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SimulationCraft - for fur and feather wearers


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#1 Starfox

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 12:17 PM

You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks

My infraction count just goes up everytime I reply to anything.
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#2 Skash

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 04:59 PM

Do you happen to have a list of what things are currently not modeled (e.g. Starfall, Treants right before Heroism) and their statuses (e.g. Not developed, Not possible)? While I love using SimulationCraft for all my modeling needs, it would be nice to have a comprehensive list of what its known weaknesses are, outside of the theoretical vs. practical argument.

#3 Celdhyrean

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 07:26 PM

When i tested it last it seemed to give coherent values, but i haven't run detailed comparison with spreadsheets.

One thing i'd like to see though is the ability to use dots at different points in the rotation. It is for example widely accepted that you don't want to have 100% dot uptime if that means refreshing them during/at the 2nd half of an eclipse proc. There's also some debate as to wether we should clip dots at precise points (maximizes uptime but loss of GCDs) or just care less about dot uptime.
The current behavior is enough to give a rough idea of where we'll land in terms of dps but doesn't allow us to test the result of dot management possibilities.
(would be nice if the current action list system would allow for such options. If not, then too bad, but it's still a nice tool)

#4 Erdluf

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 09:40 PM

When i tested it last it seemed to give coherent values, but i haven't run detailed comparison with spreadsheets.

One thing i'd like to see though is the ability to use dots at different points in the rotation. It is for example widely accepted that you don't want to have 100% dot uptime if that means refreshing them during/at the 2nd half of an eclipse proc. There's also some debate as to wether we should clip dots at precise points (maximizes uptime but loss of GCDs) or just care less about dot uptime.
The current behavior is enough to give a rough idea of where we'll land in terms of dps but doesn't allow us to test the result of dot management possibilities.
(would be nice if the current action list system would allow for such options. If not, then too bad, but it's still a nice tool)


You can prevent DoT refreshes during eclipse, just put

/starfire,eclipse=benefit

at the front of your action list (assuming Lunar Eclipse). I don't believe there is currently any support for clipping your DoTs, or looking at actual timers.

I would imagine that syntax for those options would be possible. Something like

/moonfire,eclipse_cooldown=3,clip=7

to mean refresh moonfire during the last 3 seconds of the eclipse cooldown, but only if you are clipping no more than 7s of an existing MF.

The Warlock 2/13/56 configuration file has a cast which is conditional on Bloodlust being active. I don't know if that syntax works for Druid action lists.

#5 Starfox

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 09:55 PM

Do you happen to have a list of what things are currently not modeled (e.g. Starfall, Treants right before Heroism) and their statuses (e.g. Not developed, Not possible)? While I love using SimulationCraft for all my modeling needs, it would be nice to have a comprehensive list of what its known weaknesses are, outside of the theoretical vs. practical argument.

All balance spells are supported except typhoon, all with general options and some with special options, like warth/starfire which can be set to only cast to trigger eclipse for example.
Treants just before bloodlust would need some tweaks in the sim itself i think, so it announces a few seconds earlier that bloodlust will be fired.
I made a wikipage for druids once, but i think it is a bit outdated, I'll look into updating it.
Edit: Well, actually you can throw treants just before bloodlust, with the "health_percentage<=XX" option, because bloodlust is fired when the mob reaches 35% hp.

One thing i'd like to see though is the ability to use dots at different points in the rotation. It is for example widely accepted that you don't want to have 100% dot uptime if that means refreshing them during/at the 2nd half of an eclipse proc. There's also some debate as to wether we should clip dots at precise points (maximizes uptime but loss of GCDs) or just care less about dot uptime.
The current behavior is enough to give a rough idea of where we'll land in terms of dps but doesn't allow us to test the result of dot management possibilities.
(would be nice if the current action list system would allow for such options. If not, then too bad, but it's still a nice tool)

Hm, yea you are probably right, so what options would you appreciate:
just something simple: skip if eclipse active?
or more precise like: skip if eclipse > x seconds?

The Warlock 2/13/56 configuration file has a cast which is conditional on Bloodlust being active. I don't know if that syntax works for Druid action lists.

the bloodlust option is global for all actions
bloodlust=1 ONLY while under the effect of bloodlust
and with one of the latest commits
bloodlust=-1, the opposite, only when not under the effect of bloodlust.
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#6 Celdhyrean

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 10:53 PM

It depends on if we just want to model current "accepted" rotation or work out what rotations could be best.
Currently most moonkins do : no dot clipping, refresh MF once in per cycle (usually right before Eclipse ICD is finished though there are other options) and IS twice (right before Eclipse ICD is finished and at the end of the proc, as soon as the next SF won't benefit from the effect anymore).
If we want to be more flexible, yes it'd have to be a condition based on how far in the Eclipse proc we are (refresh before x, don't refresh after).

In a research scenario, well, we'd need more options, concerning MF specifically. IS is short enough to find an easy place in the cycle.

#7 Starfox

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 12:27 AM

It depends on if we just want to model current "accepted" rotation or work out what rotations could be best.
Currently most moonkins do : no dot clipping, refresh MF once in per cycle (usually right before Eclipse ICD is finished though there are other options) and IS twice (right before Eclipse ICD is finished and at the end of the proc, as soon as the next SF won't benefit from the effect anymore).
If we want to be more flexible, yes it'd have to be a condition based on how far in the Eclipse proc we are (refresh before x, don't refresh after).

In a research scenario, well, we'd need more options, concerning MF specifically. IS is short enough to find an easy place in the cycle.

Ok :)
Implemented new options for IS/MF with r1587 and r1588:
  • skip_on_eclipse
  • eclipse_left>=xx when under eclipse, only cast if min xx seconds are left on the buff
skip_on_eclipse has two possible values
skip_on_eclipse=-1: If an eclipse is up, only cast the dot if the eclipse matches you, MF = +30% SF eclipse, IS = +30% Wrath eclipse
skip_on_eclipse=1: If any of the two eclipse buffs is up, skip the cast

For example:

IS, but only when no eclipse is up
.../insect_swarm,skip_on_eclipse=1/...

MF, not when +30% wrath eclipse is up, and on +30%SF eclipse only when at least 10 seconds are left
.../moonfire,skip_on_eclipse=-1,eclipse_left>=10/...
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#8 Starfox

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:35 PM

New windows-executable for download is up at Downloads - simulationcraft - Google Code
Has everything working I mentoined in the thread.
PTR: Everything except PTR Patch 3.1.0 - Build 9658 changeset is in.

If you wanna run the sim with PTR changes just add
patch=3.1.0
in the config, currently "patch=3.0.9" is the default

I encouraged the projectleader to make at least weekly releases, because i know there are many people who would use it if they don't had to checkout the source and compile it. Hope the downloadable executable for windows will from now on be more up2date for you :)

--------------

Ok, so everything from the PTR is in, also the new Nature's Grace and i ran SimulationCraft with the standard PTR profiles
Gear:
gear_stamina=1000
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=0
gear_intellect=750
gear_spirit=350
gear_attack_power=0
gear_expertise_rating=0
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_spell_power=2000
gear_hit_rating=290
gear_crit_rating=500
gear_haste_rating=500

# Set Bonuses
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1

# Meta Gem
chaotic_skyflare=1

# Item Procs
illustration_of_the_dragon_soul=1
dying_curse=1
Excess hitrating gets converted into additional 30 spellpower.

Profiles:
Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF http://simulationcra..._13_SF.simcraft
Druid_T8_58_00_13_W http://simulationcra...0_13_W.simcraft
T8 here refers to PTR mechanics, SF/W is the main nuke

Output:
SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.1.0 (iterations=5000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1)


DPS Ranking:
  11492 100.0%  Raid
   5813  50.5%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF
   5698  49.5%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_W

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF  DPS=5812.5 (Error=+/-4.6 Range=+/-658)  DPR=18.2  RPS=319.1/275.7  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=65  stamina=1085  intellect=952  spirit=485  health=18472  mana=21529
  Spell Stats:  power=2217  hit=14.1%  crit=18.5%  penetration=0  haste=15.2%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=-400  hit=8.1%  crit=12.7%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=19.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 16.5|18.1sec  DPE= 8743| 8%  DPET= 7418  DPR=30.5  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=106  Tick=1364
    moonfire              Count= 13.2|23.1sec  DPE=10231| 8%  DPET= 8654  DPR=14.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 317  Crit=  663|  731|43.1%  TickCount=94  Tick=1370
    starfall              Count= 80.0| 7.2sec  DPE=  625| 3%  DPET=10182  DPR= 8.8  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 435  Crit=  910| 1598|39.9%
    starfire              Count= 98.3| 2.9sec  DPE=10842|62%  DPET= 5475  DPR=19.5  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6416  Crit=13425|15481|63.2%
    wrath                 Count= 50.0| 5.7sec  DPE= 5264|15%  DPET= 4518  DPR=13.8  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3533  Crit= 7381| 8507|45.0%
   treants
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE= 1631| 4%  DPET= 1120  DPR= 1.$  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1707  Crit= 3413| 3611|8.1%  Glance=1280|24.0%  Dodge=6.5%

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_W  DPS=5697.8 (Error=+/-4.9 Range=+/-756)  DPR=16.9  RPS=336.3/282.1  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=65  stamina=1085  intellect=952  spirit=485  health=18472  mana=21529
  Spell Stats:  power=2217  hit=14.1%  crit=18.5%  penetration=0  haste=15.2%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=-400  hit=8.1%  crit=12.7%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=19.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 21.3|14.1sec  DPE= 8758|11%  DPET= 7431  DPR=30.5  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=137  Tick=1361
    moonfire              Count= 12.1|25.1sec  DPE= 8772| 6%  DPET= 7376  DPR=11.9  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 317  Crit=  662|  731|43.1%  TickCount=74  Tick=1368
    starfall              Count= 72.4| 7.6sec  DPE=  627| 3%  DPET= 9792  DPR= 8.5  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 436  Crit=  915| 1598|39.8%
    starfire              Count= 26.4|10.8sec  DPE= 9429|15%  DPET= 4600  DPR=17.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6223  Crit=13008|14947|47.2%
    wrath                 Count=167.4| 1.7sec  DPE= 6199|61%  DPET= 5340  DPR=16.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4162  Crit= 8701|11311|44.9%
   treants
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE= 1633| 4%  DPET= 1122  DPR= 1.$  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1707  Crit= 3417| 3611|8.2%  Glance=1281|23.8%  Dodge=6.5%

Gains:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_W:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5380.7
        initial_mana=21527.2
        innervate=7790.1
        judgement_of_wisdom=5630.1
        mana_potion=4300.0
        moonkin_form=39912.2
        mp5_regen=4902.8
        omen_of_clarity=5894.1
        replenishment=15927.5

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5372.7
        initial_mana=21527.2
        innervate=7749.2
        judgement_of_wisdom=4858.8
        mana_potion=4300.0
        moonkin_form=38794.7
        mp5_regen=4902.2
        omen_of_clarity=5553.6
        replenishment=15926.7

Procs:

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_W:
        dying_curse=6.2|48.2sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=74.2|4.0sec
        omen_of_clarity=13.3|22.4sec

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        dying_curse=6.0|49.8sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=64.0|4.6sec
        omen_of_clarity=10.4|28.4sec

Up-Times:

    Global:
        100.0% : blood_frenzy
        100.0% : improved_scorch
        100.0% : master_poisoner
        100.0% : savage_combat
        100.0% : totem_of_wrath
        100.0% : winters_chill

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_W:
        51.9% : eclipse_wrath
        78.3% : natures_grace
        100.0% : replenishment

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        52.2% : eclipse_starfire
        78.9% : natures_grace
        100.0% : replenishment

Waiting:
     0.2% : Druid_T8_58_00_13_W
     0.0% : Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF
Starfall numbers can seem weird on the first look.
10 Stars + 10 Splash damage = 20 hits per Starfall, also it's set to skip if eclipse buff is up. So you have 3-4 Starfall casts in a 300 sec fight. :)
Hello.
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For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy

#9 Starfox

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 02:24 AM

http://simulationcra...716-windows.zip
This includes all the changes from PTR Patch 3.1.0, including Build 9658.
IS spellpower coeff => 0.2 per tick
New NG mechanic
Starfall cd => 90sec
Fearie Fire duration => 300sec, with this i also deleted the _FF profile, which should just show how much of an impact it was when a moonkin had to deliver the 3%-hit-debuff. I don't think 1 gcd every 300 seconds is worth an extra profile.

If some ferals could look at the rotation used for the druid in Druid_T8_00_55_16.simcraft, if it is reasonable or way off, feedback is welcome. CatForm dps should be rather complete now.

Latest downloadable executable, with all profiles run on patch=3.1.0 (on detailed reports only druids are shown)

DPS Ranking:
 157968 100.0%  Raid
   6458   4.1%  Rogue_T8_51_13_07
   6417   4.1%  Rogue_T8_07_21_43
   6346   4.0%  Warlock_T8_00_40_31
   6324   4.0%  Warlock_T8_00_41_30
   6319   4.0%  Rogue_T8_51_18_02
   6238   3.9%  Warlock_T8_03_52_16
   6161   3.9%  Warlock_T8_53_00_18
   6152   3.9%  Rogue_T8_18_51_02_S
   6124   3.9%  Rogue_T8_18_51_02_FD
   6086   3.8%  Warlock_T8_00_56_15
   6046   3.8%  Warlock_T8_00_13_58
   6029   3.8%  Rogue_T8_07_51_13
   6016   3.8%  Mage_T8_20_51_00
   5829   3.7%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF
   5752   3.6%  Rogue_T8_18_51_02_BS
   5722   3.6%  Druid_T8_58_00_13_W
   5613   3.5%  Priest_T8_13_00_58
   5612   3.6%  Druid_T8_00_55_16
   5608   3.5%  Mage_T8_57_03_11
   5592   3.5%  Mage_T8_00_53_18
   5587   3.5%  Shaman_T8_16_55_00
   5509   3.5%  Hunter_T8_06_14_51
   5449   3.4%  Mage_T8_52_19_00
   5439   3.4%  Hunter_T8_13_51_07
   5414   3.4%  Shaman_T8_57_14_00
   5239   3.3%  Hunter_T8_53_11_07
   5100   3.2%  Mage_T8_18_00_53

Player=Druid_T8_00_55_16  DPS=5611.9 (Error=+/-3.0 Range=+/-562)  DPR=466.8  RPS=12.0/11.7  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=1165  stamina=1085  intellect=115  spirit=135  health=16105  mana=3742
  Spell Stats:  power=0  hit=10.1%  crit=16.7%  penetration=0  haste=10.7%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=6771  hit=8.1%  crit=29.1%  expertise=6.2  penetration=0  haste=13.9%
  Actions:
    mangle_cat            Count= 14.3|20.8sec  DPE= 4178| 4%  DPET= 2532  DPR=122.9  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2703  Crit= 5874| 6405|46.8%  Dodge=0.3%
    melee                 Count=419.4| 0.7sec  DPE= 1254|33%  DPET= 1838  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 843  Crit= 1830| 2067|47.1%  Glance= 633|24.0%  Dodge=0.3%
    rake                  Count= 19.4|14.9sec  DPE=12625|15%  DPET= 7651  DPR=360.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 755  Crit= 1635| 1998|47.2%  Dodge=0.4%  TickCount=57  Tick=2437  CritTick=5282|5568|52.0%
    rip                   Count= 10.0|28.8sec  DPE=34718|22%  DPET=21041  DPR=1157.3  Miss=0.0%  Dodge=0.3%  TickCount=105  Tick=2054  CritTick=4453|4784|51.9%
    shred                 Count= 70.7| 4.0sec  DPE= 6083|27%  DPET= 3687  DPR=217.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3932  Crit= 8522| 9431|47.1%  Dodge=0.3%

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF  DPS=5828.8 (Error=+/-3.2 Range=+/-817)  DPR=18.3  RPS=318.2/270.7  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=65  stamina=1085  intellect=952  spirit=485  health=16105  mana=21525
  Spell Stats:  power=2217  hit=14.1%  crit=18.5%  penetration=0  haste=15.2%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=-400  hit=8.1%  crit=12.7%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=19.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 15.7|18.5sec  DPE= 8775| 8%  DPET= 7433  DPR=30.5  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=101  Tick=1370
    moonfire              Count= 12.8|23.0sec  DPE=10150| 8%  DPET= 8586  DPR=13.9  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 315  Crit=  660|  742|43.0%  TickCount=90  Tick=1377
    starfall              Count= 65.8| 7.5sec  DPE=  619| 2%  DPET= 9528  DPR= 8.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 432  Crit=  903| 1610|39.7%
    starfire              Count= 95.0| 2.9sec  DPE=10931|62%  DPET= 5532  DPR=19.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6470  Crit=13520|15799|63.3%
    wrath                 Count= 48.2| 5.7sec  DPE= 5289|15%  DPET= 4539  DPR=13.9  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3550  Crit= 7420| 8690|44.9%
   treants
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE= 1567| 4%  DPET= 1072  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1639  Crit= 3281| 3472|8.2%  Glance=1229|24.0%  Dodge=6.6%

Player=Druid_T8_58_00_13_W  DPS=5722.2 (Error=+/-3.7 Range=+/-920)  DPR=17.1  RPS=335.2/276.7  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=65  stamina=1085  intellect=952  spirit=485  health=16105  mana=21525
  Spell Stats:  power=2217  hit=14.1%  crit=18.5%  penetration=0  haste=15.2%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=-400  hit=8.1%  crit=12.7%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=19.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 20.5|14.0sec  DPE= 8811|11%  DPET= 7473  DPR=30.7  Miss=0.0%  TickCount=132  Tick=1371
    moonfire              Count= 11.6|25.3sec  DPE= 8837| 6%  DPET= 7423  DPR=12.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 315  Crit=  659|  742|42.9%  TickCount=71  Tick=1374
    starfall              Count= 64.9| 7.4sec  DPE=  618| 2%  DPET= 9546  DPR= 8.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 431  Crit=  903| 1610|39.7%
    starfire              Count= 25.6|10.8sec  DPE= 9506|15%  DPET= 4647  DPR=17.1  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6272  Crit=13107|15265|47.3%
    wrath                 Count=161.1| 1.7sec  DPE= 6245|61%  DPET= 5379  DPR=16.4  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4197  Crit= 8768|11550|44.8%
   treants
    treant_melee          Count= 42.0| 1.5sec  DPE= 1568| 4%  DPET= 1073  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1639  Crit= 3281| 3472|8.2%  Glance=1230|24.0%  Dodge=6.5%

Gains:
    Druid_T8_00_55_16:
        energy_regen=2830.1
        omen_of_clarity=989.5
        primal_precision=0.8
        tigers_fury=533.1

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_W:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5178.0
        initial_mana=21524.6
        innervate=7799.4
        judgement_of_wisdom=5347.6
        mana_potion=4300.0
        moonkin_form=38360.2
        mp5_regen=4716.5
        omen_of_clarity=5655.0
        replenishment=13522.0

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        blessing_of_wisdom=5173.5
        initial_mana=21524.6
        innervate=7773.9
        judgement_of_wisdom=4464.8
        mana_potion=4300.0
        moonkin_form=37530.7
        mp5_regen=4716.8
        omen_of_clarity=5332.3
        replenishment=13524.6

Procs:

    Druid_T8_00_55_16:
        combo_points=99.1|2.9sec
        darkmoon_greatness=7.0|41.0sec
        omen_of_clarity=24.3|11.8sec
        primal_fury=49.2|5.8sec

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_W:
        dying_curse=5.9|48.4sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=70.5|4.1sec
        omen_of_clarity=12.8|22.4sec

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        dying_curse=5.7|49.8sec
        judgement_of_wisdom=58.8|4.9sec
        omen_of_clarity=10.0|28.6sec

Up-Times:

    Global:
        99.9% : improved_scorch
        84.1% : mangle
        100.0% : totem_of_wrath
        98.4% : winters_chill


    Druid_T8_00_55_16:
        32.3% : berserking_mh
        88.2% : replenishment
        99.2% : savage_roar

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_W:
        52.0% : eclipse_wrath
        77.7% : natures_grace
        88.2% : replenishment

    Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF:
        52.4% : eclipse_starfire
        78.6% : natures_grace
        88.2% : replenishment

    27.8% : Druid_T8_00_55_16
     0.3% : Druid_T8_58_00_13_W
     0.0% : Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF

Scale Factors:
  Druid_T8_00_55_16          strength=0.98  agility=1.04  stamina=0.00  intellect=0.00  spirit=0.00  spell_power=0.00  attack_power_power=0.44  expertise_rating=1.35  armor_penetrating_rating=1.08  hit_rating=0.97  crit_rating=0.91  haste_rating=0.74
  Druid_T8_58_00_13_SF       strength=0.00  agility=0.00  stamina=0.00  intellect=0.57  spirit=0.24  spell_power=1.45  attack_power_power=0.00  expertise_rating=0.00  armor_penetrating_rating=0.00  hit_rating=2.29  crit_rating=0.83  haste_rating=1.10
  Druid_T8_58_00_13_W        strength=0.00  agility=0.00  stamina=0.00  intellect=0.62  spirit=0.30  spell_power=1.41  attack_power_power=0.00  expertise_rating=0.00  armor_penetrating_rating=0.00  hit_rating=2.55  crit_rating=0.92  haste_rating=0.34

For everything, including graphs etc., you can go to SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code
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#10 ramenchef

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 05:59 AM

Previously, you did 2 simulations for Moonkins with one having the Moonkin applying Faerie Fire and one without. Could you do the same for cat dps except with the mangle/trauma debuff? I'm trying to work out why your numbers seem so low for feral dps compared to Nightcrowler's, Toskk's, and Rawr's numbers. They all had feral dps at ~5500 dps on live. With the changes on the PTR so far, they were seeing over 6000 dps sustained. Does the simulator take into account the way the new sunder/ff interact with the new boss armor values? Also, does it take into account the +25% ArP and +30% melee haste from the latest build? Sorry for all the questions. Trying to figure out why the numbers seem off when compared to other people's numbers.

Edit: I finally got to check out the spec used for feral dps. 2 points should be moved out of Furor preferably into Improved Mark of the Wild for a boost in stats. Also, why does TickCrit have 2 values? Is it lower and upper bound instead of average TickCrit? The recommended glyphs are rip, shred, and savage roar instead of the default shred, mangle, and savage roar. Is it possible to have the model use the agility food instead of fish feast?

Edit 2:In the line, actions+=/rip,cp>=5,rip<=6, is rip clipping itself or is the simulation waiting for rip to fall off first before reapplying it? Also, I may be wrong, but it seems the shred glyph maybe modeled improperly? It has 10.0 applications with 105 ticks. That would be an average of 10.5 ticks per rip, putting its average duration at 21. Shred glyph adds at most 6 seconds (3 ticks) to the duration of rip, and that's if you get 3 shreds per rip in. Base duration of rip is 12 seconds. 12+6 =18 second duration at most. I'll try and look at the source code tomorrow morning if I see any other discrepancies.

Edit 3:The line for rake is odd. It only rakes if there is less than or equal to 4 combo points. There also is no parameter to check rake duration. I think it would be more ideal to rake if rake has fallen off instead of when there is less than or equal to 4 CPs.

Edit 4: Hrm, it looks like berserk, the 51 pt talent hasn't been modeled yet? Or is it tied into something else for the time being and just works behind the scene?

Edit 5: Last edit before I go. Are the base melee stats in T8_Melee_Base just stats purely from gear which is then modified by talents and buffs? And I assume since it's only hunters, rogues, and druids at the moment, that AP includes AP from agility? Also, do druids get the base +160 AP from being in cat form? Finally, the stats displayed on the break down under core stats. Are these values buffed or unbuffed?

#11 Starfox

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 12:32 PM

Previously, you did 2 simulations for Moonkins with one having the Moonkin applying Faerie Fire and one without. Could you do the same for cat dps except with the mangle/trauma debuff? I'm trying to work out why your numbers seem so low for feral dps compared to Nightcrowler's, Toskk's, and Rawr's numbers. They all had feral dps at ~5500 dps on live. With the changes on the PTR so far, they were seeing over 6000 dps sustained. Does the simulator take into account the way the new sunder/ff interact with the new boss armor values? Also, does it take into account the +25% ArP and +30% melee haste from the latest build? Sorry for all the questions. Trying to figure out why the numbers seem off when compared to other people's numbers.

The more detailed the feedback is, the better. :)
+30% haste, +25% ArPen are both in.
target_armor=10645
is used in 3.1.0 simulations.

Edit: I finally got to check out the spec used for feral dps. 2 points should be moved out of Furor preferably into Improved Mark of the Wild for a boost in stats. Also, why does TickCrit have 2 values? Is it lower and upper bound instead of average TickCrit? The recommended glyphs are rip, shred, and savage roar instead of the default shred, mangle, and savage roar. Is it possible to have the model use the agility food instead of fish feast?

Talents will be adjusted.
Multiple values always refer to Average|Max.
Glyphs will get changed, food also.

Edit 2:In the line, actions+=/rip,cp>=5,rip<=6, is rip clipping itself or is the simulation waiting for rip to fall off first before reapplying it? Also, I may be wrong, but it seems the shred glyph maybe modeled improperly? It has 10.0 applications with 105 ticks. That would be an average of 10.5 ticks per rip, putting its average duration at 21. Shred glyph adds at most 6 seconds (3 ticks) to the duration of rip, and that's if you get 3 shreds per rip in. Base duration of rip is 12 seconds. 12+6 =18 second duration at most. I'll try and look at the source code tomorrow morning if I see any other discrepancies.

By default all dot/buff actions are skipped if the buff is still active. I'll look into shred glyph extending rip.
actions+=/rip,cp>=5,rip<=6
It's more like, when the druid stops to spend combo points on other finishers. So if rip<=6sec he won't spend any cp on ferocious_bite.

Edit 3:The line for rake is odd. It only rakes if there is less than or equal to 4 combo points. There also is no parameter to check rake duration. I think it would be more ideal to rake if rake has fallen off instead of when there is less than or equal to 4 CPs.

Yea you are right, I also got that form the cat dps thread when i tried to optimise the feral actions myself and it was a dps increase to drop the cp<=4, but that was after the last release. So the latest SampleOutputPTR does not reflect those.

Edit 4: Hrm, it looks like berserk, the 51 pt talent hasn't been modeled yet? Or is it tied into something else for the time being and just works behind the scene?

Modeled and everything, just like above, I even added a conditional to only use it when TF is up, as I read it's best used right after activatin Tiger's Fury.

Edit 5: Last edit before I go. Are the base melee stats in T8_Melee_Base just stats purely from gear which is then modified by talents and buffs? And I assume since it's only hunters, rogues, and druids at the moment, that AP includes AP from agility? Also, do druids get the base +160 AP from being in cat form? Finally, the stats displayed on the break down under core stats. Are these values buffed or unbuffed?

Oh, looks like those 160 AP are not taken into account anywhere in the code. T8_Melee_Base is ONLY stats from gear, all the rest is done by the druid module. AP from agility is there. Those stats should be buffed w/o flask/food.
I'll post a new sim with your changes when I'm ready with them

-----------------------------
New druid profile according to your suggestions:
#!simcraft max_time=300 optimal_raid=1

patch=3.1.0
druid=Druid_T8_00_55_16_M
level=80
talents=http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZvG0cfrz0eR0huAkbAczb
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=blackened_dragonfin
actions+=/cat_form
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/shred,omen_of_clarity=1
actions+=/tigers_fury,energy<=40
actions+=/berserk,tigers_fury=1
actions+=/savage_roar,cp>=1,savage_roar<=4
actions+=/rip,cp>=5,rip<=6,time_to_die>=10
actions+=/ferocious_bite,cp>=5,rip>=5,savage_roar>=6
actions+=/mangle_cat,mangle<=2
actions+=/rake
actions+=/shred
Melee_T7_Base_Gear.simcraft
gear_expertise_rating=200
# Not fair to use the same stats for all melee since Feral Druid needs less expertise.
# Trade expertise for ivalue-equal amount of attack power
enchant_attack_power=+160
enchant_expertise_rating=-80
glyph_rip=1
glyph_savage_roar=1
glyph_shred=1
idol_of_worship=1
main_hand=staff,dps=222.9,speed=2.4,enchant=berserking
Druid_T8_00_55_16 is the same but has mangle completely droped from the rotation.

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.1.0 (iterations=6666, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1)


DPS Ranking:
  13511 100.0%  Raid
   6826  50.5%  Druid_T8_00_55_16
   6695  49.5%  Druid_T8_00_55_16_M

Player=Druid_T8_00_55_16  DPS=6826.4 (Error=+/-4.5 Range=+/-705)  DPR=570.5  RPS=12.0/11.7  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=1165  stamina=1085  intellect=115  spirit=135  health=18472  mana=3746
  Spell Stats:  power=0  hit=10.1%  crit=16.7%  penetration=0  haste=10.7%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=6771  hit=8.1%  crit=29.1%  expertise=6.2  penetration=0  haste=13.9%
  Actions:
    ferocious_bite        Count=  5.5|48.0sec  DPE=14198| 4%  DPET= 8605  DPR= 202.9  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6616  Crit=14428|17262|97.4%  Dodge=0.3%
    melee                 Count=427.8| 0.7sec  DPE= 1328|28%  DPET= 1946  DPR=   1.$  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 889  Crit= 1928| 2174|47.7%  Glance= 667|24.0%  Dodge=0.3%
    rake                  Count= 26.4|11.3sec  DPE=13374|18%  DPET= 8105  DPR= 407.9  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 785  Crit= 1704| 2086|47.4%  Dodge=0.3%  TickCount=77  Tick=2574  CritTick=5585|5840|52.3%
    rip                   Count=  9.1|31.0sec  DPE=50590|23%  DPET=30664  DPR=1825.6  Miss=0.0%  Dodge=0.3%  TickCount=116  Tick=2469  CritTick=5350|5483|52.3%
    shred                 Count= 80.0| 3.6sec  DPE= 6685|27%  DPET= 4051  DPR= 247.8  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4305  Crit= 9331| 9893|47.6%  Dodge=0.3%

Player=Druid_T8_00_55_16_M  DPS=6695.3 (Error=+/-4.3 Range=+/-648)  DPR=561.2  RPS=11.9/11.7  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=81  agility=1165  stamina=1085  intellect=115  spirit=135  health=18472  mana=3746
  Spell Stats:  power=0  hit=10.1%  crit=16.7%  penetration=0  haste=10.7%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=6771  hit=8.1%  crit=29.1%  expertise=6.2  penetration=0  haste=13.9%
  Actions:
    ferocious_bite        Count=  6.6|40.1sec  DPE=14229| 5%  DPET= 8622  DPR= 203.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6613  Crit=14446|17215|97.5%  Dodge=0.3%
    mangle_cat            Count= 24.8|12.0sec  DPE= 4473| 6%  DPET= 2711  DPR= 139.6  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2879  Crit= 6246| 6719|47.6%  Dodge=0.3%
    melee                 Count=427.8| 0.7sec  DPE= 1327|29%  DPET= 1945  DPR=   1.$  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 888  Crit= 1927| 2174|47.7%  Glance= 667|24.0%  Dodge=0.3%
    rake                  Count= 23.8|12.4sec  DPE=13514|16%  DPET= 8190  DPR= 408.4  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 791  Crit= 1714| 2086|47.6%  Dodge=0.4%  TickCount=70  Tick=2604  CritTick=5644|5840|52.4%
    rip                   Count=  9.2|31.1sec  DPE=50310|24%  DPET=30491  DPR=1805.0  Miss=0.0%  Dodge=0.3%  TickCount=116  Tick=2469  CritTick=5351|5483|52.4%
    shred                 Count= 60.3| 4.8sec  DPE= 6671|21%  DPET= 4043  DPR= 291.5  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4301  Crit= 9325| 9893|47.5%  Dodge=0.3%

Gains:

    Druid_T8_00_55_16_M:
        energy_regen=2842.9
        omen_of_clarity=1003.8
        primal_precision=1.3
        tigers_fury=572.5

    Druid_T8_00_55_16:
        energy_regen=2850.6
        omen_of_clarity=1009.2
        primal_precision=1.2
        tigers_fury=575.0

Procs:

    Druid_T8_00_55_16_M:
        combo_points=124.8|2.3sec
        darkmoon_greatness=7.0|41.8sec
        omen_of_clarity=24.8|11.8sec
        primal_fury=51.8|5.6sec

    Druid_T8_00_55_16:
        combo_points=120.8|2.4sec
        darkmoon_greatness=7.0|41.8sec
        omen_of_clarity=24.9|11.7sec
        primal_fury=50.6|5.8sec

Up-Times:

    Global:
        100.0% : blood_frenzy
        100.0% : mangle
        100.0% : master_poisoner
        100.0% : savage_combat
        100.0% : totem_of_wrath

    Druid_T8_00_55_16_M:
        32.1% : berserking_mh
         4.0% : energy_cap
       100.0% : replenishment
        99.0% : savage_roar

    Druid_T8_00_55_16:
        31.7% : berserking_mh
         3.4% : energy_cap
       100.0% : replenishment
        99.3% : savage_roar
Waiting:
    21.1% : Druid_T8_00_55_16_M
    23.5% : Druid_T8_00_55_16

Rip is the only action with 0.4% dodges, weird, I'll try to figure out why.
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#12 Allev

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 01:15 PM

- Use rip glyph instead of mangle glyph. Also, change the mangle refresh to 1.
- Does your formula use any kind of energy pooling? The mangle uptime is low and I can't tell if there's advanced prediction energy holding, but a common decision a feral makes is "I have 45 energy and mangle expires in 3 seconds, do I shred?" The answer is no, but the simulated feral would do it. Ferals also want to pool energy if they have 5 CP instead of wasting the combo point. The code for shred might be:
actions+=/shred,berserk=1
actions+=/shred,mangle>=3,rake>=3, CP<=4
actions+=/shred,energy>80

- You shouldn't refresh Rip, let it tick out. Half the time the game won't even let you refresh it because it's a weaker spell, since your AP is lower due to procs. It's causing the simulation to never FB. Change your thresholds on FB to Rip > 12, energy <45, SR >6, berserk=0
- every DPS feral will have Feral Swiftness, at the expense of Feral Aggression or Improved Leader of the Pack.

#13 Starfox

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 01:58 PM

- Use rip glyph instead of mangle glyph. Also, change the mangle refresh to 1.
- Does your formula use any kind of energy pooling? The mangle uptime is low and I can't tell if there's advanced prediction energy holding, but a common decision a feral makes is "I have 45 energy and mangle expires in 3 seconds, do I shred?" The answer is no, but the simulated feral would do it. Ferals also want to pool energy if they have 5 CP instead of wasting the combo point. The code for shred might be:

actions+=/shred,berserk=1
actions+=/shred,mangle>=3,rake>=3, CP<=4
actions+=/shred,energy>80

- You shouldn't refresh Rip, let it tick out. Half the time the game won't even let you refresh it because it's a weaker spell, since your AP is lower due to procs. It's causing the simulation to never FB. Change your thresholds on FB to Rip > 12, energy <45, SR >6, berserk=0
- every DPS feral will have Feral Swiftness, at the expense of Feral Aggression or Improved Leader of the Pack.

Rip is not clipped, the profile was pretty weird when the latest SampleOutputPTR was generated, I read a bit in the cat dps thread and started to tune it a bit.
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#14 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 02:33 PM

Given shred glyph, rip glyph and T7 bonus, 13 tick rips are possible.....

rip and rake cannot be clipped without beating on their ready() methods pretty hard....

So.... that rip<= conditional in the rip attack isn't doing anything. Given the

I've moved faerie_fire and mangle to the Globals_T8.simcraft on the assumption that a feral tank will be keeping them up...... but it would be nice to have a Cat profile that manages these just so we can see how the AI changes.

EDIT: The level-based AP is included:

double druid_t::composite_attack_power()
{
  double ap = player_t::composite_attack_power();

  double weapon_ap = ( equipped_weapon_dps - 54.8 ) * 14;

  if ( talents.predatory_strikes )
  {
    ap += level * talents.predatory_strikes * 0.5;
    weapon_ap *= 1 + util_t::talent_rank( talents.predatory_strikes, 3, 0.07, 0.14, 0.20);
  }

  ap += weapon_ap;

  return ap;
}


#15 Allev

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 03:23 PM

Sorry about that Starfox, I hadn't seen your reply to Ramenchef before I posted. That teaches me to preview my posts!

I think I misunderstood (and still am not quite clear about) how that profile works-- I looked at the Google Code page and didn't see any advice on what was going on... You said it "crawls down until it finds something it can do" in the first post here, so I assumed it just processed the whole thing trying to find an attack it liked. But to Ramenchef you're saying, it'll wait at a line if it meets the condition but the debuff isn't down yet? Specifically:
-Savage Roar-- once you get 4 seconds away from the debuff dropping, it doesn't do any other attacks? Or does it only stop finishers (i.e., it will refresh mangle/rake, or shred if it gets to 42 energy)?
-Mangle-- when it's 2 seconds away from expiring, it stops doing other CP-generating attacks? (I.e., Rake expires in 1 second, mangle in 2; you have 42 energy-- does it shred immediately/mangle after energy regen, rake in 1/mangle in 2, or mangle in 2/rake in 3?)

Some other advice, regardless of the answers to the above:
-Ferocious bite consumes all your energy, every time you use it (and converts extra energy to damage, but poorly.) So, you don't want to use it above 40-45 energy (when berserk is down), and never when berserk is up (lag will make it waste too much energy).
-Something needs to be done about rake uptime-- it's applied every 12 seconds in the mangle model, which is below what most ferals average, and given the DPE, you can probably reduce shreds. Increasing rake uptime should show an increase in damage.
- DOT tick crits: These are consistently about 5% above the crit percentage of normal attacks. Is this how it works in-game? If it hasn't been researched, I'd probably go with the assumption that they suffer the same crit penalty that normal attacks do.

#16 Starfox

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 03:39 PM

EDIT: The level-based AP is included:

That is Predatory Strikes, Level*50/100/150% as AP, but Cat Form
It is basically another Level*2 as AP, the spell says 40 AP on wowhead because you get Cat Form at level 20.
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#17 ramenchef

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 04:14 PM

Ok, I see how the duration check works. I agree with the energy pooling suggested earlier, though pooling 80 energy for shred seems excessive. I've found 66 to be a more reasonable number as you use 42 energy for shred, leaving you with 24 energy left. With the GCD, you will be at 34 energy, enough energy for a Mangle, Savage Roar, or Rip if need be.

To the poster above noting the T7 bonus, this particular set of data assumes roughly T8 quality gear, so it's assuming no 2 piece T7 bonus.

For ferocious bite, I would recommend 6 ticks (12 seconds) left on rip before attempting to use it.

Looking for your AI for the dps module, it seems for the most part fine. The one big thing I would recommend is to have energy checks when waiting for rip and/or savage roar to expire. You don't ever want to cap out on energy, which I don't see explicitly modeled, but I could be wrong. So, I'd say shred if it would prevent you from capping on energy and/or do a rake if it falls off and you have enough energy and GCD(s) to reapply it and still execute the finisher(s) without costing uptime. Other than that, everything looks solid.

Edit: To the poster above, it is perfectly fine to use Ferocious Bite during Berserk if you meet certain criteria that are adjusted accordingly. Nightcrowler theorycrafted this list a bit ago. It probably needs to be readjusted for the new 3.1 numbers, but here is the jist of it.

Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 1, Rip debuff counter: 18, RIPvsFB: 157
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 2, Rip debuff counter: 16, RIPvsFB: 137
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 3, Rip debuff counter: 14, RIPvsFB: 116
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 4, Rip debuff counter: 12, RIPvsFB: 96
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 5, Rip debuff counter: 10, RIPvsFB: 75
Use Ferocious Bite , Rip ticks: 6, Rip debuff counter: 8, RIPvsFB: 55
Use RIP, ticks: 7, Rip debuff counter: 6, RIPvsFB: 34
Use RIP, ticks: 8, Rip debuff counter: 4, RIPvsFB: 14
Use RIP, ticks: 9, Rip debuff counter: 2, RIPvsFB: -6
Use RIP, ticks: 10, Rip debuff counter: 0, RIPvsFB: -26


Rip ticks is how many ticks have happened. Rip debuff counter is how many seconds of rip are left. Given that, Ferocious Bite should be used when the rip conditional is met and current energy levels are less than the RIPvsFB value. Of course, these numbers need to be readjusted for the 3.1 patch numbers and for the reduced energy cost of FB during Berserk.

#18 charriu

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 04:48 PM

To the poster above noting the T7 bonus, this particular set of data assumes roughly T8 quality gear, so it's assuming no 2 piece T7 bonus.


In fact, that's not true. Druid_T8_00_55_16.simcraft includes Melee_T7_Base_Gear.simcraft, which has the following statements in it:
# Set Bonuses
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1


#19 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 04:55 PM

In fact, that's not true. Druid_T8_00_55_16.simcraft includes Melee_T7_Base_Gear.simcraft, which has the following statements in it:

# Set Bonuses
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1


Yeah.... We're still using "T7" level gear from now until we get a better picture. We needed a second set of profile names, so we went with the T8 notation with the assumption that the gear would be updated later.

#20 Starfox

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 04:55 PM

Looking for your AI for the dps module, it seems for the most part fine. The one big thing I would recommend is to have energy checks when waiting for rip and/or savage roar to expire. You don't ever want to cap out on energy, which I don't see explicitly modeled, but I could be wrong.

The last line
actions+=/shred
If every finisher is not ready due to some conditional, then it will always try to shred, even with 5cp.
Only dots have a default setting which prevents clipping, if you don't want cp-generating moves at 5cp you have to specify it individualy with cp<=5.

Also i updated the run of the sim, as it turned out i forgot to add the additional energy burned by FB to the stats module, so the DamagePerResource value was way to high for it.

And yea, dot crits seem to have to high critrates because they do not take the critreduction vs mobs which are above you in level into account

Nate implemented a energycap uptime:
    Druid_T8_00_55_16_M:
        32.1% : berserking_mh
         4.0% : energy_cap
       100.0% : replenishment
        99.0% : savage_roar

    Druid_T8_00_55_16:
        31.7% : berserking_mh
         3.4% : energy_cap
       100.0% : replenishment
        99.3% : savage_roar
so 3-4% of the time the druids actually are energy capped
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