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Discipline priest raiding compendium


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#21 Pellanor

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 06:14 PM

I'd like to suggest putting Darkmoon Card: Greatness on the trinket list. Quick comparision between it and Soul of the Dead.
Base Stats
DC:G, 90 int
SotD: 95 crit rating
This is a simple tradeoff between throughput and regen.
Proc
DC:G Provide ~120MP5 on the proc, as well as a small crit boost for the duration (see my other post for maths)
SotD restores 900 mana every 45 seconds in the best case scenario, which is 100 MP5.
Crit Chance:
DC:G, (90int + 300int*30% uptime)*125%(Kings+Mental Strength) = ~225 Int = 1.35 crit%.
SotD, 95 crit rating = 2.07 crit%, which suffers from diminishing returns.
Overall Difference:
DC:G, +1687 Mana, +20 or more MP5
Sotd, +0.72 or less crit%.

edit: looks like I got beat to the suggestion...

#22 Rassia

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 07:42 PM

I wanted to add two things to this great thread.

1.) When we're talking about 30% crit, etc we're talking 'with raid buffs' right? And that's not counting the extra crit we get from targets having weakened soul, right? It's probably obvious, but I wanted to make sure the terms of the discussion were set early.

2.) Personally, I had a problem as Disc with a lot of my heals getting sniped by CoH/Druid HoTs/etc. So I started stacking a lot of haste so that my reaction time was improved. According to recount, on instructor razuvious I was pushing 4000 hps at my peak when I was healing up the Mind Control NPCs on that fight.

Since we get a crit bonus off targets with weakened soul, why is crit so important to us? Wouldn't haste or spellpower be a much more efficient way of going about it for throughput??

Again this is hard to math out since heal meters suck in general.

On a side note, why does everyone insist on speccing into Inner Focus? Our regen is mostly via our talents, we don't dip 005SR very often.. Personally I have both points in Imp DS just to help raid DPS a bit.

#23 denandra

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 08:29 PM

I wanted to add two things to this great thread.

1.) When we're talking about 30% crit, etc we're talking 'with raid buffs' right? And that's not counting the extra crit we get from targets having weakened soul, right? It's probably obvious, but I wanted to make sure the terms of the discussion were set early.

2.) Personally, I had a problem as Disc with a lot of my heals getting sniped by CoH/Druid HoTs/etc. So I started stacking a lot of haste so that my reaction time was improved. According to recount, on instructor razuvious I was pushing 4000 hps at my peak when I was healing up the Mind Control NPCs on that fight.

Since we get a crit bonus off targets with weakened soul, why is crit so important to us? Wouldn't haste or spellpower be a much more efficient way of going about it for throughput??

Again this is hard to math out since heal meters suck in general.

On a side note, why does everyone insist on speccing into Inner Focus? Our regen is mostly via our talents, we don't dip 005SR very often.. Personally I have both points in Imp DS just to help raid DPS a bit.


1. I'm by no means expert or have done the math myself. But the benefits of crit when you have specced Divine Aegis and Inspiration should be pretty obvious, as should the reason you can have to much. If you crit again before your divine aegis is used up or inspiration expires then each critpoint start to be worth less.

2. Are you talking about raidhealing? If so ofcourse we are not the best spec to do that.

Haste is nice but rarely needed on tankhealing since you are usually spamming/stopcasting anyway. Inner focus is very good for prayer of healing(25% extra crit) and if you do have a Shaman that gives spellpowertotem, then theres really no other place to put that point that is good enough.

#24 TheDoctor

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 09:52 PM

First of thanks for starting this thread. Though the lacking math is a problem in my opinion. The Holy priests thread has a portion of the math that applies to Discipline, however if this is going to be a thorough discussion and centralized location it should have all pertinent information.

Weaknesses of a discipline priest

The main weakness of a discipline priest is that he will always be very ineffective at AoE healing. This is because Prayer of Healing is currently party only (this is however changing in patch 3.1). Because of this, raidhealing should usually be taken care of by holy priests, druids or shamans rather then a discipline priest.


This should be a discussion not an initial claim. Holy can cast 1 CoH on a 6 sec CD which from my experience doesn't provide signification advantage over what a skilled Disc priest can manage using PW:S -> Borrowed Time hasted Flashes. I will grant that Holy is better but I don't find it to be "much" better, and Disc surely is not "very ineffective". If you base it on AoE healing then Holy and Disc are both considered ineffective as AoE healers as Holy's only real AoE raid heal is on a 6sec CD and Disc has none. Though I think you intended to discuss it as "Raid Healing".

I find that the trade off is Disc/Holy cast the same number of Flash heals for raid healing with Disc's being on average weaker. Both keep PoM bouncing. Disc replaces 1 Flash with a Penance which is a) about the healing of Gheal in the time of flash B) can be mana free and c) triple stacks grace on 1 target. Then the comparison is 2 PW:S in the 6 second window vs. 1 CoH. CoH touchs more targets for topping up however PW:S is more valuable to 2 targets that will continue taking damage.

The 3.1 PoH change is going to significantly level the playing field so long as the healing buff to CoH isn't extremely high. While Holy's PoH will be stronger and cheaper, Discs will be faster to cast (DA procs will provide some mana return based on crit rate and the shield effective use). Disc will also be getting some sort of multi-target PW:S that we know little about thus far. Another benefit to Disc with the PoH change, though it may well be a bug that will get repaired at some point, it that the hot from Glyph of PoH re-applies grace which is great for keeping a 3 stack on a large number of people.

Stat focus
Which stats you focus depend greatly on your current gear, it is usually considered sub-par to stack more then 30% crit, it is also not optimal to get much more then 23k mana. At that point, more throughput should be stacked in the form of Spellpower and haste rating. Please note that even if you don't have 23k mana or 30% crit already, spellpower is always a very important stat you should not neglect at any time.


What leads you to believe that more than 23k mana is non-optimal? Increasing mana pool yields the best regen increase for Disc currently. Larger mana pool > rapture returns > mana fiend returns > replenishment returns. 25k mana vs. 23k mana on a 3 minute fight is the equivalent of, 2000/(3*60/5) = 55.6 mp5 over the fight just account for the difference in mana pool and not any of the other benefits.

Crit has value from a mana return and throughput perspective though to what extent is not sufficiently modeled. Crit heals that are effective increase the mana return from rapture, this is more significant for Flash than Greater Heal due to greater more likely being at/near the 11460 healing mark on non-crits. Conversely, Crits impact to Greater Heal DA's is larger though greater heal is used less. Back to back crits have less value because a non-consumed DA has no value for both rapture and keeping the target alive so overwriting DA's has to be a concern. Not that crit isn't important but without supporting math it is just a guess. Take a look at l337n00bs spreadsheet and you will find that haste is higher value than crit, with which my own calculations agree.

Stat weights vary greatly based on spell selection and playstyle as well. For example if you always use the Borrowed Time proc on Flash, less haste is required because you quickly reach sub 1 sec Flash Heals. Though if you use BT on either GHeal or PoH more haste stacking is valuable.

Gems
Throughput
Red slots:
Yellow slots:
Blue slots:

Regen
Red slots:
Yellow slots:
Blue slots:

Metaslot
is far superior to any other metagem currently available.


- Is only superior at lower gear levels and when regen is a significant problem.
- Is superior as a combined throughput and regen meta. At 1100 Int it provides more intelligence than the Insightful.

1 Int = .1875mp5 (Replenishment)
1 Int = .208mp5 (6min fight, mana pool size)
1 Int = .083mp5 (6min fight, shadowfiend)
1 Int = .017mp5 (6min fight, DA absorbs procing Rapture) - Might need new modeling
1 Int = up to .5 mana per cast flash/greater heal = 4500/11460*.025*20*200/360*5 = ~.545mp5
1 Int = up to 1.5 mana per cast Penance = 3500/11460*.025*20*3/7*5 = ~.327mp5
1 Int = 1.3675mp5

IED is worth ~30mp5 on average... So for ESD to equal its regen you need to reach, 30/1.3675 = 21.93 Int + 21 Int = 42.93 Int. This requires an unreal amount of Int somewhere around ~1900 unbuffed. Though at 1500 Int you receive more than the minimum mana regen that the IED models too, considering you also receive spell power it is well worth it. Using ESD also frees you from having to use any Purple gems which are in all ways inferior, unless you really want the socket bonus.

As others have noted and are alternative choices to Potent. In principle I would lean to Luminous first, Reckless second, and then Potent. My own modeling and stat weighting also put the Sanctum's Flowing Vestments as best in slot, and I definitely do not agree with the Digested Silken Robes as best in slot.

Another thought is that healers in general shouldn't be focused on topping the "meters". The "meter" mentality is a major reason why Discipline looks like a poor performer for those that don't dig deeper. Once I complete work on my new combat tracking mod that provides data about Disc priests impact to healing I will make a link available here for those that are interested in using it. Currently, you can modify recount to track PW:S and DA though it is solely tracking the amount applied and has no information on what is used. This causes the data to be incredibly skewed, I have seen recounts where I show doing 5-10% more healing on a 25man full clear of Naxx.

#25 fenfire

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 02:13 AM

The main problem we will encounter and already do encounter in discussions with other healers is the lack of empirical data. TheDoctor already mentioned the main problem: absorbed damage, though listed in the combatlog, is not specified. No matter how hard you try to find a possibility to track your absorbs, the mechanics of the current combatlog just show:

Entity (A) attacks Entity (B) with ability (X) for (Y) damage. (Z) damage is absorbed.

No clue if the amount of damage absorbed was absorbed by PW:S or DA or even an other ability cast by someone in the raid. If there are questions asked by members of your raid, try to explain why you can't show them what you did during a fight because of the problem shown above. It is highly important that you explain this to prevent further misinformations about Power Word: Shield and Discpriests in general.

What leads you to believe that more than 23k mana is non-optimal? Increasing mana pool yields the best regen increase for Disc currently. Larger mana pool > rapture returns > mana fiend returns > replenishment returns. 25k mana vs. 23k mana on a 3 minute fight is the equivalent of, 2000/(3*60/5) = 55.6 mp5 over the fight just account for the difference in mana pool and not any of the other benefits.


Your math seems correct as far as I can see and calculate. The main reason 23k is a "cap" stated in the above mentioned post is that we do not need more manareg as we have got right now as soon as we pass the magial barrier of 20k. However, it is possible that we will have to fight bosses where we need more manareg, especially with Ulduar on my mind. Therefore, we need to state in the main post the math TheDoctor provided us with. Thanks a lot for that, although you could show your calculation and explain the approach you took to achieve these results.

I would like to have more empirical and theoretical input on the question of Crit VS. Haste. My main problem when trying to find a mathematical clue is that if we assume a certain time healing, haste also gets us more crits. Perhaps there is someone out there who could model a formula for our education regarding Crit VS. Haste.
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. - Andre Gide

#26 TheDoctor

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 03:13 AM

Your math seems correct as far as I can see and calculate. The main reason 23k is a "cap" stated in the above mentioned post is that we do not need more manareg as we have got right now as soon as we pass the magial barrier of 20k. However, it is possible that we will have to fight bosses where we need more manareg, especially with Ulduar on my mind. Therefore, we need to state in the main post the math TheDoctor provided us with. Thanks a lot for that, although you could show your calculation and explain the approach you took to achieve these results.

I would like to have more empirical and theoretical input on the question of Crit VS. Haste. My main problem when trying to find a mathematical clue is that if we assume a certain time healing, haste also gets us more crits. Perhaps there is someone out there who could model a formula for our education regarding Crit VS. Haste.


Well while our regen is good now once we can target PoH and depending on the cost of Barrier... More regen might be well worth it. I run 26k+ mana raid buffed right now and don't worry that I have too much and am not sacrificing other stats to get there.

#27 Kaeltala

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:45 AM

Speaking about maths , did I miss the "rapture cap" on any of those threads ?

What is the exact amount of heal or absorb that will give us back those 2,5% ?

I ran some tests tonight and I ended with a number close to 9330 but then I have a few other questions :

- If I land a Crit Greater heal for 10K (just an easy number for calculations) , will I get 2,5% from rapture + the approx. 0,8% from the aegis ? Or will it consider the total "healing" being 13K and then give me back only 2,5% ?

- Rapture regen scales well , because it does with int AND Spellpower, but did anyone made a model of wich one scales the better at differents levels of gear ?




Done with rapture...

Now about crit vs haste topic : I think we have 2 great tools (Power Infusion and BT) that allow us to haste ourselves when needed and so Crit seems to me a better option for regular troughput , even if it seems weird I admit it, the fact is that I value the absorptions effects high , mainly because it IS our strenght and a shield can not be sniped by another healer, making Haste less "needed" , even being a very good troughput stat . I found 40% crit on my tank(s) (raidbuffed and renewed hope) being a good number to avoid losing some aegis but this is totally my feeling.


Sorry for my english.

#28 TheDoctor

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 06:56 AM

I posted a good deal on rapture returns in the other thread but the end result is....

Rapture Mana Return = (Healed or Absorbed Amount / 11460) * 2.5% * Mana Pool

The fact that the divsor (~11460) is a constant factor will cause rapture returns to reach exceedingly high levels in the next tier or two of content. Very rarely does the 11460 not result in the right amount in calculation and when it is off it underestimates by less than 5 mana from what have ever witnessed.

#29 fenfire

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 07:17 AM

Still no one bearing with the math of Crit VS. Haste?
Let's get some things clear we should take in consideration when talking about this topic:

  • We should assume there is a set timeframe in which we are healing.
  • We should assume that we cast on every GCD.
  • We should assume that a certain percentage of our casts will crit.
  • Critting heals are better than non- crits by a certain factor.
  • If we consider mana, we have to consider how much we spend and how much we gain.

I think that the main problems when trying to compute those things together are the points 4 and 5 due to our talents and the nature of our healing/mitigation.

ad 1: The longer the timeframe, the better haste gets if you just consider raw HpS.
ad 2: Casts as Penance or Greater Heal exceed our GCD.
ad 3: Nothing important to add.
ad 4: What is that factor? I hope THeDoctor may help us out here, I just can't find specific information regarding Dischealing in the other thread.
ad 5:

Rapture Mana Return = (Healed or Absorbed Amount / 11460) * 2.5% * Mana Pool


Feel free to discuss and/or improve the points made above.
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. - Andre Gide

#30 Elimbras

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 10:59 AM

I'm not worried about the maths for crits vs haste. It's quite easy to compute best hps numbers, once given a model.

But we all know that healing is not just hps : it's more about timing the right heal at the right moment. That's one point for haste, it allows more timing, even if it does not reduce the cd on our best heals (penance, PW:S and maybe POM).

The second problem is the one of the model : the answer will highly depends on some parameters of the model, such as the self over-writting of the DA shields. One key factor is also the damage pattern, and whom you are healing (heal pool and avoidance), and the healers that assists you.

For all this reasons (and because I'm currently heavily busy at work), I won't compute hps number for haste and crit. But you may find them in Rawr for example ;-)

That's also one point I'd like to give a warning. I agree it is sup-optimal to stack heavily crit. 30% for me is a fine value indeed. But please do not remember this value as a magic number : it's an estimate, not precise, nothing like the hit cap for dps for example. So don't bother whether weakened soul is included or not, it's not that precise and clear, and will depends on fights.

One point about raid healing : holy has not only COH for raid healing. It also has a better POM than Disc, and a better binding heal (mainly, binding heal is heavily mana-consuming for disc, as it does not proc rapture). In 3.1, serependity will also change, but that's not yet.

#31 bawaah

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 11:32 AM

I tried to look up from earlier threads but could find, so im asking here:

Is there some way to calculate the rageloss when using shield on warrior/druid tanks as disc priest? Seems that it's not going to be an issue in 3.1 anymore but i'm rather interested does that play role in current raiding if priest is spamming shield on tanks? Some say its not an issue in wotlk and some say it is.

#32 Mokhtar

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 11:53 AM

The main problem we will encounter and already do encounter in discussions with other healers is the lack of empirical data. TheDoctor already mentioned the main problem: absorbed damage, though listed in the combatlog, is not specified.

I've seen Elsia trying to gather info on #wowace, from what I could gather she/he's hoping to reverse engineer the shield logic and order of use to correctly attribute blocked amount to the right healer in Recount. It seems like a difficult job and is as error prone as any heuristic mehtod is though...

#33 Cydon

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 12:06 PM

I tried to look up from earlier threads but could find, so im asking here:

Is there some way to calculate the rageloss when using shield on warrior/druid tanks as disc priest? Seems that it's not going to be an issue in 3.1 anymore but i'm rather interested does that play role in current raiding if priest is spamming shield on tanks? Some say its not an issue in wotlk and some say it is.


(Disclaimer: I pretty much suck at math, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

My shield absorbs ~6000 damage with full raid buffs. Last time I checked, warrior rage generation from damage taken was '(Damage Taken) * 2,5 / 320'
So a 6k hit would yield ~46 rage. Going by a fight length of 4 minutes, you would be able to cast 16 shields at the tank (240/15) Which means the tank would be losing out on ~736 rage.

I won't do a 'lost rage'->threat calculation, but it's not an issue in current raid content. You didn't really specify what the issue was, but I can't really see it as being anything but linked with threat, and the tps generation of a warrior is more than sufficient, even with a disc priest in the raid.

#34 bawaah

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 12:32 PM

(Disclaimer: I pretty much suck at math, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

My shield absorbs ~6000 damage with full raid buffs. Last time I checked, warrior rage generation from damage taken was '(Damage Taken) * 2,5 / 320'
So a 6k hit would yield ~46 rage. Going by a fight length of 4 minutes, you would be able to cast 16 shields at the tank (240/15) Which means the tank would be losing out on ~736 rage.

I won't do a 'lost rage'->threat calculation, but it's not an issue in current raid content. You didn't really specify what the issue was, but I can't really see it as being anything but linked with threat, and the tps generation of a warrior is more than sufficient, even with a disc priest in the raid.


Aye, i could have been bit more specific. My main concern is that can dps do damage as much as they would do without disc priest bubbling the tank. Seems that they pretty much can. I guess it depends a bit about boss aswell.

#35 Cadfael

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 12:33 PM

I've seen Elsia trying to gather info on #wowace, from what I could gather she/he's hoping to reverse engineer the shield logic and order of use to correctly attribute blocked amount to the right healer in Recount. It seems like a difficult job and is as error prone as any heuristic mehtod is though...


Although quite some bugs have been fixed by now, the bug with incorrect Rapture returns on shieldhits with shield fading is or was still present. Now it might have been fixed but I'm not going every day through combat logs verifying if it has been silently hotfixed as I think this particular bug hasn't even been acknowledged by Blizzard in the first place.

The bug is as follows: Just suppose you apply a shield capable of absorbing 2000 damage. A melee swing hits that target for 1999 and is fully absorbed. The shield now has a "1 damage charge" left. Next melee hits the target for 10000 damage. 1 damage of that is absorbed, the shield fails. Rapture return now is as if the shield absorbed 10000 worth of damage which it clearly didn't.

Paired with the fact that the order of absorption with multiple absorbs or that you can have multiple partial shield absorbs if the hits just follow fast on each other (ie. you can actually have multiple shield breakings with partial absorbs from the very same shield) makes it impossible to do an accurate measurment of the shield mitigation effect.

Even if the various small bugs around are being fixed, it's still a major pain in the ass to get the true numbers and I stand with my opinion that Blizzard should be asked to extend the SPELL_AURA_APPLIED and SPELL_AURA_REMOVED combat log events by adding a single integer parameter with the relevant values (ie. SPELL_AURA_APPLIED PW:S with parameter 5678 meaning Shield capable of absorbing 5678 damage applied and SPELL_AURA_REMOVED PW:S with parameter 1234 either means the fading shield absorbed 1234 damage or that this is the value left it could have had absorbed).

Until something like that happens, take your effective healing and add 1/3 on top of it. It's probably in the same error range like any complicated methodolgy you painstakingly apply to try to read it out of mana returns or absorbs observed.

#36 Elimbras

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 01:17 PM

Computing absorbs for disc. priest that have rapture, and negliging the partial absorb bug, it is quite easy to get the shield effective "healing".
The following shoud work :
1/ Pair some direct heals and rapture gain, to estimate max mana of the priest.
2/ Compute all direct effective healing that triggers rapture (flash, greater and penance).
3/ Compute all rapture gain.
4/ From 1/ and 2/, compute rapture gain from direct heals.
5/ From 3/ and 4/, computre rapture gain from shields.
6/ From 1/ and 5/, compute shields absorb value.

#37 Sureall

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 01:46 PM

I'm not worried about the maths for crits vs haste. It's quite easy to compute best hps numbers, once given a model.

But we all know that healing is not just hps : it's more about timing the right heal at the right moment. That's one point for haste, it allows more timing, even if it does not reduce the cd on our best heals (penance, PW:S and maybe POM).

The second problem is the one of the model : the answer will highly depends on some parameters of the model, such as the self over-writting of the DA shields. One key factor is also the damage pattern, and whom you are healing (heal pool and avoidance), and the healers that assists you.

For all this reasons (and because I'm currently heavily busy at work), I won't compute hps number for haste and crit. But you may find them in Rawr for example ;-)

That's also one point I'd like to give a warning. I agree it is sup-optimal to stack heavily crit. 30% for me is a fine value indeed. But please do not remember this value as a magic number : it's an estimate, not precise, nothing like the hit cap for dps for example. So don't bother whether weakened soul is included or not, it's not that precise and clear, and will depends on fights.

One point about raid healing : holy has not only COH for raid healing. It also has a better POM than Disc, and a better binding heal (mainly, binding heal is heavily mana-consuming for disc, as it does not proc rapture). In 3.1, serependity will also change, but that's not yet.


Firstly, I would think that the only viable discussion at the moment is to "min/maxing" the current content. As ulduar comes out there is no question we will need to start gemming intellect in my opinion. Given the current gear and the only real way to stack int is via gems, I find it a moot point. You can easily push 20k+ int without any int gems. I am also assuming that you are holding onto a regen set for extreme cases like 1 man healing nax or healing 25 man nax with less than 4 healers.

Lets asses some immediate advantages to haste over crit without having to delve into the mathematics.
1) Crit has diminishing returns where haste arguable does not as you will never hit the cap(assuming current content).
2) Crit costs more per iLvl. Part of the reasoning here is that you can make up the crit loss through the boomkin aura whereas haste has no long term raid buff.
3)Crit does have several meaningful affects as it helps with throughput and mana regeneration. However, if we assume a geared individual that is not needing mana regeneration it makes crit less valuable by default.

I have more than likely missed a few points but would like to open up the discussion a bit more and see where it takes us. Hopefully with some math that presumes regen is for the most part a non issue until ulduar.

#38 Rivinicus

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 02:24 PM

2) Crit costs more per iLvl. Part of the reasoning here is that you can make up the crit loss through the boomkin aura whereas haste has no long term raid buff.


A moonkin druid with the talent "Improved Moonkin Form" provides 3% haste (at 3/3 points) to the raid and spell power equal to 5% of their spirit for themself. Because it's "improved" the haste portion won't show up on the tooltip in your buff list (like fully talents BoK and Improved Power Word: Fortitude). Having played a balance druid in the past, I can't see a reason why a balance druid wouldn't take these 3 points but I may be missing something here.

#39 Elimbras

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 02:31 PM

Firstly, I would think that the only viable discussion at the moment is to "min/maxing" the current content. As ulduar comes out there is no question we will need to start gemming intellect in my opinion. Given the current gear and the only real way to stack int is via gems, I find it a moot point. You can easily push 20k+ int without any int gems. I am also assuming that you are holding onto a regen set for extreme cases like 1 man healing nax or healing 25 man nax with less than 4 healers.


Granted, the challenge is not extreme.
I just always have difficulties to provide some numbers that are true in specific context, and that people will always generalize as a well-known fact latter. I've seen senior researchers doing this, I've seen good Wow player doing this, and I don't have any hope that the majority will be careful when dealing with numbers ;-) That's why I prefer to emphasize that healing is not hps before giving numbers.


Lets asses some immediate advantages to haste over crit without having to delve into the mathematics.
1) Crit has diminishing returns where haste arguable does not as you will never hit the cap(assuming current content).
2) Crit costs more per iLvl. Part of the reasoning here is that you can make up the crit loss through the boomkin aura whereas haste has no long term raid buff.
3)Crit does have several meaningful affects as it helps with throughput and mana regeneration. However, if we assume a geared individual that is not needing mana regeneration it makes crit less valuable by default.

I have more than likely missed a few points but would like to open up the discussion a bit more and see where it takes us. Hopefully with some math that presumes regen is for the most part a non issue until ulduar.


Please note that wrath of air totems provides also a static 5% boost to haste. And as far as I am concerned, I always have one or 2 shamans in heroic raids (and almost always 1 in 10s), whereas I can't count for sure on elemental shaman or boomkin.
But what you wrote is mostly true. Haste will be better for a throughput stat once you have infinite mana, and has diminushing returns.

There is just a few points in favor of crit I'd like to re-asset, just in case :
1) Inspiration is a huge bonus to crit. You don't need tons of crit to have it nearly full-time, but you need some crit. That part of crit, you don't want to miss.
2) Divine aegis is also a good bonus, compared to TBC case. Basically, it is close to meaning that crit heals heal for twice the amount of normal heals (whereas it was only 50% more during TBC). It would be better if Divine Aegis wouldn't replace itself, but that's still one good bonus for crits. Arguably, shielding is also a interesting feature (both for damage prevention and overhealing reduction).
3) Haste has also some limits, due to cooldowns for penance / PW:S / POM. Therefore, 1% more haste is less than 1% more heal. Therefore, it behaves comparably to crit as far as scaling is concerned (see later for detailed point).
4) Haste has a soft cap, which is the 1s gcd under bloodlust / power_infusion / borrowed time. That soft cap is not really far.


Detailed point on scaling :
Crit :
Ignoring overhealing and overwriting of DA, each point in crit (all other things being equal) grants the same amount of hps : 1% more crit gives 1% (considering crit heals, including DA, heals for 200%, for simplicity) more of your non-crit healing. For that reason, depending on terminology, one can say its return is constant (in absolute value) or diminishing (in relative value : going for 0 to 1% crit is relatively better that for 99% to
100%).

Haste :
Haste divide casting time (and gcd). If one has x% of haste, the casting time is divided by (1 + x/100). In other words, the number of heals you throw in the same time-frame is multiplied by (1+x/100).
Now, disc best heals are on cd. This means that even if they do be hasted, you can't throw more penance or PW:S. It just leave more room for flash or greater heal.
If you have 100% haste, the same heals you cast without haste take half of the time. During the other half, you can now cast fh / gh. They are hasted, which means that you can throw during that half of the time the same number of heals you could throw unhasted during the full time). Basically, you've gain the hps of fh/gh unhasted. That's nice, but that's not doubling you hps either.
More, if you consider x% of haste only, time to cast the same rotation takes you (1/(1+x/100) ) of the normal time. It leaves you x/100 / (1+x/100) ) for new heals. They are hasted by x%, so in that time frame, you can cast x/100 new heals. You've still gained x/100 of the hps of unhasted fh/gh.
Once again, the return is either constant (in absolute value) or diminushing (in relative value).
[B}Conclusion : [/B]
Blizzard made sure that nearly all the stats have a constant absolute return. That's true for haste / crit / AP / spellpower and hit. The one case that was not constant in TBC was ArP and maybe spell penetration, which I've never been interested in (I don't know whether ArP has been "linearized" in 3.0 or not) . It was a common mistake during TBC for (french) hunts to consider that AP was "bad" because of static absolute return (the famous unmodified 14AP = 1dps), when crit / haste/ hit had relative returns and were not interesting. At least in EJ, I'd would be glad we don't make the same mistake in scaling.


NB : I'm not native english speaker. Please be indulgent for my poor english.

#40 TheDoctor

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 03:50 PM

Computing absorbs for disc. priest that have rapture, and negliging the partial absorb bug, it is quite easy to get the shield effective "healing".
The following shoud work :
1/ Pair some direct heals and rapture gain, to estimate max mana of the priest.
2/ Compute all direct effective healing that triggers rapture (flash, greater and penance).
3/ Compute all rapture gain.
4/ From 1/ and 2/, compute rapture gain from direct heals.
5/ From 3/ and 4/, computre rapture gain from shields.
6/ From 1/ and 5/, compute shields absorb value.


This sounds easier than it is in practice on a real-time mod. Though it is part of what I am working on for my combat mod..... The problem right now is that everything I have come up with requires a pre-knowledge of what priests are disc and that disc priests have the PW:S Glyph (which they likely will).

What I am working towards in a mod is this:
- Adding a tracking tab that per player tracks absorbtion effects applied from all known sources and absorbtion effects expended. This generates a overall, current fight, absorbtion % effective for each player that can be used on later calculations.
- When adding data to the healing tab it checks if the player is disc, and if so calculates the maximal value of PW:S / DA that will be applied to the target (this is added to the absorbtion tab). The effective usage value for the target player is applied against the maximal value (add some math to ensure proper shift of effectiveness numbers based on a new PW:S has 30seconds before absorbtion expires and DA has a shorter 12sec window) - this generates a initial pass at shield effectiveness.
- Using data from effective healing of Flash, Greater Heal, Penance calculated expected rapture gains... Based on the rapture gains exceeding that value estimate the absorbtion rapture gains. Use this data to validate or modify the initial pass shield effectiveness data in the healing tab.

From this two Disc priests can have absorbtion effects landing on the same targets and generate a general effectiveness of each priests contributions to the same target. The data is double verified and should give fairly real values for the absorbtion applied/used/un-used. Most importantly the absorbtion tab will provide real insight into how much absorbtion gets used by each player and you can shift your PW:S usage to the targets that gain the most benefit (tanks + dps that takes damage).

Even though I am writing this to track multiple Disc priests in a raid and I think 2 Disc priests could work... I don't think it will be optimal for more than 1 Disc priest even in 25's. This is especially true as PW:S from 1 blocks the other and DA doesn't stack. Things could change but I won't hold my breath... For now I am very happy with running 1Disc/1Holy or 1Disc/2Holy in our 25s as our strengths play well too each other.




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