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3.1 PTR


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#41 constantius

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 05:17 PM

The Glyph is only good if it's minor. Otherwise, it's buffing a SIX MINUTE cooldown ... who cares? CoH is a 6-second cooldown, Flash Heal is GCD, Renew is GCD, and PoH is ~ 2.5 seconds. There's no way you should ever use a major glyph that's so so situational.

Minor, sure.
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#42 Sinndir

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 06:35 PM

the glyph of hymn of hope seems to be quite attractive, but I don't know if it is worth the slot.

It supposes that Hymn of Hope will not be removed as it has been announced.

Glyph of Hymn of Hope - Thottbot: World of Warcraft


Hymn of Hope was removed, it is not in my spellbook on the PTRs

#43 Boondogle

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 07:30 PM

In regards to Hymn of Hope Blue post: "We'll check it out". In addition, there are other classes that are reporting missing spells. I'd chalk it up as being bugged.

#44 dyelynn

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 08:28 PM

While I agree with this in general, I believe that the new Shadowfiend upgrade and forcing us to make choices between talents, might end up killing Dispersion in PvE. Of course it's nice to have an "oh shit" button, but already now is dispersion a fair deal worse then a good timed fiend (6 seconds vs. 1 global cooldown downtime).

That said, I would rather look at something like this. Assuming the mana will continue not be an issue, one might consider moving the two points from Veiled Shadows into Improved Vampiric Embrace.


Your build is pretty standard from any other PvE spec out there, with the exception of dispersion. The dps and mana gain from inner focus every 3 minutes in no way competes with the mana gain and situational usefulness of dispersion.

I would argue that http://talent.mmo-ch...00&version=9614 is a much more realistic baseline build, with plenty of room for customization. But any PvE build that leaves dispersion out, especially with less mana regen (supposedly) and longer fights is fail.

Also, I really fail to see where the devs are "forcing us to make choices between talents". There are dps talents and there are mana regen talents... then there are nice to have but not necessary talents. The only real difference between the tree now and the tree on the PTR is the loss of blackout (5 points) and the addition of imp DP (3 talents). Looked at in that light, we gained 2 free talents.

#45 Tizzlewump

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 08:32 PM

PvE Hunters do.
Until 3.0, they even had to take 20 points in marksman.
Now, they can reduce it to at least 11, and 13 is often better
...
Guess that all dps dk takes also 10+ points in blood.

11 points in resto are mandatory for any PvE (and PvP I suspect) druid spec. But that's also partially for a lack of other interesting points (boomkin).


All warrior specs require 15 points to get Deep Wounds.

All mage specs require 18 points in arcane (excepting the increasingly suboptimal FFB) for Torment the Weak.

Do any warlocks not spend 15 talents in destruction to get Bane+Ruin?

My shadowpriest theorycraft in BC was always very weak, but I do recall an EJ thread with a Sunwell BiS draenei spriest who eventually produced enough VT regen to spec out of meditation. I am not suggesting it could happen with the new VT, but merely to point out that (1) a mandatory regen talent is still slightly more mutable than say a passive 12% damage buff to all your attacks, and (2) Blizzard has never had a problem hamstringing raid builds with cross-tree requirements.

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#46 Tweaksys

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 09:25 PM

I thought I would mention some work I did on PTR. I went in day one when it was up and specced for Disc (which I usually run as) and kept spamming shield the entire time to learn some things. When I went down the line casting PWS on all of my members I noticed of course when the tank's broke I got back mana, waited a while, then my party members bubble's faded and I got the mana back just bam bam bam. The CD must be only on giving target mana, rage, etc. and not on the recieving mana back for shield breaking. With this in mind it looks like a priest could spam cast PWS on a raid at any given downtime and depending on damage or time you will be gaining mana. This could be unintended, who knows, but depending on pool that could be a sizable amount of mana depending on the GCD's you have available to cast it around, really limitless mana since you are gaining more then spending. I did verify with my gear and minimal buffs I was gaining back more mana then I was losing from the spell (Which if u consider being glyphed thats getting paid to put a small heal plus 6ksh shield on X amount of raid members.

#47 ildon

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 09:42 PM

Blizzard has mentioned Omen of Clarity and Ruin as other spec-neutral mandatory talents. This isn't a priest-exclusive complaint. Personally, I just don't see 13 points in discipline being a big deal.

Would we be a stronger class if meditation were moved to tier 1? Sure, a little bit. Would it suddenly make raid leaders go, "Wow, I want 4 priests in my raid instead of 3?" No.


I agree. Where else would these points go? Spell Warding still "wastes" 5 points in holy talents and doesn't really get you anything interesting deeper down. I mean, is 5/0/66 really that more exciting of a build (assuming Meditation was moved to a T1 5 point)? Is eliminating any decision making whatsoever from the shadow tree so you can get everything really interesting/fun on any level? You're still (generally) going to want 57 (58 on PTR currently) in shadow, minimum, to maximize your DPS, and any kind of holy/shadow hybrid build is either going to be a PvP novelty or (based on the current trees) gimp at both aspects in PvE.

What would the real benefit be of releasing those 8 talent points (and let's be honest, it's 8 not 13 because you'd still likely get Twin Disciplines for SW:P/DP/SW:D damage, even if Meditation were simply deleted from the game/made baseline/whatever).
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#48 alinna

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 10:09 PM

Also, I really fail to see where the devs are "forcing us to make choices between talents". There are dps talents and there are mana regen talents... then there are nice to have but not necessary talents. The only real difference between the tree now and the tree on the PTR is the loss of blackout (5 points) and the addition of imp DP (3 talents). Looked at in that light, we gained 2 free talents.


Except for the fact that blackout was never really in the cookie cutter shadow priest build for PvE raiding, so it's questionable that any talents are being freed up here. With a standard 14/0/57 build ignoring Shadow Affinity, it is possible to get all the mana/health regen, DPS talents plus the pushback protection/snare removal from improved Shadowform. It's hard to say what's up first on the chopping block before we get a glance of what Ulduar fight are like, but Inner Focus and Improved Shadowform probably are the first 3 points to go. Cutting out our other mana regeneration talents seems like a bad choice, fights tend to last longer while you're learning them, so while in current content there may be little use for Dispersion or reduced Shadowfiend cooldowns, it's quite likely that may no longer be the case come Ulduar.

#49 Nyxie

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 10:26 PM

I thought I would mention some work I did on PTR. I went in day one when it was up and specced for Disc (which I usually run as) and kept spamming shield the entire time to learn some things. When I went down the line casting PWS on all of my members I noticed of course when the tank's broke I got back mana, waited a while, then my party members bubble's faded and I got the mana back just bam bam bam.


Just to clarify, you were receiving Rapture returns when your shields expired, even if they hadn't been fully consumed?

#50 Tweaksys

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 10:29 PM

Aye. When the shield went away (both from damage and time expiration) I got mana back. As well when I cast a random shield on myself and don't take damage when the shield expires due to time I get the mana back. It appears that the rapture effect for the priest (of receiving the 2.5% mana from shield popping) happens without a cooldown and whether the shield is broken or time expired. We were doing a heroic nexus for my testing otherwise just kind of running around randomly tossing shields on myself as well when doing the new dailies.

#51 Wadis

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 12:48 AM

While the GS glyph is interesting, I still think it will require complicated UI watching to know if your GS cooldown got reset or not. It seems like almost more of a headache than it's worth. While It is definitely a nice one, I don't think it's worth giving up Flash Heal, PoH, or CoH glyphs for.


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#52 Ana

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 06:51 AM

I've played around a bit with serendipity on the PTR and I have mixed feelings about it. You have to cast either one binding heal (assuming that's not bugged) and one fheal at a minimum to get one hasted prayer of healing. The buff lasts for 20 seconds, but is only good for one cast of gheal or PoH. It just seems incredibly spammy. It's a lot of haste, no doubt (I had about 1 second PoH's and 0.8sec gheals), but I'd rather have a haste buff that was less haste for a longer time period. Perhaps something like the pally talent. This just seems almost frenetic and if Blizzard is actually wanting us to be more deliberate about our heals this talent seems to work counter-intuitively to that.

I also have a shaman and when I first saw Serendipity it reminded me a bit of Maelstrom Weapon. The big difference is that Maelstrom procs off things you'd already be doing and Serendipity forces you to cast a certain spell in order to build up a buff totally negating the fact that flash or binding may not be what you would already be casting. You can't build up serendipity by casting Renew or CoH or even gheal. Personally I'd rather cast 3 renews on group 2 and get a fast PoH for group 4 or something that doesn't relegate me to flash heal spamming so I can blow a PoH on the group the shaman already chain healed while I was screwing around w/ serendipity.

#53 Bowchikabow

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 07:10 AM

Just something real fast for those who are testing various aspects of shadow spec. They stated that Spirit Tap, and imp Spirit Tap were getting their regen values buffed. Also, I imagine Dispersion will have several "15sec of fame" moments based on boss spells we currently see from data mining. The big issue is, and has been brought up here and on most subject related forums, is will the change to shadow form kill our crit scaling, or will we see SP give bonus to DoT's. I have 25% crit, 220haste, and I am concerned about the prospect of having to re-gear..... Again. At the bottom of my concern list is where I keep the question of IF affecting DoT criticals.


What I would like to see is testing specifically how the current PTR model crit scaling will affect in-combat class/glyph buffs, and if it was blizzards intention that such buffs be a means to off-set the supposed overall nerf.


edit: I am keeping my original post unchanged, so that my update will make sense.

Ghostcrawler recent posted this in DD forums with regard to the issue of DoT's and scaling with crit


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* 19. Re: 3.1 shadow priest of the future. 02/26/2009 02:12:10 AM EST

quote reply

I think Shadow priests will be in a good place. For PvP they got a much-needed tweak to Psychic Horror, but I won't spoil it here.

For PvE, I think the changes will help their scaling in the long run. I suggested in another thread that we might need to make their Shadow spells crit at 200% in order for the Shadowform change to actually be a buff. But we are fully committed to having the dots crit. The game just works better that way.

The Shadow Ulduar 4 piece set bonus is pretty sweet too.


So we can atleast surmise that they are aware of the scaling issue, and are discussing changes. I guess now it leaves us with wondering whether the 200% will be given to us? Or will the current build be about where we stay?

#54 Luthi

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 03:24 PM

Another interesting factor that I haven't really seen mentioned anywhere, is if the dot is critting, our meta "should" come into affect on those crits, again boosting total damage over the old style of increase dot damage.

#55 dyelynn

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 04:42 PM

Regarding talent changes and cookie cutter specs...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft has been my baseline spec since hitting 80. I was under the impression that this spec was typical of shadowpriests... I personally consider imp-Sform a core talent, because there are so many fights with aoe damage and around 50% of my dps is a channeled spell. Shadow Affinity, Imp-VE, Veiled shadows, and to some extent, shadow reach, are all optional talents. None of them increase your DPS in any way, although shadow reach does allow more flexibility in where you dps, which can be considered a gain.

In TBC, on a fight like Brutallus, I was counted as a DPS and a healer. And a dps or hps multiplier... that can no longer be considered the case. Our hps, even with 2 points squandered in imp-VE isn't even enough to top off warlocks after life-tap anymore. So, picking any talents except those which directly increase dps, either by enhancing damage spells or skills, or increasing mana efficiency, is an optional talent.

My error with blackout is a great point, but even with: http://talent.mmo-ch...00&version=9626 you're really only losing 2 talent points over the baseline current spec, and there's obvious flexibility without losing mainline damage or mana regen talents.

http://talent.mmo-ch...00&version=9626 Is certainly a possibility for max mana regen potential if you're used to staying a little closer (SWD glyphers)... Synergy between Inner Focus and SW:P will decide whether or not it becomes a main line talent, or if it remains an optional slight dps increase or mana efficiency talent.

I'll not argue with the opinion that the shadow tree is bloated, it certainly is, but there is certainly enough flexibility to get everything you think you need to be effective in a raid, progression or otherwise.

#56 Rayyeter

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 07:03 PM

Would the changes in pally aura's decrease the need for improved shadow form (at least in a raid setting)? Yes, the loss of snare removal could be potentially harming, but the loss in cast time from damage isn't very substantial (.1 seconds difference). That could free up two points in a spec to go elsewhere shadow affinity should threat be an issue, or imp VE.

http://talent.mmo-ch...00&version=9626

Is Shadow Reach absolutely necessary or just nice to have? I doubt the necessity of it.
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#57 SaintAlfonzo

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 09:22 PM

note: PoH is an oh @#$% spell for situations like Gluth Decimate and Archavon stomp or Loatheb easy button.

Serendipity has always been kind of a silly use of 3 talents as the best healer in the world will keep the tank at 99% health.

At least now when a bunch of noobs in your Vault pug are standing in the cave-ins on trash you can pop a PoH on them without losing your tank because the other healers are more interested in trading for mage food...

#58 Kobal

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 10:30 PM

Is Shadow Reach absolutely necessary or just nice to have? I doubt the necessity of it.

I personally consider it mandatory, but that is really personal preference. At least I consider it one of the best talents that is not a direct DPS increase.

There are fights where it is worthless (Patchwerk being the prime example) but there are also enough fights with a lot of respositioning (Sapphiron, Sartharion) where it simply allows you to dps 6 yards earlier. Not to forget any fights where the raid has to spread out to avoid nasty chain effects. Here the added flexibility of 6 yards more range is definitely worth it.

#59 atrinitydream

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 10:49 PM

Serendipity has always been kind of a silly use of 3 talents as the best healer in the world will keep the tank at 99% health.


There are plenty of fight mechanics that guarantee that regardless of healer skill target health will be below 50% - Sarth+3D breath healing is probably the best example.

#60 SaintAlfonzo

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 11:27 PM

my point was Serendipity is useless unless you are overhealing.. the 263 mana you got by overhealing with Gheal could have been a 400 mana savings by casting flash heal instead..

either way in my book serendipity is no better or worse than it was before.. all your spiffy mana savings came from SoL and HC anyway




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