checked the official PTR forums. There are a few threads floating around about DP; none with blue responses. The most recent one, the last post has a Ele shammy saying he loses about 500 personal DPS by not dropping a fire DPS totem; I think I'd take that number with a grain of salt, but still...



Ele shammy totems:
Searing: 400 DPS
Fire Elemental: 900 DPS

If anyone really thinks that still using totem of wrath just because there's 10% downtime on demonic pact is best for raid dps- well quite frankly it's just silly. If there is a particular fight where demonic pact is going to have low uptime, then simply use ToW and use whichever dual spec you have. Using both just because demonic pact doesn't work for some fight is silly.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

#53 supplicium

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:12 PM

Ok, So here is what I've been trying to figure out.

If you bring a warlock to raid at what point will the increase in the spellpower given to all members of the raid match dps lost from loosing the top dps caster in the raid.

That is to say if the sims are to be believed (and we have no reason or reference not to) assuming that he would be doing the 6900 dps as possible and the DP warlock would be doing 6400 thats a loss of 500 dps. At what point in increased spelldamage would we make up 500 dps across the raid assuming you have an elemental shaman allready available?

Assuming the average raid brings say 8 dps casters, if each one scales 1 dps per spelldmage than we would need to generate an addition 62.5 average spelldamage (note average not actual do to the fact that up time is not 100%) to increase the over all raid dps to the point at which we lost dps.

The average+dmg scale factor from sim craft for all casters (excluding enh shaman) is 1.45 which would yield an average of 43.1 spelldamage to increase raid dps to compensate for loosing our personal dps. In other words On top of this chart

UP Time | Spell Power
90% | 3111
86.2% *| 3249
85% | 3295
80% | 3500
75% | 3734
65% | 4320
50% | 5600


We would need to add an additional 431 spellpower to each number. This would give you:

UP Time | Spell Power
90% | 3542
86.2% *| 3680
85% | 3726
80% | 3931
75% | 4165
65% | 4751
50% | 6031


Edit

This was all done assuming 2 things one of which is a falsity and that is 1 you have an elemental shaman, and 2 is that your elemental shaman doesn't switch totems. Assuming the shaman gains 400 dps from a searing totem instead then there is a mere 100 dps difference that we may need to overcome (this is at current naxx gear levels and may change later) but as such we only need 8.6 spelldamage per person and there by must achieve a mere 86 spelldamage to over come the deficite

which yields this table:

UP Time | Spell Power
90% | 3197
86.2% *| 3335
85% | 3381
80% | 3586
75% | 3820
65% | 4406
50% | 5686

The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.


#54 angaroth

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:42 PM

<snip>the DP warlock would be doing 6400 thats a loss of 500 dps.
<snip>
Assuming the average raid brings say 8 dps casters
<snip>
The average+dmg scale factor from sim craft for all casters (excluding enh shaman) is 1.45 which would yield an average of 43.1
<snip>
We would need to add an additional 431 spellpower to each number
<snip>


I am apparently failing at math or something. You say 8 dps casters (of which the Demo lock is one) and then multiply by 10? And why ignore the hps of the healers? Because it is harder to model?

#55 supplicium

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:44 PM

I am apparently failing at math or something. You say 8 dps casters (of which the Demo lock is one) and then multiply by 10? And why ignore the hps of the healers? Because it is harder to model?


The multiply by 10 is to scale the +dmg needed for each caster to = our loss in dps x10 to get the number of our personal spellpower to increase demonic pact to that number.

The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.


#56 angaroth

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:10 PM

Nope. Still don't get it.

500 dps loss / 1.45 to convert to spell power is 344. Divide by 8 for the casters is 43. (.1 ... repeater of course ). So DP in an 8 dps caster (ignoring healers) raid needs to average +323 SP from 3231 SP lock spell power at 100% uptime to equal ToW and cover the -500.

3590 at 90%
3800 at 85%

But that doesn't include the 3% crit, so we need to add math for that. And the real (modeled?) DPS loss for ToW.

#57 supplicium

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:44 PM

Nope. Still don't get it.

500 dps loss / 1.45 to convert to spell power is 344. Divide by 8 for the casters is 43. (.1 ... repeater of course ). So DP in an 8 dps caster (ignoring healers) raid needs to average +323 SP from 3231 SP lock spell power at 100% uptime to equal ToW and cover the -500.

3590 at 90%
3800 at 85%

But that doesn't include the 3% crit, so we need to add math for that. And the real (modeled?) DPS loss for ToW.



Your coming at it wrong

you have 500dps devided by 8 casters. or 62.5/ 1.45 to convert to the average spell damge coefficient of 43.1 spell power increase for each caster to reach that level.

In order for Us, the warlock to reach that number we have to hit the 280 average spelldamage mark of the totem + an adition 43.1 spelldamge from demonic pact. In order to hit that number demonic pact is 10% of our total spelldamge (minus the 9% extra from demonic aegis in this current patch) so you multiply 43.1*10 to get the total damange to add to the base demonic pact damage to break even and at that point you get 431+ spelldamage to hit average of 280 (refer to first chart for that number)

The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.


#58 Natasmai

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:57 PM

the 3% crit gain is for ALL DPS including melee, so calculate what every class can lose if they have 3% less crit and add all that up as well. Now it gets complicated because each class scales crit differently and who knows what the group make up will be. Additionally, there is talk about Blizzard adding a personal DPS increase to the shaman from the totem to compensate for the "loss" of the searing totem which would make the whole discussion a moot point.

Also, Angaroth brings up another good point, does DP increase the output of healers? ToW definately does and I know for instance that our fel armor does not buff our "healing power" on our character sheets. So what does DP effect? And how to you put a theoretical DPS value to the healers being more effective with their heals and more efficient with their mana?

I feel, at best, until we are fully geared in Ulduar B.I.S. gear, we won't honestly be able to see a use for DP over ToW. If at all.

#59 supplicium

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 08:02 PM

Natasmai you are forgetting, Ret pallies bring the same ability, but it's only single target, so in most situations it's fine but in aoe fights you do lose something or another. But in this situation we aren't factoring that in we are just looking at the +dmg.

The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.


#60 Evyle

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 08:09 PM

Nope. Still don't get it.


But that doesn't include the 3% crit, so we need to add math for that. And the real (modeled?) DPS loss for ToW.


Ok for the 3% crit I think that can be covered by other classes. Ret pallies have Heart of the crusader and Rogues have master poisoner. Out of those two I don't think the rogues often take the master poisoner talent but I think the ret pally one is fairly standard.

A good place to see what stacks or does not stack for talents is at MMO-Champion RaidComp

I would love to see things pan out this way where a deep tree talent becomes useful.




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