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Discipline priest raiding compendium


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#41 Sureall

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 03:58 PM

Granted, the challenge is not extreme.
I just always have difficulties to provide some numbers that are true in specific context, and that people will always generalize as a well-known fact latter. I've seen senior researchers doing this, I've seen good Wow player doing this, and I don't have any hope that the majority will be careful when dealing with numbers ;-) That's why I prefer to emphasize that healing is not hps before giving numbers.




Please note that wrath of air totems provides also a static 5% boost to haste. And as far as I am concerned, I always have one or 2 shamans in heroic raids (and almost always 1 in 10s), whereas I can't count for sure on elemental shaman or boomkin.
But what you wrote is mostly true. Haste will be better for a throughput stat once you have infinite mana, and has diminushing returns.

There is just a few points in favor of crit I'd like to re-asset, just in case :
1) Inspiration is a huge bonus to crit. You don't need tons of crit to have it nearly full-time, but you need some crit. That part of crit, you don't want to miss.
2) Divine aegis is also a good bonus, compared to TBC case. Basically, it is close to meaning that crit heals heal for twice the amount of normal heals (whereas it was only 50% more during TBC). It would be better if Divine Aegis wouldn't replace itself, but that's still one good bonus for crits. Arguably, shielding is also a interesting feature (both for damage prevention and overhealing reduction).
3) Haste has also some limits, due to cooldowns for penance / PW:S / POM. Therefore, 1% more haste is less than 1% more heal. Therefore, it behaves comparably to crit as far as scaling is concerned (see later for detailed point).
4) Haste has a soft cap, which is the 1s gcd under bloodlust / power_infusion / borrowed time. That soft cap is not really far.


Detailed point on scaling :
Crit :
Ignoring overhealing and overwriting of DA, each point in crit (all other things being equal) grants the same amount of hps : 1% more crit gives 1% (considering crit heals, including DA, heals for 200%, for simplicity) more of your non-crit healing. For that reason, depending on terminology, one can say its return is constant (in absolute value) or diminishing (in relative value : going for 0 to 1% crit is relatively better that for 99% to
100%).

Haste :
Haste divide casting time (and gcd). If one has x% of haste, the casting time is divided by (1 + x/100). In other words, the number of heals you throw in the same time-frame is multiplied by (1+x/100).
Now, disc best heals are on cd. This means that even if they do be hasted, you can't throw more penance or PW:S. It just leave more room for flash or greater heal.
If you have 100% haste, the same heals you cast without haste take half of the time. During the other half, you can now cast fh / gh. They are hasted, which means that you can throw during that half of the time the same number of heals you could throw unhasted during the full time). Basically, you've gain the hps of fh/gh unhasted. That's nice, but that's not doubling you hps either.
More, if you consider x% of haste only, time to cast the same rotation takes you (1/(1+x/100) ) of the normal time. It leaves you x/100 / (1+x/100) ) for new heals. They are hasted by x%, so in that time frame, you can cast x/100 new heals. You've still gained x/100 of the hps of unhasted fh/gh.
Once again, the return is either constant (in absolute value) or diminushing (in relative value).
[B}Conclusion : [/B]
Blizzard made sure that nearly all the stats have a constant absolute return. That's true for haste / crit / AP / spellpower and hit. The one case that was not constant in TBC was ArP and maybe spell penetration, which I've never been interested in (I don't know whether ArP has been "linearized" in 3.0 or not) . It was a common mistake during TBC for (french) hunts to consider that AP was "bad" because of static absolute return (the famous unmodified 14AP = 1dps), when crit / haste/ hit had relative returns and were not interesting. At least in EJ, I'd would be glad we don't make the same mistake in scaling.


NB : I'm not native english speaker. Please be indulgent for my poor english.


Firstly, thank you for the clarification on static haste buffs, an oversight on my part. I have bolded the main point I want to discuss here.

Let me first give a situation that will hopefully conclude playstyle B as superior as well as a greater value given to haste assuming playstyle B. Both assume you are healing MT and spotting raid or OT

Playstyle A: Your WWS may have Penance as the number one heal and you like to use this on CD, keeping all the nice buffs disc has to offer up on the tank, DA,grace,inspiration etc.

Playstyle B: you mostly flash heal the MT and reserve penance for emergencies. Your WWS may have flash heal as 1 and PoM as 2 with penance as 3. What playstyle B allows is for a penance when a dps pulls aggro or when a boss soft enrages or a sarth deep breath. Basically reserving penance as you would pain suppression but without the long CD. You should never really have a situation where 2 players need penance at the same time(assuming raid is functioning as intended) and due to this the value of haste is supreme as you want a fast flash heal. The worries of penance being on CD is negated. Also while flash heal is not as effective as penance for keeping inspiration at el on the tank it still suffices enough to warrant playstyle B in my opinion.

#42 TheDoctor

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:49 PM

Firstly, thank you for the clarification on static haste buffs, an oversight on my part. I have bolded the main point I want to discuss here.

Let me first give a situation that will hopefully conclude playstyle B as superior as well as a greater value given to haste assuming playstyle B. Both assume you are healing MT and spotting raid or OT

Playstyle A: Your WWS may have Penance as the number one heal and you like to use this on CD, keeping all the nice buffs disc has to offer up on the tank, DA,grace,inspiration etc.

Playstyle B: you mostly flash heal the MT and reserve penance for emergencies. Your WWS may have flash heal as 1 and PoM as 2 with penance as 3. What playstyle B allows is for a penance when a dps pulls aggro or when a boss soft enrages or a sarth deep breath. Basically reserving penance as you would pain suppression but without the long CD. You should never really have a situation where 2 players need penance at the same time(assuming raid is functioning as intended) and due to this the value of haste is supreme as you want a fast flash heal. The worries of penance being on CD is negated. Also while flash heal is not as effective as penance for keeping inspiration at el on the tank it still suffices enough to warrant playstyle B in my opinion.


A & B Discussion
I don't think either of these can be labeled as a strict rule. I might be wrong for others but I run somewhere between and it all depends on the fight.

A: Penance imo should be used on CD if it can be effective in either 1) being mostly/all effective healing because it will regen mana instead of costing it (for me at least) and 2) if the grace/inspiration is needed on a high value target such as the MT/OT. Saving it lowers the number of potential usages and as it is really high HPS and HPM lowers overall performance.

B: The go to button for a dps that pulls aggro and other emergencies should be PW:S. It has a shorter CD so you can use it on MT/OT and random raid members regularly. PW:S has a large benefit to being cast more often due to BT. Also, if a dps starts taking dmg that you notice it is likely that other healers notice as well and cross healing is going to happen right away.
Scenario: Random dps starts taking massive dmg, is now <50% health on your raid frame and dropping. If 2 raid healers start to heal that person, or if CH is going to link to them and you also land a fast Penance. There will be a lot of overheal due to cross healing, and now Penance is on CD. If the target is still taking large damage what can you do? All that overheal is wasted and you don't have another Penance.... Conversly, if you first option for that person is PW:S you have provided an instant buffer of 6-7k hp. The cross healing does less overhealing. You PW:S might get absorbed immediately saving them or might remain for the next 30second partially or in whole if the damage stream starts again. Additionally, you just bought 25% haste for your next decision.... If the damage is still coming fast you can go to a Penance that doesn't consume BT or can do a possibly sub second Flash or a sub 2sec Gheal/PoH.

If you are MT/OT healing you can.... PW:S (the random dps) -> Penance (primary target) -> BT'd PoH/Flash/Gheal (whoever needs)... An alternative is PW:S (primary target) -> Penance (the random dps) -> BT'd PoH/Flash/Gheal. The problem with the second option is you can only choose it once per 15seconds, where the first option can happen every 4 seconds with every other one using immediately following the PW:S.

I see PW:S as the first answer that gives the most options for what next.

Crit vs. Haste
- I am working on math, just some current thoughts for now.
1. Inspiration doesn't require a high amount of crit to keep up on the tank, so isn't really a solid reason to stack crit.

2. DA is nice, but until we know how effective it is on targets other than the MT/OT (constant dmg stream) it isn't a reason to stack crit either. Also, depending on spell selection and haste crit becomes less beneficial at some point due to overwriting DA. With 1.2 second Flash heals and 1.4 second channeled Penance that is... 13 opportunities chain casting on a target to apply DA at 30% crit you will get on average 3.9 crits = .325 per second over the window of DA being active. Depending on the incoming damage spacing a crit flash before or after penance for a total of 2 crits will likely cause an overwrite. More haste compounds the situation just like more crit does.

3. The haste limit is 50% before you start to break the GCD hard minimum. This is only in current gearing a problem on the BT'd casts. Which is a great reason to use Gheal/PoH to consume BT both if used properly provide great HPS when that hasted (I have gotten off 1.3sec PoH's). If you use only PoM/Flash/Penance/PW:S your value for haste is greatly diminished.

4. When valuing Crit as a stat you can't completely ignore overhealing. For simplicities sake you can but it isn't realistic because overhealing impacts everything and most especially rapture returns.

5. If you take a theoretical 2 second heal that heals for 5000. In a 2 second window you can cast it once for 2500hps. If you have 100% haste you can now cast 2 in 2seconds for a total of 5000hps. That is doubling your hps (+100%) if it is effective. It also gives twice the opportunity for a crit which yields DA absorbtion and potential for mana return. If you have 50% haste you can now cast 3 in 4seconds for a total of 3750hps. That is +50% to your hps... You can come close to 1% haste -> 1% more hps if you choose targets properly using the same spell.

Take a scenario with 2 spell choices:
Spell 1 - 2 second heal that heals for 5000
Spell 2 - 3 second heal that heals for 20000

The 100% haste scenario allows:
Spell 1 only - gain 100% hps
Spell 2 only - gain 100% hps

If you only have 2.5 seconds to heal during:
Spell 1 only = 10000/2 (half second lost) = 5000hps (+100%), in window 4000hps (+100%)
Spell 2 only = 20000/1.5 (full second lost) = 13333hps (+100%), in window 8000hps (previously impossible)
Spell 1 & 2 = 25000/2.5 = 10000hps without the haste was impossible so effectively (+400%)

In a time constrained situation where your spell selection can change you can gain non-linear hps increases with haste. This is based on spell selection effectiveness and having targets that you can use higher impact heals upon. Actual scenarios will vary well below the theoretical obviously.

#43 Elimbras

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:52 PM

Concerning the mod :
I was effectively thinking more to a WWS tool, or a recount that computes healing after the fights, than to a real-time addon. But I never look at recount during the fights : I'm healing. I look at it when the boss is dead (or I am).


@Sureall :
In fact, I was not precise, but even without cd on penance, the return of haste is still constant in absolute value. One gain the percent of heal without haste. But my post was not clear about this point.

What you speak about is different : haste is good at reacting to burst damage. It's perfectly true : that's why I was saying that healing is more about timing the heal (preventing big strikes, pre-casting, reactive with high hps heals) than raw hps. Your playstyle B has less hps than playstyle A. But at least in some cases, it can be better to keep a tank (or a raid) alive.
These questions are difficult to answer generally with numbers. That's really the question of the damage pattern : how often (and big) are the strikes ? How many HP the players have ? We don't have a generic pattern valuable for all fights.

On Sarth + 3D, there are some very heavy bursty damage you need to prevent / react. If you can keep the tank up with flash (or gh), and the raid healer have enough hps on their own, strategy B is likely to be better than A.
On Sapphiron, if you are raid-healer (as I am, we are 2 disc priest), you need all the hps you can provide on the raid, and there is no burst damage. So I prefer to use penance (and PW:S) on cd to maximize my healing.

Without any clear and valuable damage pattern (as well as player HP, etc.), there is no mathematical definitive answer about haste / crit , and how to heal the best ( it doesn't mean there is no way better than another, or better choices of gear, just that maths aren't helpful there). The only point where you can give mathematical answer is maximizing hps, as you don't care about damage. Then you blow all your cd as they are up (except for combos). But that's not always the best way to heal...

#44 atrinitydream

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 05:10 PM

- Is only superior at lower gear levels and when regen is a significant problem.
- Is superior as a combined throughput and regen meta. At 1100 Int it provides more intelligence than the Insightful.

1 Int = .1875mp5 (Replenishment)
1 Int = .208mp5 (6min fight, mana pool size)
1 Int = .083mp5 (6min fight, shadowfiend)
1 Int = .017mp5 (6min fight, DA absorbs procing Rapture) - Might need new modeling
1 Int = up to .5 mana per cast flash/greater heal = 4500/11460*.025*20*200/360*5 = ~.545mp5
1 Int = up to 1.5 mana per cast Penance = 3500/11460*.025*20*3/7*5 = ~.327mp5
1 Int = 1.3675mp5

IED is worth ~30mp5 on average... So for ESD to equal its regen you need to reach, 30/1.3675 = 21.93 Int + 21 Int = 42.93 Int. This requires an unreal amount of Int somewhere around ~1900 unbuffed. Though at 1500 Int you receive more than the minimum mana regen that the IED models too, considering you also receive spell power it is well worth it. Using ESD also frees you from having to use any Purple gems which are in all ways inferior, unless you really want the socket bonus.


I posted this on the Simple Questions thread a week or two ago, but I don't agree that the ISD is only a valid choice at lower gear levels. You just have to not consider it in a vacuum. (Don't misconstrue what I'm saying to mean that I think the ESD is an invalid choice - I think that in this as in most gemming choices there are options.)

30 mp5 is a non-trivial amount of regen, given that that number is right (Constantius originally gives 50 MP5 in his Compendium, and I haven't mathed out to see which number is closer to right). If you look at it in terms of other gems, if you're currently using in red slots, you could trade two of those for , gaining roughly the same spellpower as the ESD while losing nowhere near that amount of regen.

Furthermore - and I'm assuming throughout that regen is significant, which though not really true right now should hopefully become more significant with Ulduar - if you consider the number of pieces you could drop spirit/mp5 from to make up the gained 30-50 mp5 (i.e. ) it ends up being better for throughput than ESD and 30-50 mp5 worth of regen gear.

#45 The Not So Evil

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 05:21 PM

I'm personally still a fan of heh. Very simplified, it increases the value of all mana regen via DA/Rapture by 3%, and increases value of any crit buffs you have by 3%. In some cases this Meta could help tip the scales from preferring Haste over Crit to the other way around.
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#46 TheDoctor

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 05:41 PM

I'm personally still a fan of heh. Very simplified, it increases the value of all mana regen via DA/Rapture by 3%, and increases value of any crit buffs you have by 3%. In some cases this Meta could help tip the scales from preferring Haste over Crit to the other way around.


Honestly I have never considered that gem due to the mp5 on it... Though you are right about the crit effect, makes for some intrigue.

@atrinitydream -

I use 30mp5 because I found that IED is worth between 15mp5 and 45mp5. I saw some math somewhere that matched mine and translated it into an average of 25/30mp5.

I have been playing with my gemming and a leaning towards using orange gems, namely, only in yellow slots when the socket bonus is worthwhile. The in all red slots and any blue slots that the socket bonus + purple gem is less valuable. I personally like ESD because I do not require any blue/purple gems in my gear which I find sub-par, and will have to look into the RSD for similar reasons.

#47 fenfire

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 12:53 AM

2. DA is nice, but until we know how effective it is on targets other than the MT/OT (constant dmg stream) it isn't a reason to stack crit either. Also, depending on spell selection and haste crit becomes less beneficial at some point due to overwriting DA. With 1.2 second Flash heals and 1.4 second channeled Penance that is... 13 opportunities chain casting on a target to apply DA at 30% crit you will get on average 3.9 crits = .325 per second over the window of DA being active. Depending on the incoming damage spacing a crit flash before or after penance for a total of 2 crits will likely cause an overwrite. More haste compounds the situation just like more crit does.


Why don't we know that? For calculating purposes, we should think of absorb effects as a HP- buff. A player with 20k HP carrying a PW:S which absorbs 5k damage has an effecive HP- pool of 25k. Furthermore, an absorb- effect can't overheal, there is just a possibility that it will expire if there is no damage incoming and therefore becomes useless. Nevertheless, I fully slashsign your comment about overwriting an existing DA.

Thinking about tankhealing, we can just take as granted that we will always have Inspiration and Grace up and have no control over DA or even an overwriting of our own DA. Grace will never run out if you just cast Penance on CD on the tank. And if we now assume that the tank will always have Weakened Soul which provies us with 4% more crit, 29% crit would be enough to have Inspiration always up. Not mathematically backed up, I would then start to lean my attention on aquiring more haste to speed up all my casts and therefore ( never underestimate this ) to be able to heal more while being able to cast for a certain time before being forced to move again. I know, this is not a real min/maxing- argument, but I think that it's got its own value, not knowing the content that awaits us in about 1 or 2 months.
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#48 Kaeltala

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 06:08 AM

Icewalker on boots ? I really think we don't need 18 spi...

#49 Sureall

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 01:18 PM

Concerning the mod :
I was effectively thinking more to a WWS tool, or a recount that computes healing after the fights, than to a real-time addon. But I never look at recount during the fights : I'm healing. I look at it when the boss is dead (or I am).


@Sureall :
In fact, I was not precise, but even without cd on penance, the return of haste is still constant in absolute value. One gain the percent of heal without haste. But my post was not clear about this point.

What you speak about is different : haste is good at reacting to burst damage. It's perfectly true : that's why I was saying that healing is more about timing the heal (preventing big strikes, pre-casting, reactive with high hps heals) than raw hps. Your playstyle B has less hps than playstyle A. But at least in some cases, it can be better to keep a tank (or a raid) alive.
These questions are difficult to answer generally with numbers. That's really the question of the damage pattern : how often (and big) are the strikes ? How many HP the players have ? We don't have a generic pattern valuable for all fights.

On Sarth + 3D, there are some very heavy bursty damage you need to prevent / react. If you can keep the tank up with flash (or gh), and the raid healer have enough hps on their own, strategy B is likely to be better than A.
On Sapphiron, if you are raid-healer (as I am, we are 2 disc priest), you need all the hps you can provide on the raid, and there is no burst damage. So I prefer to use penance (and PW:S) on cd to maximize my healing.

Without any clear and valuable damage pattern (as well as player HP, etc.), there is no mathematical definitive answer about haste / crit , and how to heal the best ( it doesn't mean there is no way better than another, or better choices of gear, just that maths aren't helpful there). The only point where you can give mathematical answer is maximizing hps, as you don't care about damage. Then you blow all your cd as they are up (except for combos). But that's not always the best way to heal...


I think this is a great point and something I need to keep in mind and be reminded off. This really emphasizes the need for multiple sets in which you might stack haste/crit or regen.

#50 Sureall

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 01:19 PM

Icewalker on boots ? I really think we don't need 18 spi...


I believe icewalker is the better enchant but that doesn't mean spirit should be ignored.

#51 metapseudo

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 02:22 PM

Concerning the discussion of crit versus haste, I think it should be looked from a different viewpoint then this thread suggests. Main concern as I see it so far is not the fact that discipline healing can provide very high HPS only for very limited time and needs a boost by either haste or crit, but the fact that huge number of healing ends up as overheal.

It is basically the same situation as paladins are facing and it is result of direct character of discipline heals, which are overwriten often with quicker aoe heals or with quicker direct heals.

Best tactics to avoid this as I see it, can not be based on haste, as there is not enough haste gear to stack it so high to be quicker then anybody in the raid. Crit can help a bit due the fact it creates shields and shields prevent damage without overhealing, but the inherent problem here is the fact that divine aegis does not last long enough.

So in my opinion, the ultimate answer to the question Crit versus haste is stacking Spell Power and letting Crit and haste to personal preferences.

On a more general theme of discipline healing:

Best tactics for discipline healing in "normal" situation is using shields as often as CD allows it on targets that are almost sure to be damaged . That should provide enough mana for any other action and prevent substantial damage. And that extra action should be usage of cheap, low healing spells on maximum number of targets. I think improved Renew is one of them as it is possible to keep at least three ticking and Flash Heal cast on targets below 50% health is the second one. Third one is PoM. It ends up in 30-40% overhealing anyway, but it is better then 50% that I see quite often during runs to all current instances.
(There are of course different fights, like Sarthorion with 3 drakes, where bursting PW:S, Penance and GH during Flame Breath is priority No. 1 and the rest is just filler, but that is exception)

Discipline build is utility and special purpose build as I see it, it brings to raids spirit buff, unique shields and capability of burst healing. Those three capabilities are good enough reasons for having discipline priest in raid. His/her total effective healing, combined with damage prevented by shields, provides roughly same amount of damage mitigation as any other healer hence having discipline priest does not mean nerfing of raids healing.
Having more then one discipline priest in raid is I would say contraproductive. There is no synergy of discipline buffs, two priests casting shields will probably end up in casting them on same targets and there is hardly any need for double burst healing.

#52 xeonio

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:31 PM

Hello all, I found this thread and lots of exciting information in it. I wanted to present the data that a friend and myself have come up with through our trials.

Haste v. Crit:
Crit is important but haste is what we look for first. Stacking haste until Flash Heal is at a one second cooldown. Anything more then that is a waste since you can't get the GCD below 1 second. After that we pickup crit.

Personally I heal everything with flash heal. I remember the days of being holy and flash heal being evil, but now with rapture, flash heal glyph, and 28k+ mana raid buffed it is almost a free heal. I usually end Patchwerk at 80m spamming flash heal, penance, and PWS. Yes, that is an overkill on mana regen but I'm well geared. The plus side to ridiculous mana regen means that I can pickup the slack from other healers and that I last a lot longer. This matters on fights like Sarth 3D and Malygos.

The stat weights I use are from dwarfpriest.com. She has a lengthy post HERE about them. This leads to this gear list Discpline Gear List.

IED v. Other Metas:
This is a tough choice and tends to fall a lot to personal choice. This Patchwerk kill is my guilds most recent. Kraylessa and Xeonio are both disc priests. You will find that IED came out to about 28mp5 for Xeonio and 72mp5 for Kraylessa. I would still rather have that then 2% increased intellect or 3% increased crit on my heals.

#53 Imua

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:46 PM

Hmm... I'm not liking some of this discussion that overhealing = bad thing and hence crit gets devalued. Consider that if you are MT healing, overhealing and shields are NOT bad things in the least. Your Divine Aegis shields have a VERY high likelihood of being eaten. And if you think that crit is "bad", then you wouldn't ever get Renewed Hope. (Not saying Renewed Hope is that great, and is usually the first talent to go)

On our last Sarth+3, I had 66% overheal and was lowest on the healing meters. Yet, I had other healers thanking me for showing up as they really didn't have to worry about the MT at all (except when it was their turn for their CD of course). I didn't have to potion, I just had to use 1 shadowfiend, and I was never in any danger of running out of mana. That sounds like the winning situation in my book.

So if you consider that most of the time you'll probably be assigned with healing the tank(s), I don't see as crit being all THAT bad. (Obviously you want a balance)

And hey - sometimes you just have to overheal to keep your Grace up. But mana is a joke now.

#54 fenfire

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 06:45 PM

I have to agree with the poster above me and at the same time with those who devalue crit because of the overhealing aspect.

Overheal is defined as "Every point healed when the target is at full health". This definition involves 2 criteria: "HP healed" and "HP pool of target". So if you are right now seeing a great portion of overheal, keep in mind that the main upgrade in terms of healergear has already been taken: in a best- case- scenario, we are talking about Level 70 Sunwell- gear getting replaced by Level 80 Naxxramas- gear. The tiers of equipment we'll see in the future will not boost our output or manaregen as much as it has happened with the upgrades from X to Level 80- epics. On the other hand, HP- pools tend to grow much faster due to the low itembudget- cost of STA and the fact that the concept of avoidance. tanks has been nerfed quite hard.

To cut it short: a Greater Heal- crit may now seem utterly useless because it will overheal in most cases but as far as we can tell, there will be a time when tanks will pass 50k quite effortless while our Greater Heal will crit for about 2k more than it does right now. Crit will then definetly be better than it may seem right now.

Haste at the same time is much more situational as I already stated some posts ago- given a pragmatical point of view.
Haste basically allows us to cast more heals in a set timeframe. So let's look at the spells we are casting regularly: PW:S and Penance both got a CD that prevents us from spamming and lowers the value of haste for them. So we end up thinking about Flash Heal and this has to be casted while standing still. Encounters in WotLK seem to demand for coordination and therefore running around a lot.
And this is when I feel mathematics really can help us- and especially me: If we just got a set timeframe to heal people up and not regarding PW:S or Penance because we should always have them on CD, which stat will help us more: crit or haste? I don't know. And as long as we are not sure about this, we just can't give out real advice in terms of gearing questions.
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#55 TheDoctor

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 07:40 PM

Generally speaking extreme overhealing is bad, though it doesn't matter as much if you can sustain a high level of overhealing without having mana issues. If Blizz makes mana more of a concern this will matter a great deal more. Though I don't devalue Crit at all based on overheal impact.

What I do have concern in my modelling and math is creating an over-value of crit. Which is highly possible. You say that your DA has a "VERY high likelihood of being eaten" but how likely is it really? I would say that the likelihood of a DA getting used on a tank before expiring is pretty much guaranteed. The real concern is overwriting full shields or partially consumed shields.

Looking at Penance with a Flash before and a Flash after... Penance as a 1.5 second window damage will be taken once and in a 3.9 second window of the total cast sequence twice, there are scenarios where damage will be taken twice / thrice respectively however I didn't model those as extra damage taken between crits does not change the result. As was noted previously damage patterns vary per encounter and there is no ultimate general model. This is for showing that there is reason to devalue crit to some degree.

@30% crit..
During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance
18.9% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite
2.7% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite
During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash
0 crit - 16.8%
1 crit - 36%
2 crit - 30.9%
3 crit - 13.2%
4 crit - 2.8%
5 crit - 0.25%

47.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 16.25% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@35%
During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance
23.89% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite
4.29% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite
During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash
0 crit - 11.6%
1 crit - 31.2%
2 crit - 33.6%
3 crit - 18.1%
4 crit - 4.9%
5 crit - 0.5%

57.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 23.5% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@40%
During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance
28.8% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite
6.4% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite
During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash
0 crit - 7.8%
1 crit - 25.9%
2 crit - 34.6%
3 crit - 23%
4 crit - 7.7%
5 crit - 1%

66.3% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 31.7% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

From this 1% crit makes overwriting DA 2% more likely in general and 1.45% of the time almost a guarantee that it happens at least once. It does reduce the chance of not getting a DA obviously which is good... Though this is why if you consider crit solely on the benefit it isn't being considered properly.

Haste
The only negative impact is when you reach 1 second GCD's - statically not possible in current gear and when fast cast spells Flash Heal reach sub 1 second casts (possible with BT). Haste currently has no point without considering hero/PI/BT/trinkets where the threshold is sustainably reached. I float the line a lot due to BT/Trinket but at those times I don't use Flash heal so I am still gaining benefit from the haste.

The above model for crit is based on 25% haste... It should be noted that adding haste compounds the DA overwrite situation. At 50% static haste what I modeled at 3.9 seconds only takes 3.33 seconds and reduces the number of DA's that could be consumed in the window of applications.


Just some further thoughts on the topic.

#56 Kraylessa

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 09:07 PM

Xeonio mentioned my feelings on the subject in an earlier post, but I want to officially throw my support behind Haste as well. I'm at the point now where I probably am pushing the line of "too much Haste" (sitting at just under 600 unbuffed), so I plan to begin possibly gemming for a bit more Crit and focusing on Crit for some of my remaining slots (OH for example). Personally, getting my Flash Heals down as close to the GCD as I can has been my proiority. I recently dropped my T7.5 in favor of my current gear. This pushed my Haste up quite a bit and I'm happy with it where it is now.

#57 Gor

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:44 AM

Didnt know where to write - here or in Healin Compendium - but as i am DISC priest - ill ask here.

Renew vs FH - it was long discussed over this board. i was reading how FH is superior as compared to Renew - so wanted to test it myself.

My char is not best equipped - we are just clearing 10Naxx, not 25instas yet.

FH Glyphed, Renew glyphed, changed GH to Renew in talants.

number based on last patchwerk stat

FH cost is 690 mana and crit gives 6091 HP max per crit
Renew costs 590 mana and gives 1594 HP per tic. one cast = 4 tics = 6376 HP

Please tell me - what is wrong with my calculation - or WHY renew is worse than FH?

Yes, i know that renew cannot crit - but it is not supposed to replace FH - but add smoothness to healin.
It is may be better use GH in fights as Patchwerk - but in that case haste 10%+ unbuffed is required - otherwise its too much "jumping" in tank's HP.

If it is wrong topic to post to - i am asking admin to move it to right one.

#58 Cydon

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:21 PM

The discussion of renew vs flash heal has always been centered around a holy build. With holy you get serendipity, and a chance to procc both clearcasting and surge of light. For more in-depth analysis and discussion on this particular issue, you should check out the holy healing compendium, as it's been going quite vividly on this very topic lately.

If you want to look at it from a disc priest perspective, you have to take into account rapture gains and a chance to procure a Divine Aegis with flash heal. Personally I always roll some renews, I find it to be decent hps on top of my flash heal/penance/shield "rotation".

#59 Elimbras

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:24 PM

There is 2 missing points in your post.
First is efficiency. Flash heals triggers rapture, renew not. So the real mana cost of flash heal is heavily decreased.

2nd is the benefit of flash heal :
it can crit, and disc crits heal for about twice the amount (including DA). So that's easily 20% more.
It also gives grace and (when crits) inspiration, which are really good buffs for tanks.

This said, on Patchwerk, I do use renew, to pre-heal when I have penance available and that the tank is full. I don't need to precast (I'll use penance as soon as I see damage), and shields and renew (and POM) helps to mitigate the next strike.

Renew is not absolutely bad. It's not interesting to heal a damaged player for disc priest when standing.
It's still the only cd-free heal we have for preemptive healing and instant heal for movement (or vortex).

#60 Sureall

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:47 PM

Generally speaking extreme overhealing is bad, though it doesn't matter as much if you can sustain a high level of overhealing without having mana issues. If Blizz makes mana more of a concern this will matter a great deal more. Though I don't devalue Crit at all based on overheal impact.

What I do have concern in my modelling and math is creating an over-value of crit. Which is highly possible. You say that your DA has a "VERY high likelihood of being eaten" but how likely is it really? I would say that the likelihood of a DA getting used on a tank before expiring is pretty much guaranteed. The real concern is overwriting full shields or partially consumed shields.

Looking at Penance with a Flash before and a Flash after... Penance as a 1.5 second window damage will be taken once and in a 3.9 second window of the total cast sequence twice, there are scenarios where damage will be taken twice / thrice respectively however I didn't model those as extra damage taken between crits does not change the result. As was noted previously damage patterns vary per encounter and there is no ultimate general model. This is for showing that there is reason to devalue crit to some degree.

@30% crit..
During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance
18.9% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite
2.7% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite
During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash
0 crit - 16.8%
1 crit - 36%
2 crit - 30.9%
3 crit - 13.2%
4 crit - 2.8%
5 crit - 0.25%

47.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 16.25% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@35%
During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance
23.89% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite
4.29% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite
During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash
0 crit - 11.6%
1 crit - 31.2%
2 crit - 33.6%
3 crit - 18.1%
4 crit - 4.9%
5 crit - 0.5%

57.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 23.5% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@40%
During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance
28.8% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite
6.4% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite
During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash
0 crit - 7.8%
1 crit - 25.9%
2 crit - 34.6%
3 crit - 23%
4 crit - 7.7%
5 crit - 1%

66.3% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 31.7% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

From this 1% crit makes overwriting DA 2% more likely in general and 1.45% of the time almost a guarantee that it happens at least once. It does reduce the chance of not getting a DA obviously which is good... Though this is why if you consider crit solely on the benefit it isn't being considered properly.

Haste
The only negative impact is when you reach 1 second GCD's - statically not possible in current gear and when fast cast spells Flash Heal reach sub 1 second casts (possible with BT). Haste currently has no point without considering hero/PI/BT/trinkets where the threshold is sustainably reached. I float the line a lot due to BT/Trinket but at those times I don't use Flash heal so I am still gaining benefit from the haste.

The above model for crit is based on 25% haste... It should be noted that adding haste compounds the DA overwrite situation. At 50% static haste what I modeled at 3.9 seconds only takes 3.33 seconds and reduces the number of DA's that could be consumed in the window of applications.


Just some further thoughts on the topic.

Thanks Doctor!

I think it is important to reiterate on the fact that haste will help compound DA overwriting. I always stumbled across several profiles which either completely stack haste or completely stack crit. It may be necessary to model base values in regards to throughput while keeping spell power maximized.

In my opinion : all stats are unbuffed
Base values
Spellpower: 2000(without inner fire)
crit: 20%
haste: 12%

I think once we have values close to this we can justify stacking more crit or more haste depending on your playstyle or the encounter.




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